Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

[kahuna's bro]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

most players may have weanted there game in the here and now,not the far future

[Haerandir]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

A pity' date=' that - [i']Galactic Champions[/i] has potential, but it just died in its tracks. This is off-topic I know, but... why?

Was it due to its 'oh, by the way, the magic is going to go away and all powers will go with it and you can't stop it' plot device?

 

I suspect it boils down to 'too narrowly-focused'. Ultimately, it was driven by a combination of setting plus power level. If it had covered a broader range of topics (including space adventure in different eras, time travel, alternate universes, etc.), it might have appealed to more people. I bought the book, but I've never actually made use of it. I think I'd have gotten more out of a broader, "Cosmic Champions" book, even if that meant it was twice as long and cost more.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

I suspect it boils down to 'too narrowly-focused'. Ultimately' date=' it was driven by a combination of setting plus power level. If it had covered a broader range of topics (including space adventure in different eras, time travel, alternate universes, etc.), it might have appealed to more people. I bought the book, but I've never actually made use of it. I think I'd have gotten more out of a broader, "Cosmic Champions" book, even if that meant it was twice as long and cost more.[/quote']

 

Which is funny, because I think I'd have gotten more out of an "Epic Champions" book, which didn't restrict itself to cosmic settings but instead focused on highly experienced/powerful superheroes and how to "run" for them. Of course, one could also separate out "setting" and "power level" and publish 2 books, but perhaps there's a concern that the market for both individually would be too small. I think sometimes one has to foster markets rather than just follow them, though.

[casualplayer]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

For a book to be successful, it has to have player appeal. Players already know how to ratchet up the points and power, so they don't need a book telling them how to do it. if you put out a book with a whole new level of power and abilities, we all know players who would have to try to submit characters that would be that new level plus just a smidge. Pro from Dover arms race until everyone is throwing 30d6 blasts.

 

A book about reining in and channeling these power levels into interesting games would be very helpful to GMs but wouldn't sell enough to keep the lights on.

 

The problem I have with the most recent Dr. Destroyer is that he is built only to fall to hammer tactics. There aren't enough chinks in his armor. He doesn't even have the limitations of having armor anymore! A character playing with power levels that can hurt Dr. D would turn Eurostar into a smear, so I have to modify one or the other or put a lot of conditional modifiers on my players. +10d6 Only vs. Former Nazi Super Scientists? 1 Recovering Charge Super-Push powers "to their limits and Beyond!?"

 

Steve mentioned Firewing being the premier energy blaster in the CU but he comes in a distant second to Destroyer.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

You need about 14 DC to get 5 stun per hit through, and a 9 OCV to hit every other time. I think that's probably the bare minimum requirement, per PC, for facing down Dr. D. A 14d6 attack or equivalent, and a 9 OCV with it. Assuming he takes out one PC per each of his phases, we can do the math to figure out how many PCs or PCs+NPC heroes there need to be to bring him down in one or two turns. 10 PCs on Segment 12 means 4 or 5 hits for 20-25 stun(which he recovers immediately). 8 PCs left on Segment 2(minus 1 whose only job is to drop the force wall), means another 4 hits for 20 stun. 7 PCs left on Segment 4 means another 4 hits for 20 stun, 40 stun total at this point, with no pushing involved. 5 PCs left on Segment 6 means maybe 3 hits for another 15 stun, 55 stun total at this point(I think DD has 100?), and at this point DD may consider a tactical withdrawal. If he doesn't, though, 4 PCs left on Segment 8, this time pushing their attacks, means another 15 stun, 70 total. 3 PCs left on Seg 10, 2 pushed hits, another 15 stun, 85 total. 1 PC left on Seg 12, 1 pushed hit, another 7 or 8 stun, and DD is almost out. Of course, then he gets a recovery and by Segment 2 he's finished off the last hero. But if you change a few things here and there, a team of 10 PCs, with an OCV of at least 9 each, throwing a base 14d6 each, with most having a SPD 6, would have a decent chance to take him down. Of course, this is predicated on him not going all-out munchkin with his gadget pool, not switching on his 1 turn tactical computer, and not using multi-hero attacks every phase. Factor that stuff in, and you might need twice that many heroes to win. I do have high confidence that a group of 25-30 heroes with those minimum stats would bring him down, though.

A couple healers, missile deflectors, force wallers, entanglers, attack "buffers"(i.e., with power to boost another hero's attack), special attacks bypassing damage reduction or regular defenses, etc. could really make a difference. But I can't see taking him on with, say, only 6 PCs in that range and expecting to win.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

For a book to be successful, it has to have player appeal. Players already know how to ratchet up the points and power, so they don't need a book telling them how to do it. if you put out a book with a whole new level of power and abilities, we all know players who would have to try to submit characters that would be that new level plus just a smidge. Pro from Dover arms race until everyone is throwing 30d6 blasts.

 

A book about reining in and channeling these power levels into interesting games would be very helpful to GMs but wouldn't sell enough to keep the lights on.

 

The problem I have with the most recent Dr. Destroyer is that he is built only to fall to hammer tactics. There aren't enough chinks in his armor. He doesn't even have the limitations of having armor anymore! A character playing with power levels that can hurt Dr. D would turn Eurostar into a smear, so I have to modify one or the other or put a lot of conditional modifiers on my players. +10d6 Only vs. Former Nazi Super Scientists? 1 Recovering Charge Super-Push powers "to their limits and Beyond!?"

 

Steve mentioned Firewing being the premier energy blaster in the CU but he comes in a distant second to Destroyer.

 

 

Well, a book on how to write up interesting, well-rounded, playable high-powered PCs, how to role-play megaheroes and iconic heroes, some interesting sample abilities for mega-heroes to have, how to grow a PC organically over time including how to grow the original concept into the point level, some sample writeups that aren't just 400 pointers scaled up but cause the reader to say "wow, that's different, never would have thought of doing that" and "that guy has a cool back story"; tips for GMs on running those campaigns, including tweaking the parameters of the campaign world(setting it in the far future, changing tech levels, how mega-supers might change the world, etc.), imaginative use of HAPs, alternative experience award models(e.g., going up 1 to 5% per session instead of 1 to 5 points), alternative ways of balancing mega-PCs, streamlining combats, etc.

 

It should occur to both players and GMs that there's not really any formal book giving advice to people with very long term campaigns(5-10 years or more), where perhaps the PCs have earned 200-1000 xp or more, and everyone wants to avoid getting into a rut, they're dealing with mechanical or balance issues that most younger campaigns don't encounter, they have to figure out--if someone wants to bring in a new PC--what point level is fair, etc. This book would also address issues like that.

My experience with high-level games is that the Pro from Dover thing comes up a lot less often than you might imagine. Give everyone a niche to fill, enough points to build to concept, and they mostly focus on the role-playing, actually, IME. As I've said before, there's nothing inherently more or less virtuous, respectable, fun, or genre-consistent about the number of dice or number of points a campaign setting or PC is. The Hero System could set damage at 1d6 per point of power, or 1d6 per 30 points of power, and it shouldn't affect how different point levels are perceived.

[dmjalund]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

I think it was a mistake to try and put all the campaign backgrounds in the same universe.

 

A "Champions 2099" type of background would be interesting

 

also having a Shadowrun type campaign should not be avoided just because it would overlap with Cyber HERO

[Nuclear Fridge]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

I have to agree with you, dmjalund. I remember viewing the 'timeline of the Hero Universe' the first time and going, "uh?!?"

 

Cyber Hero, Star Hero, ok, one of these can lead to the other... but trying to bolt everything together in one dimension/reality/historical sequence?

 

Still, there's no universal Continuity Patrol out there that will enforce The Way Things Are upon us (I hope).

 

But heading back on topic... if anyone out there is going to run Galactic Champions before 3,000 rolls around, what about another legacy from the distant past?

Yes, Albert Zerstoiten cheated death. Prepare for... The Download of Dr. Destroyer!!!

[palaskar]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Here are my solutions to Dr. D:

 

'The Power of stupidity": Int Drain, Penetrating (x2 of necessary, long lasting. Let's face it, the biggest threat from the good doctor is not his powers, but his mind.

"Sonic Resonance Disruption": Suppress/Drain Damage Reduction (or whatever was done to Takofanes (sp?) in the Dr. Destroyer vs. Takofanes thread.)

"Drop the Hammer": massive player attacks, preferably co-ordinated.

 

"Spatial Manipulation": Telescopic Vision plus Flight Usable Against Others, Lots of Megascale. "I aim the good Doctor at Pluto...and fire." This also can be done by sending the Doctor into the supermassive black hole in the center of the galaxy. You can also do a Megascale Teleport UAO to send the Doctor to the same black hole.

 

"Hey Takofanes!": Get Takofanes (or whatever other Dr. Destroyer-level PC enemy) to fight the good Doctor. "Hey Mechanon, Dr. Destroyer want to save all organic life -- so he can rule it!" "Hey Takofanes! Dr. Destroyer thinks you're a crusty old geezer!"

 

That last one doesn't seem too probable to me, but the first two seem to be reasonable tactics.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Pay Grond to do it. In Pie.

 

~Rex

 

Mongo like candy!

 

[Dr. Hercules]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

One time, when we were facing off against DR. D, Tomorrow Boy was frantically trying to modify a gadget to teleport the good Dr. into space. It was going to be a delaying tatic, the theory being that Destroyer could survive in space but it would take him awhile to get back so we could take care of the mcguffin and get out of there. (Yes, I know that DR D would probably teleport back lickety-split, but TB has arrogant and overconfidence as disads). Unfortunatly, the rest of the team defeated him before I could finish even crunching the numbers, and he turned out to be a robot. A robot that started counting down......

 

We have always been wary of DR. D, even afraid when he shows up, no matter how many times we drive him off. Even with our higer power levels we stil are like "Oh, &*%$! It's Dr. Destroyer!"

Probably because the Gm threw him at us at somewhat lower levels. Nothing motivates one to victory like thinking how one is going to save ones a$$.

[assault]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

'The Power of stupidity": Int Drain' date=' Penetrating (x2 of necessary, long lasting. Let's face it, the biggest threat from the good doctor is not his powers, but his mind.[/quote']

 

Nice. He might go berserk at you, but he might also decide to run away rather than be hit by it again.

 

I'm not a big fan of Drains and so on, especially the kind that would work against Dr D, but I would be prepared to make an exception in this case...

 

"Hey Takofanes!": Get Takofanes (or whatever other Dr. Destroyer-level PC enemy) to fight the good Doctor.

 

Yep. In fact this gets in to the whole area of roleplaying based solutions, which would be the best way to deal with him.

 

...

 

On other posts in this thread: engaging in a stand up fight wouldn't really be a good idea unless the PCs have quite a few points under their belts, or unless the GM has done a lot of rewriting of the Doc's character sheet. If, however, either or both of those apply, many of the tactics people have suggested could work.

 

Specifically, I would suggest a real Speedster (a Flash-type) would be the best candidate for the Annoying role. Basically, one with a Desol-based "vibration" power who wouldn't be affected by the first hit, and then require the Doc to choose an attack that would work against him. If the speedster was awesome enough, he might even be able to match the Doc in terms of CV and SPD.

 

...

 

I'd still look at the roleplaying solutions, though. That means that the GM needs to think about ensuring that they exist, or else the PCs are going to be hammered into mush.

[palaskar]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Forgot about the role-playing solutions...

 

there goes my plan to get help from Professor Preserver (sp)? from the "good but under siege dimension." (Really, there is such a character in the "Dimesional Champions" 4th ed. setting or whatever it was called. He's never been statted (sp?) because he so damn insecure about the world going to pot, and he being the reason why. Also, IIRC, he was a brain in a vat. STill having a NPC that smart is helpful to any team of heroes.)

[Nuclear Fridge]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

It was Champions in 3D, palaskar. Basically, the Original Star Trek story where Kirk and the Enterprise went around oppressing & destroying in the name of Imperial Earth. Your PC heroes are total swine serving a psychotic Golden Avenger, who has had 'Professor Preserver' torn to bits & his brain stuck in a jar.

 

Mechanon is a good guy with Code vs. Killing, the 4th ed. Champions are a goon squad into drug abuse, murder, and betrayal... More than a bit Iron Age, actually.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

It was Champions in 3D' date=' palaskar. Basically, the Original [i']Star Trek[/i] story where Kirk and the Enterprise went around oppressing & destroying in the name of Imperial Earth. Your PC heroes are total swine serving a psychotic Golden Avenger, who has had 'Professor Preserver' torn to bits & his brain stuck in a jar.

 

Mechanon is a good guy with Code vs. Killing, the 4th ed. Champions are a goon squad into drug abuse, murder, and betrayal... More than a bit Iron Age, actually.

 

The whole Iron Age feels like "Spock with a beard", frankly.

[Nuclear Fridge]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

The whole Iron Age feels like "Spock with a beard"' date=' frankly.[/quote']

 

But with Way Kewl RKA Badness Stuck On All Over...

[Rapier]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

I've only gone up against him the onetime, and that was back in 4E (circa 1992).

 

The key was everyone going defensive (Dodges, Blocks and Dive 4 Covers) until one of the Entangles could land. Then we relied on significant stacked Entangles. Two characters did nothing but fire off Entangles to keep him held down. He would blow his entire action (or 1/2 +) breaking free only to have us hit him with another round of Entangles.

 

The bricks Haymakered every strike while the MA Found Weakness and I pinged away with my Ego Attack.

[palaskar]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Well, there's always this:

 

Please Mommy, Don't Hurt Me!: PRE Drain or Transfer, w/ penetrating (x2 if necessary), long-lasting perhaps.

 

I'd never allow this, because it totally breaks Dr. Destroyer's concept of being the most bad-ass villain of the modern age. I'd say he has a Dispel (or the like) in one of his bases, frex. He just has to work up the courage to use it.

 

That and the PC stupid enough to do will create of TPK (or worse, see below) of epic proportions. Here' the list I drew up, in increasing level of nastiiness:

 

1) Death From Above!:Orbital laser

2) BOOM!: Multi-megaton nuke

3) Human Extinction Attack!: Kill 90% of humanity (like in The Island of Doctor Destroyer module)

4) Dimensional Portal/Really Big Hyperspace Sign: Summon Azozoth (sp?)/Galactus-analogue or the like

5) The Cable Option: Go back in time, clone the offending character, switch the babies of the playing character PC is the clone, train and modifier the real character is a drooling, deformed "attack dog" who obeys all the Doctor's whims and attacks the PCs on a regular basis. The "attack dog" will, of course, be really hard to kill, but easly to splatter so the Doctor can beat him. Again and again and again.

 

Actually, #5 seems interesting, despite being like several Iron Age stories. (Which was not intentional, really. Except for Cable.)

[Nuclear Fridge]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Aw, now my 'ultimately collectable' collection of 397 variant covers for the same terrible pilot issue of X-F@rce Ultimate MegaHotness is now worth nothing.

But the 'deformed, drooling attack dog' descriptor sums up Iron Age in a nutshell...

[phydaux]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

I had a team go up against Dr. D in a recreation of the old "Island of Dr. Desrtoyer" adventure using the 5th Ed. rule set.

 

It was... bad.

 

One hero almost got gaked before the team even made it to Destroyer.

 

When they finally met The Good Doctor himself, he just toyed with them by firing AOE after AOE and laughing. PCs kept getting phased again and again and couldn't do anything.

 

Then, as luck would have it, one PC ended up not being in the AOE for two attacks in a row, and actually got an action phase. She put everything she had into an attack. Not at the Destroyer, but at the island nuclear reactor's coolant circulation pump.

 

Reactor overheated and the automatic safeties shut it down. No more propultion for the island. No power for the energy cannons. No more radar to guide the cruise missles. Destroyer fires off one last volly of AOE attacks to stun the PCs, then escapes just as the Navy brings the Battleships into 16" gun range.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

One hero almost got gaked before the team even made it to Destroyer.

WTF? Why?

 

When they finally met The Good Doctor himself' date=' he just toyed with them by firing AOE after AOE and laughing. PCs kept getting phased again and again and couldn't do anything.[/quote']

Maybe it's just me, but this doesn't really sound like how Dr. D would act based on how he is described in CKC. YMMV of course.

[phydaux]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

WTF? Why?

 

Remember those cruise missles I mentioned? There were also SAM missles. 6d6 AOE RKA, and the character had no rPD. ouch

 

 

Maybe it's just me' date=' but this doesn't really sound like how Dr. D would act based on how he is described in CKC. YMMV of course.[/quote']

 

I figured he was arrogant and megalomanical. His Doom Rays would kill any of the PCs outright, so I had him toy with them with AOE attacks that kept then helplessly phased. First one side of the room to phase half the team, then the other side of the room to phase the other half before the first half could recover. Chipping away at their Stun all the while.

 

And it was working, right up until I misjudged the AOE radius and missed one PC twice in a row. And that player, heroicly, made the choice "The mission is more important than all our lives" and did the one thing that could disable the whole island.

 

I think at that point at least two PCs were already deep unconcious. Several had managed to pull together an action phase here or there, but each of them spent it attacking Destroyer personally. He'd just laugh it off and stun half the team with another AOE.

 

Then boom one well placed shot and out go the lights. When the player explained to me what she was doing, I gotta tell ya, I laughed like a bastard.

 

And the PC that pulled this off was also the one that almost died earlier in the game. So it was just too awesome that she was the one to defeat The Destroyer's plan.

 

He could have wiped out the whole team before leaving, but he knew that the Navy had A10s inbound with lots of 2000lb bombs. The few that were still concious carried the rest of the team back to the aircraft carrier.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Remember those cruise missles I mentioned? There were also SAM missles. 6d6 AOE RKA' date=' and the character had no rPD. [i']ouch[/i]

Still utterly confused. What, exactly, does that have to do with the character stripping?

[Chimera 12]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Still utterly confused. What' date=' exactly, does that have to do with the character stripping?[/quote']

 

I think I see the confusion. The "gaked" in the original post is, as I read it, a typo for "ganked"...not, as you seem to think, for "naked". Different things altogether.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

I think I see the confusion. The "gaked" in the original post is' date=' as I read it, a typo for "ganked"...not, as you seem to think, for "naked". Different things altogether. [/quote']

That would be it. Apparently my reading comprehension drops when I’m working 12 hour shifts... We really need a :facepalm: smiley...