Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

[megaplayboy]

With Champions Villains (and new 6th edition writeups of old favorites) on the way soon, just thought I'd throw this out there. Given how overwhelming Dr.D's writeups have been since the high-end version in 4th edition, and that he's supposed to be stomping around the Champions Universe...and any campaigns set in the CU, how would this guy get beaten in a straight, stand up fight? What would a group (or groups) of heroes (PC and NPC) need to bring to the table in order to face him down, in terms of:

1. power level(damage classes or active points)?

2. numbers(assuming anything over "2 or 3 dozen" is the same as "an infinite number of heroes")?

3. CV and SPD?

4. Powers and abilities?

5. Tactics?

 

Lastly, if someone has successfully beaten either the high-end 4th ed. Dr. D, or any of the mid-high range 5th ed. writeups, a detailed description, including some answers to the above questions, would of course be welcome.

 

My first impression is that Dr. D. could fight an infinite number of 8 damage class/40 AP heroes with little fear; it might take 3 dozen 50 AP/10 DC heroes to bring him down; or 2 dozen 60 AP/12 DC heroes; maybe 15-20 70 AP/14 DC heroes; 12-14 80 AP/16 DC heroes; 10-12 90 AP/18 DC heroes; and maybe 6-8 120 AP/24 DC heroes could do him in.

 

The floor is now open.

[BlueCloud2k2]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

I've never had my PC's (or been in a party) that's gone up agains the Doctor himself...

 

It's ususally been either:

 

A) Destroyer bots are tearing the City apart looking for some Unobtanium that only exists in a certain location

 

or

 

The PC's wake in one of the Doctor's bases in prison cells/laboratory and have to escape, fighting one of his high-powered minions.

 

As for actually fighting the not-so-good Doctor... has yet to happen.

[Greywind]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Far easier to defeat the plan than the man...

[megaplayboy]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Far easier to defeat the plan than the man...

 

True, but I'd kinda like to focus on actually beating the man

[mattingly]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Tick him off, and use a boosted Missile Reflection.

 

Note to Self: This only works once.

[death tribble]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Beat him with a cklub.

It worked for our ancestors

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

One of my old groups went up against an 'invulnerable' villain, our GM's homebrewed 'analog' to Dr. Destroyer, and our solution was a fast-ball special combined with extra damage from growth momentum. Actually, we had a character with a body-affecting powers Multi-power, and the group's Brick threw him while he was shrunk. I don't remember how much extra velocity he got for the small size of the thrown character... it was scary, though. Then in mid-flight the shrunken character switched all his multipower points from shrinking to growth. When he hit (We made sure he hit!) the total damage was between 50 and 60 d6. Yeah, that did it!

 

That was using 4th edition rules; I'm not how that would work in 5th/6th.

 

 

Don't look at me,

Xavier Onassiss

[megaplayboy]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

One of my old groups went up against an 'invulnerable' villain, our GM's homebrewed 'analog' to Dr. Destroyer, and our solution was a fast-ball special combined with extra damage from growth momentum. Actually, we had a character with a body-affecting powers Multi-power, and the group's Brick threw him while he was shrunk. I don't remember how much extra velocity he got for the small size of the thrown character... it was scary, though. Then in mid-flight the shrunken character switched all his multipower points from shrinking to growth. When he hit (We made sure he hit!) the total damage was between 50 and 60 d6. Yeah, that did it!

 

That was using 4th edition rules; I'm not how that would work in 5th/6th.

 

 

Don't look at me,

Xavier Onassiss

 

Hmm...guess I'd file that under "tactics". A few issues: first, Dr. D. is way smart and that might be one of those rare instances where he shifts to a defensive maneuver. Second, I'm not sure the momentum damage is automatic anymore in 6th(I think it isn't.) Third, as a GM I might cap an extreme maneuver like that at 2 or 3x campaign damage classes, on a par with a full strength, max flight brick doing a diving move through (in a 60 AP game, it's 36 DC before pushing!). Lastly, I'd expect a move like that to work only once...and then Dr. D. would start off every combat by D-beaming the size manipulator to "Bolivian" (as Mike Tyson might put it).

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Note that in none of his official write-ups does Dr. Destroyer have any Knockback Resistance among his default Defenses. Assuming he hasn't prepared any out of his VPP in anticipation of battling your PCs, it would be wise to coordinate your attacks to maximize Knockback, forcing DD to keep wasting a half-Phase getting back to his feet.

[Squall]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

My only plan would be to bring friends that are slower at running away than I am.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Note that in none of his official write-ups does Dr. Destroyer have any Knockback Resistance among his default Defenses. Assuming he hasn't prepared any out of his VPP in anticipation of battling your PCs' date=' it would be wise to coordinate your attacks to maximize Knockback, forcing DD to keep wasting a half-Phase getting back to his feet.[/quote']

 

That's quite true. I'm not sure if that's an intentional oversight or just a "D'Oh!" on Steve's part.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Hmm...guess I'd file that under "tactics". A few issues: first' date=' Dr. D. is way smart and that might be one of those rare instances where he shifts to a defensive maneuver. Second, I'm not sure the momentum damage is automatic anymore in 6th(I think it isn't.) Third, as a GM I might cap an extreme maneuver like that at 2 or 3x campaign damage classes, on a par with a full strength, max flight brick doing a diving move through (in a 60 AP game, it's 36 DC before pushing!). Lastly, I'd expect a move like that to work only once...and then Dr. D. would start off every combat by D-beaming the size manipulator to "Bolivian" (as Mike Tyson might put it).[/quote']

 

This maneuver/tactic was definitely in the 'one shot' category. Although there were guidelines in the campaign for the DC's of an 'average' attack, our group worked out this stunt when we were seriously on the ropes, and the GM allowed the full damage under the Rules As Written; because 1) it was a bloody good idea and he didn't feel like penalizing us for doing 'too much damage', and 2) the fight looked like it was going to take a lot longer otherwise.

 

Of course, the GM didn't really have to warn us NOT to try that again, as the thrown character took half the move-thru damage. He wasn't really meant to take that kind of punishment, and had no desire to repeat the experiment. Ever.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Note that in none of his official write-ups does Dr. Destroyer have any Knockback Resistance among his default Defenses. Assuming he hasn't prepared any out of his VPP in anticipation of battling your PCs' date=' it would be wise to coordinate your attacks to maximize Knockback, forcing DD to keep wasting a half-Phase getting back to his feet.[/quote']

 

Under 6th ed rules, are there any ways to go from prone to standing with a zero-phase action? I think this used to be possible with the Breakfall skill, but I've forgotten the exact rules.

[torchwolf]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Under 6th ed rules' date=' are there any ways to go from prone to standing with a zero-phase action? I think this used to be possible with the Breakfall skill, but I've forgotten the exact rules.[/quote']

Still the same, only you can't use Breakfall both for landing on your feet and reducing damage at the same time.

Getting to your feet after landing is a zero-Phase if Breakfall succeeds.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

That's quite true. I'm not sure if that's an intentional oversight or just a "D'Oh!" on Steve's part.

 

Or he just roots himself in place with 80 STR/30" of Flight as a half phase action and then blasts the hell out of you...

[hfergus]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Our group fought a "stand-in" once. They stopped the plan and the "stand-in" broke down. (Stand in was a fake done by Destroyer to prove even a lesser version could be near impossiible to take down.)

 

As to now... I have two characters who just might pull it off.

 

Olorin. Large VPP. Not cosmic, has to prepare. Go in desolid, invisible effects. Destroyer blasts him with non effects desolid because he does not seem desolid. Olorin then uses large area effect Dimensional movement usable as attack. Don't see where Destroyer has dimensional movement, but he could be back anyway. Also moving him to say, a dimensional that by it's environment has a large contiguous attack..... Of course, it may not be enough. As a GM I'd have it be a "temporary setback". And Olorin would have to get to Destroyer intact with single the charge on the attack(Only way he could do it) still intact. Not easy.

 

Futurian. His problem would be surviving the attack by Destroyer. If he does...

All his powers are based on tech. He has a very large tech drain. If he's lucky....

 

Of course Destroyer is designed to get away if nearly beaten. I like him that way.

[JmOz]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

One of my players did it with missile deflection REFLECTION

 

My group did it through a long battle, his master plan was still going to go off with out a hitch (Mind control satalites), until my hulk clone (BRUTE) did something no one, including the Dr knew he could do...THINK...My BRUTE form was actualy still a genius rocket scientist who just like to pretend he was dumb as a bag of hammers

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

How about a Custom Perk?

 

License to Practice a Profession: Rules Lawyer.

 

Maybe that would work.

[SirViss]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Still the same, only you can't use Breakfall both for landing on your feet and reducing damage at the same time.

...

 

Actually, the last paragraph under the Breakfall skill (6e1 p.66) implies the you CAN do both in the same Phase, but it would require two rolls.

[Nuclear Fridge]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

One of my players did it with missile deflection REFLECTION

 

My group did it through a long battle, his master plan was still going to go off with out a hitch (Mind control satalites), until my hulk clone (BRUTE) did something no one, including the Dr knew he could do...THINK...My BRUTE form was actualy still a genius rocket scientist who just like to pretend he was dumb as a bag of hammers

 

If Destroyer knows about a particular tactic or power, you can be sure he's got a defence for it.

Pulling a rabbit out of the hat seems to be the only viable way to beat him. You certainly can't use brute force.

[Tasha]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

I would imagine that a well coordinated team of DC 12-14 characters, with some use of tactics could take him out. Coordinating attacks will be a huge thing when facing someone like Dr D who has huge defenses. Also someone who can even temporally knock him down, blind him, bind him or otherwise half his DCV esp before the team coordinates with pushed attacks or the once in a campaign hail mary attack. Good tactics will defeat him, bad tactics will see the Heroes in the hospital.

[Drhoz]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Both times Dr. Destroyer turned up in our campaign Vitus had him so annoyed he tried to strangle Vitus personally*. And the second time he'd been resurrected by Cthulhu**, so even the necromantic power of the Great Old Ones is insufficient to keep your mind on the job when Vitus is around.

 

So whilst Vitus was making assorted choking noises and Destroyer is yelling "Die! Die! Die!" the rest of the team were running around in the background solving the situation indirectly.

 

* How To Piss Off A City + The Press Conference

 

**Thirty Seconds Over Kingdom City, here, here, and here

[megaplayboy]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

I would imagine that a well coordinated team of DC 12-14 characters' date=' with some use of tactics could take him out. Coordinating attacks will be a huge thing when facing someone like Dr D who has huge defenses. Also someone who can even temporally knock him down, blind him, bind him or otherwise half his DCV esp before the team coordinates with pushed attacks or the once in a campaign hail mary attack. Good tactics will defeat him, bad tactics will see the Heroes in the hospital.[/quote']

 

My baseline assumptions, based on the way the fights in Book of the Destroyer were written:

1) Destroyer often gets a free surprise attack, hitting one of the most powerful heroes with a full-power destroyer beam, taking them out of the fight.

2) Due to his massive PRE, this also tends to mean everyone just lost their phase on Segment 12, the traditional start phase of combat, so he gets another free attack. Down goes another hero, and quite possibly he raises that munchkinny force wall of his.

3) the remaining heroes now have to deal with dropping his force wall to get at him, while he casually blasts away with a large enough attack to one-shot almost any 300-500 point hero, on every one of his 8 phases.

 

A half dozen 400 or 500 point heroes, built to the 6e Champs guidelines, would have virtually no chance against the CKC writeup or BOTD writeups of Dr. D. You'd either need a much larger group of heroes, or a much tougher group of heroes, imo. But I'm trying to see if anyone out there actually did take on the "stock" version and achieve some tactical success.

[Patriot]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Do any of you have old school heroes that can go toe to toe with him?

By old school, i mean heroes that have seen 15+ years of play.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

My baseline assumptions, based on the way the fights in Book of the Destroyer were written:

1) Destroyer often gets a free surprise attack, hitting one of the most powerful heroes with a full-power destroyer beam, taking them out of the fight.

2) Due to his massive PRE, this also tends to mean everyone just lost their phase on Segment 12, the traditional start phase of combat, so he gets another free attack. Down goes another hero, and quite possibly he raises that munchkinny force wall of his.

3) the remaining heroes now have to deal with dropping his force wall to get at him, while he casually blasts away with a large enough attack to one-shot almost any 300-500 point hero, on every one of his 8 phases.

 

See, pretty much all of my time fighting Destroyer has been gladiator style "wonder if we can pull this off..." type combats. So no one gets any surprise rounds, the environment isn't quite as much of a factor and there are no death trap to avoids, civilians to save or minions/allies to call in for backup.

 

So I've got characters that have done it in a straight up fight, but not in an actual campaign setting.

 

Of course, several of of them are also built on considerably more than 300-500 points...