What Is The Deal With Talents?

[The Main Man]

It's confession time: I've been playing HERO for the better part of almost 8 years now and Talents continue to mystify me. The core rules make them out to be the middle ground between Skills and Powers but they can all be built with Powers.

 

Then you have the Talents presented in Fantasy HERO, where a few of them are little more than power builds like Shapechange. Dark Champions's "Super-Skills" and Pulp HERO's "Heroic Action Feats" only muddy the waters.

 

Many Talents, as Power builds, are ill-defined by themselves - you need to know how they are built as Powers to understand their usage anyway. This is particularly true outside of the core rules.

 

They have exact costs that are bought as powers unto themselves, which makes them buck the rules laid down for power construcion.

 

And in spite of all of this, I love them. I never feel that a character is truly complete without at least one Talent.

 

So as the title inquires: HEROphiles, "What is the deal with Talents?" for you?

[azrad]

Re: What Is The Deal With Talents?

 

I tend to think of them as small prefab/template powers.

[Tasha]

Re: What Is The Deal With Talents?

 

They are kind of like mini-powers for genres that don't automatically suggest themselves as being suitable for characters with powers.

 

FH talents are there to show 3rd edition D&Ders how their characters can work in Hero System. Again most people think of powers as being just for spells. The Fantasy hero book gives talents to overcome this mentality.

 

Many GM's are against any characters buying powers (equipment, Running, swimming and Per Skill levels excepted). Talents are a way to allow those characters to have abilities that aren't powers.

 

I think that Steve Costs talents out for two reasons. 1 to show how one can use powers to make these abilities 2. so GM's can see how they are created to make modifying them easier.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: What Is The Deal With Talents?

 

I tried to present Talents this way back in the 4th edition and got hammered for it. I for one am glad that DOJ has gone in this direction with Talents as I can now take a lot of my characters into other peoples games that would not have passed GM's approval before....

[FreeDice]

Re: What Is The Deal With Talents?

 

Knowing how they're costed out was so useful to me. When I saw that in FH, it was kind of an "Ah-ha" moment, and made me realize some of the serious work that goes into balancing out the whole system.

[casualplayer]

Re: What Is The Deal With Talents?

 

Talents are Powers that aren't good enough to get you into the Justice League. They are the middle ground between average human and superhuman.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: What Is The Deal With Talents?

 

They came about in the 3rd edition era (Danger International, Justice Inc.), as a way to give non-powered characters a bit more oomph. DI used no Powers at all, JI had psychic abilities and "weird talents". They weren't built and costed as Powers until 5e.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What Is The Deal With Talents?

 

Talents are just one type of 'mundane' Powers that nearly all characters have access to in some form or another. Vehicles and weapons are another example (whether paid for directly, as part of an 'equipment pool' or just a 'free' aspect of a heroic setting). They all come up often enough that having pre-built lists is just a timesaver for the GM as much as anything else.

[The Main Man]

Re: What Is The Deal With Talents?

 

Interesting perspectives there. I especially now appreciate knowing that Talents have not always existed in the system.

 

And I do understand why Talents a have their constructions displayed - so that they aren't arbitrarily costed (we're HERO gamers, we're smarter than that ).

 

Maybe it's a presentation matter. Talents have a certain quality that makes them seem like they are distinct entities within the system even when they really aren't.

 

If there's one thing that I wish there was more of, it would be Talents that are based around Skills in some way. There are some like Ambidexterity, Off-Hand Defense, Deadly Blow, and Weapon Master, but not a lot.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: What Is The Deal With Talents?

 

I do hate how the build information for talents is now hidden at the back of 6E1.

 

Also, talents give you a point or two extra when buying massive amounts of combat luck (since it truncates to 6 points per level rather than rounding if you built it like a power).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What Is The Deal With Talents?

 

The benefit of having Talents in the game is that in most cases their names evoke a real world special effect that nearly everyone at the gaming table should have a basic understanding of (photographic/eidetic memory, lightsleep, etc..) and keeps the mechanics consistent. The exact same thing happens with weapons and vehicles. Otherwise every player & GM might come to the table with characters that might have some of the same ability names (ex: Ambidexterity or Lightsleep) but wildly different methods of construction which is one of the root causes of rules arguments.

[prestidigitator]

Re: What Is The Deal With Talents?

 

If there's one thing that I wish there was more of' date=' it would be Talents that are based around Skills in some way. There are some like Ambidexterity, Off-Hand Defense, Deadly Blow, and Weapon Master, but not a lot.[/quote']

 

Then for goodness' sake, build some! That's another reason we're shown how the standard Talents are built.

[Tasha]

Re: What Is The Deal With Talents?

 

They came about in the 3rd edition era (Danger International' date=' Justice Inc.), as a way to give non-powered characters a bit more oomph. DI used no Powers at all, JI had psychic abilities and "weird talents". They weren't built and costed as Powers until 5e.[/quote']

 

Actually JI was in the second edition era (Though nearly at the end and predating Champions 3rd ed by a year) I believe that it was the first Hero game that had talents. They were used for those "weird" abilities that are part of many Pulp genre characters. Things like Aura Reading, Hypnosis and other things were presented there. 3rd edition Champions had no Talents. They didn't make it into the "core system" till 4th edition which was when Hero decided that having One rule system was better than having 5 variant rules systems that changed with each genre. Danger International didn't have Talents, but had something Called "Extraordinary Abilities" which were talents by another name. They included Lightsleep, Speed Reading, Eidetic Memory and others like that.

[FreeDice]

Re: What Is The Deal With Talents?

 

Also, am I the only one who thought...

 

"I mean, what's the DEAL with TALENTS. They're not Powers, they are Powers, they're not Powers, they are Powers. WhatamI, CRAZY?"

 

And then the Seinfeld beat plays.

[Vondy]

Re: What Is The Deal With Talents?

 

Talents are prefab powers . They are usu. built around concepts and power levels appropriate to heroic and cinematic levels of play where use of the powers section might otherwise be restricted. In this vein, I regard the talents in the book as being generic or examples of how to construct such abilities, while a gamemaster might wish to create a genre appropriate list of talents/shticks for whatever game they are running.

[megaplayboy]

Re: What Is The Deal With Talents?

 

I think, at sufficiently powerful levels of talent(where a talent may be purchased incrementally), they're probably functionally indistinguishable from regular ol' superpowers, magic spells or psions(depending on genre).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What Is The Deal With Talents?

 

I think of them as pre-approved concretely defined Powers that don't require GM permission or vetting. They are particularly appropriate in genres where full blown "Powers" are not normally available to characters, or only available via specific Packages (such as a race Package) or specific mechanisms (such as setting specific Magic Systems).

 

 

I also often define "custom talents" that are not actually built as powers or static abilities, but rather act as "unlocks" for specific flat benefits / exceptions to rules / arbitrary abilities.

[StGrimblefig]

Re: What Is The Deal With Talents?

 

Talents are prefab powers . They are usu. built around concepts and power levels appropriate to heroic and cinematic levels of play where use of the powers section might otherwise be restricted. In this vein' date=' I regard the talents in the book as being generic or examples of how to construct such abilities, while a gamemaster might wish to create a genre appropriate list of talents/shticks for whatever game they are running.[/quote']

 

I think of them as pre-approved concretely defined Powers that don't require GM permission or vetting. They are particularly appropriate in genres where full blown "Powers" are not normally available to characters' date=' or only available via specific Packages (such as a race Package) or specific mechanisms (such as setting specific Magic Systems).[/quote']

These have the essence of it. The fact that they are pre-built (and pre-approved by the GM), and the only options available for them are the ones included in the write-ups, means that they are generally a lot safer to use in a genre that doesn't allow Powers.

 

I also often define "custom talents" that are not actually built as powers or static abilities' date=' but rather act as "unlocks" for specific flat benefits / exceptions to rules / arbitrary abilities.[/quote']I would love to see a few of these, KS, if you feel like posting them.

[JmOz]

Re: What Is The Deal With Talents?

 

I looik at them as powers (thus if you want to put limits on them I make you buy them based on the build (Combat luck starts out as Resistant Protection with +1/2 advantages and -1 in limitations). But at the same time I think there is a bit more handwavium placed in Talents (I would not make you make a PER roll to tell the time if you have absolute time, well maybe if it was a by the second thing...but probably not)

[Lucius]

Re: What Is The Deal With Talents?

 

Interesting perspectives there. I especially now appreciate knowing that Talents have not always existed in the system.

 

And I do understand why Talents a have their constructions displayed - so that they aren't arbitrarily costed (we're HERO gamers, we're smarter than that ).

 

Maybe it's a presentation matter. Talents have a certain quality that makes them seem like they are distinct entities within the system even when they really aren't.

 

If there's one thing that I wish there was more of, it would be Talents that are based around Skills in some way. There are some like Ambidexterity, Off-Hand Defense, Deadly Blow, and Weapon Master, but not a lot.

 

Like this?

 

Lord of War (compound power): (Total: 19 Active Cost, 7 Real Cost) Cramming , Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action to reset; +3/4) (9 Active Points); Limited Power Only for Weapon or Transport Familiarity (-1) (Real Cost: 4) plus Speed "Reading" (x10,000) (10 Active Points); Limited Power Only to learn a Weapon or Transport Familiarity (-2) (Real Cost: 3) Total Cost: 7

 

 

At Home Anywhere: Disguise 15-, Persistent (+1/4) (14 Active Points); Limited Power Not to impersonate anyone specific, only to "blend in." (Works better with costumes or props (bonus for using them) but works even without them. In a hospital, assumed to be a new doctor coming on or going off shift, in a police station or military base without uniform is assumed to be off duty, etc. But the character always looks like they "belong there."; -1) Total Cost: 7

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Power Skill: Palindromedary

[The Main Man]

Re: What Is The Deal With Talents?

 

Also, am I the only one who thought...

 

"I mean, what's the DEAL with TALENTS. They're not Powers, they are Powers, they're not Powers, they are Powers. WhatamI, CRAZY?"

 

And then the Seinfeld beat plays.

Nope. That's exactly what I was going for with the title.

[The Main Man]

Re: What Is The Deal With Talents?

 

Like this?

 

Lord of War (compound power): (Total: 19 Active Cost, 7 Real Cost) Cramming , Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action to reset; +3/4) (9 Active Points); Limited Power Only for Weapon or Transport Familiarity (-1) (Real Cost: 4) plus Speed "Reading" (x10,000) (10 Active Points); Limited Power Only to learn a Weapon or Transport Familiarity (-2) (Real Cost: 3) Total Cost: 7

 

 

At Home Anywhere: Disguise 15-, Persistent (+1/4) (14 Active Points); Limited Power Not to impersonate anyone specific, only to "blend in." (Works better with costumes or props (bonus for using them) but works even without them. In a hospital, assumed to be a new doctor coming on or going off shift, in a police station or military base without uniform is assumed to be off duty, etc. But the character always looks like they "belong there."; -1) Total Cost: 7

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Power Skill: Palindromedary

 

I suppose yes. Something like that.

 

I did just remember quite a few from "A Few Talents More" that were based around negating Skill Penalties.

[megaplayboy]

Re: What Is The Deal With Talents?

 

The most expensive talent I can think of would be one called "Universal Genius", which would combine Universal Translator and most of the optional Universals mentioned in the APG and Ultimate Skill. (Translator, Scientist, Scholar, Tradesman, Traveler)--100 points for an INT-based roll to do or know almost anything its remotely feasible a human being could do or know.

[Lucius]

Re: What Is The Deal With Talents?

 

I'm not happy with how much I had to spend on this one, but it lets a character make up to three attacks in a phase as easily as one.

 

Sweep the Room: (Total: 53 Active Cost, 33 Real Cost) Rapid Attack (Real Cost: 10) plus Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) for up to 30 Active Points of Up to 30 pts of STR and/or Attacks (15 Active Points); Limited Power Only for each attack AFTER the first in a Multiple Attack (-1) (Real Cost: 7) plus Penalty Skill Levels: +4 vs. Multiple Attack penalties, any large two handed weapon with to offset a specific negative OCV modifier with any three maneuvers or tight group (Real Cost: 8) plus +4 DCV (20 Active Points); Limited Power Only when at half DCV for Multiple Attacks (-1 1/2) (Real Cost: 8)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Talent: Palindromedary Rider

[Lucius]

Re: What Is The Deal With Talents?

 

Here's a cheap one

 

Androgynous: +3 with Acting, Mimicry, Disguise (9 Active Points); Limited Power Only to impersonate the opposite sex (-1) Real Cost 4

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Impersonating a palindromedary