The Hero System is bland and over complicated

[Markdoc]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

How did you do this?

 

It's very, very easy - at least at the heroic level: my problem is always keeping the PCs alive, when giving them credible opposition. In last night's game they faced a "tentacle monster" - it caused them a lot of grief, but did relatively little BOD, since it had no killing attacks. However, it left one PC unconscious in knee deep water: she was drowning to death, when one of the others got to her. Last week's game they faced a giant snake - one player took 9 BOD (in a single hit, after her armour), was seriously unconscious and about to be eaten, when another PC mindcontrolled the snake to spit her up and flee. The session before that, the PCs fought some sharkmen: one PC down into negative BOD and almost bled to death, two players down with significant BOD in addition to masses of stun. We would have probably had a PC fatality, had the guy with mindcontrol not rolled a near perfect attack and turned one of the berserking sharkmen on the sharkman shaman

 

The mechanisms for lethality are:

1. Not too much magic/psionics/rubber science. If players can buy 30 rDEF, they will. If they are stuck with more "realistic" options ... well they can't buy 30 rDEF

2. Hit locations.

 

That's it. All you need for a gory game. Point in case. The best armoured PC in my game has partial chainmail armour (with the amount of swimming, climbing, jumping, etc, anything heavier is impractical, most of the time.) The strongest PC in the game can dish out 3d6 HKA with his sword. These examples indicate the sort of range NPCs cover as well. Do the math - it's entirely possible for a single blow to hit an armoured bit and still do 24 BOD - a one-hit kill, essentially. Unlikely, but possible. Hits to unarmoured bits are even more lethal. BOD damage during fights is the rule, not the exception and most of my PCs can only take 2-3 good hits at most - when they are in armour. Without armour we're talking 1-2.

 

In a modern setting, body armour will stop most - but not all - BOD from regular firearms, but take a hit to the unarmoured bits and you can easily go down badly wounded or dying. Again, that's realistic.

 

Seriously, Hero is a very lethal system when you are not playing superheroes, and my problem is always avoiding unnecessary fatalities (we've only had one PC fatality in this game so far and that was with player consent). As we ramp up toward the climax, though, I have put the players on notice that things are going to get dangerous, so fatalities are a real possibility.

 

cheers, Mark

[Utech]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

"The recollections of one Michael Chambers, with appropriate flashbacks and soliloquy. Or more simply stated, the evolution of man, the cycle of going from dust to dessert, the metamorphosis from being the ruler of a planet to an ingredient in someone's soup. It's tonight's "bill of fare," from the Twilight Zone." - "To Serve Man"

 

Also, of course: "It's a cookbook!"

[Matt Holck]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

hero is one of the few systems where is likely to be unconscious rather than dead

[Guest steamteck]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

hero is one of the few systems where is likely to be unconscious rather than dead[/quote

 

One of the things I love about it.. although it can be pretty lethal if desired obviously from Markdoc's comments above

[archermoo]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

hero is one of the few systems where is likely to be unconscious rather than dead

 

That games can be run like that is certainly one of the Hero system's strengths. Of course you can balance it so that the reverse is true as well...

[Ragitsu]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

If you have a vivid enough imagination, the HERO Core Rulebooks are not bland: they certainly aren't for me.

 

I suppose, then, it depends on what you expect system books to contain.

[Nolgroth]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I suppose' date=' then, it depends on what you expect system books to contain.[/quote']

I suppose that depends on what system. If the rules are geared towards a specific setting (D&D, Shadowrun, etc) I expect that the rulebooks will demonstrate the rules as they interact with whatever particular setting the book is about. If the purpose of the rules is to toolkit (HERO, GURPS, others(?)) then I expect the rulebook to be an encyclopedia of rules with suggestions on how to tailor them to specific genres. Even if those suggestions are brief explanations and outlines of elements common to a particular genre, anything would be useful.

 

I think there is a legitimate argument that people who have been weened on game systems that include slick, full-color graphics, snippets of story background, and an integrated rules/setting presentation expect something different. Some folks thrive in the toolkit environment and others don't. The author of the blog linked in the OP is probably of the latter variety. He sounds as if he likes his role-playing books short and to the point. As a result, he appears to have developed the opinion that highly detailed rules explanations are too cumbersome to read and digest. To be fair, this guy does not spend the majority of that segment knocking HERO. He states his opinion and moves on to the review of the product.

 

Just for comparison sake, is there a pro-HERO blog on Youtube? If so, does that blogger make comparison opinions of other role-playing games? Do those comparisons occasionally slight those other systems? Be interesting to see if "our own" come(s) off with a similar sense of system snobbery.

[Ragitsu]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Be interesting to see if "our own" come(s) off with a similar sense of system snobbery.

 

"If"? Every system has it's elitists.

[Nolgroth]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

"If"? Every system has it's elitists.

True, but are any of them out there on Youtube?

[Ragitsu]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

True' date=' but are any of them out there on Youtube?[/quote']

 

Some. You can usually tell this by viewing the votes against them/the low rating.

[Nolgroth]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Really, I couldn't find anything with Youtube search engine. At least not quickly.

[BeZurKur]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

What does YouTube have to do with anything? I'll discuss why Hero has the stigma by some as being bland and complicated (and many would agree), but if this thread is shifting to "he is wrong for having an opinion" or "wrong for sharing it on YouTube" then we are the elitists.

 

EDIT: Just wanted to add I agree with this:

I think there is a legitimate argument that people who have been weened on game systems that include slick, full-color graphics, snippets of story background, and an integrated rules/setting presentation expect something different. Some folks thrive in the toolkit environment and others don't. The author of the blog linked in the OP is probably of the latter variety. He sounds as if he likes his role-playing books short and to the point. As a result, he appears to have developed the opinion that highly detailed rules explanations are too cumbersome to read and digest. To be fair, this guy does not spend the majority of that segment knocking HERO. He states his opinion and moves on to the review of the product.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

What does YouTube have to do with anything? I'll discuss why Hero has the stigma by some as being bland and complicated (and many would agree)' date=' but if this thread is shifting to "he is wrong for having an opinion" or "wrong for sharing it on YouTube" then we are the elitists.[/quote']

 

I think the general consensus was "he is wrong for sharing an uninformed opinion. He clearly states that he hasn't even read the whole book".

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

If you have a vivid enough imagination, the HERO Core Rulebooks are not bland: they certainly aren't for me.

 

I suppose, then, it depends on what you expect system books to contain.

 

Rules are bland. They are tech, not spice. I find the sidebars in the core rules provide examples of how the gamer can use their own imagination to add the spice to the system.

 

Certainly, it's much more exciting to have a Fireball, or Wall of Force, or Web Spell than to describe energy blasts, killing attacks, explosions, barriers and entangles in generic detail to allow the uyser to construct any effect he wants. The advantage of this approach is the flexibility to create any power or ability, not be constrained by those the bok has provided. Maybe I want a Flurry of Force Missiles, a Bolt of Infernal Flame, or an Animate Tunic spell. How easy is that to do in Hero versus D&D, from where I draw my initial examples?

 

I think 6e has improved the flashy aspects of the system, but it does so in the appropriate materials, such as the Champions setting book.

 

Ultimately, it is not the game system that adds the spice. I can play a game of D&D where we just monotone our attacks. "I attack with my sword. Rolled a 27 to hit. 15 damage." just as easily as I can play a bland and uninspired game of Hero. And I can play either one with more vibrant descriptions and play. The system's job is to provide the mechanics which the gamers can use to adjudicate results in bringing their own imaginations to life in the game.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

More importantly, he seems to be basing his opinion of gameplay entirely on the ruleset, without regard to how the rules are applied in any given setting. Calling Hero "bland" without looking at Alien Wars, Tuala Morn, or Keith Curtis's Savage Earth is like looking at a blank notebook at Barnes and Noble and saying that all the novels there suck.

[BeZurKur]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

More importantly' date=' he seems to be basing his opinion of gameplay entirely on the ruleset, without regard to how the rules are applied in any given setting. Calling Hero "bland" without looking at Alien Wars, Tuala Morn, or Keith Curtis's Savage Earth is like looking at a blank notebook at Barnes and Noble and saying that all the novels there suck.[/quote']

 

(Heh, that's funny. )

 

Yes, all true. However, to most gamers who came in post 1985, they expect their setting and rules rolled into one -- more so the later. Throwing a two mega-volume toolbox will never appeal to them. Maybe DOJ doesn't want to. I don't know.

 

An Alien Wars or Tuala Morn with a slimmed down ruleset (just enough to play the setting) included, with the level of production currently being done, and it may attract them. Once in, some may then go for the whole toolkit because they've seen how it's done.

[Nolgroth]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

What does YouTube have to do with anything? I'll discuss why Hero has the stigma by some as being bland and complicated (and many would agree)' date=' but if this thread is shifting to "he is wrong for having an opinion" or "wrong for sharing it on YouTube" then we are the elitists.[/quote']I had a couple of points with that. One, I was trying to get at that anybody opinionated enough to publicly review products has strong opinions that he/she wants to share. Asking for a pro-HERO reviewer's Youtube blog was an end run around a delicate subject. Folks here are obviously HERO fans. Fans tend to be defined by their loyalty to whatever it is they are fans of. Loyalty can often lead to "Us vs Them" and "Holier Than Thou" attitudes. Questioning whether a pro-HERO video blogger trashes other systems allows us to look at our own opinions in that light. Obviously that tactic failed. Stupid lack of inflection with text thing.

 

My other point being that maybe we need some Youtube videos out there to combat the negative opinion toward HERO that is apparently held by the role-playing community. If we already have a couple of dedicated fans, then we are probably okay. Besides, I would like to see the videos. Consider that another sneaky end run thing. Hoping to get some links without having to go through the bother of posting another whole thread or searching through the forums.

[BeZurKur]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

My other point being that maybe we need some Youtube videos out there to combat the negative opinion toward HERO that is apparently held by the role-playing community. If we already have a couple of dedicated fans' date=' then we are probably okay. Besides, I would like to see the videos. Consider that another sneaky end run thing. Hoping to get some links without having to go through the bother of posting another whole thread or searching through the forums.[/quote']

 

YouTube, blogs, books, anything that concentrates on using the Hero system. Yeah, that'd be good. I agree: forums aren't suited for that kind of focused opinion and instruction.

[Nolgroth]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

YouTube' date=' blogs, books, anything that concentrates on using the Hero system. Yeah, that'd be good. I agree: forums aren't suited for that kind of focused opinion and instruction.[/quote']Forums are GREAT for that, but only for those that frequent the forums. I have tried other forums and found that each community has its own rhythm. Sometimes it is easy to integrate and sometimes it isn't. But before that becomes an issue, somebody has to want to participate.

 

Blogs, Youtube and all that stuff are great ways of reaching out to the gaming community at large. Perhaps that is what you meant, but I read it differently.

[incrdbil]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

More importantly' date=' he seems to be basing his opinion of gameplay entirely on the ruleset, without regard to how the rules are applied in any given setting. Calling Hero "bland" without looking at Alien Wars, Tuala Morn, or Keith Curtis's Savage Earth is like looking at a blank notebook at Barnes and Noble and saying that all the novels there suck.[/quote']

He's criticising rules for not handcuffign you to a particalr genre or setting. D&D-itis, if you want to give the syndrome a name.

[Ragitsu]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Folks here are obviously HERO fans. Fans tend to be defined by their loyalty to whatever it is they are fans of. Loyalty can often lead to "Us vs Them" and "Holier Than Thou" attitudes.

 

Not everyone ascribes to the "I must play only one pencil and paper roleplaying game" mentality.

 

Rules are bland.

 

They don't have to be. You can have rules that are fun to read, if the writer or writers include their own perspective (which should fit with the game itself). Also, examples can help get the reader into the rules.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

They don't have to be. You can have rules that are fun to read' date=' if the writer or writers include their own perspective (which should fit with the game itself). Also, examples can help get the reader into the rules.[/quote']

 

Such as the dozens of sample powers and abilities in the rule books, of course.

 

At the end of the day, Hero takes a different approach from many games. They do not publish combination rules/genre/setting books, with a couple of exceptions that, if successful enough, will doubtless lead to more. They also do not scatter the full game rules over a wide array of different books, requiring you purchase several dozen books to have the complete game. What's D&D 4e up to so far, three PHB's and DMG's?

 

Could they attract some fans of other games that follow a different approach by changing to be more like those games? Sure. But only at the cost of pushing away some fans of the current approach. They can't be all things to all people. D&D doesn't give you a three volume bok set that can run fantasy, modern adventure, superheroes and sci fi. They focus exclusively on the fantasy subgenre with a setting implicit in the background (one where certain spells exist, as do certain deities, and the means of accessing and using those spells are fixed in certain limited choices based on the class you choose). As a result, they can focus much more effectively on that one subgenre/setting, and be more evocative of that single game style. Hero is forced to sacrifice that depth in the interest of the breadth - flexibility - it provides.

[mkultra]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

an Animate Tunic spell

That's one rule that I live by: never trust anybody who wears a tunic. It's never let me down

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

That line almost made up for the rest of the film. The fact that his rule worked combined with the "ugly but enthusiastic women" in Chaka's village did make up for it. If only just.

[BeZurKur]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Such as the dozens of sample powers and abilities in the rule books' date=' of course.[/quote']

Is that the extent of the toolbox? If we go by what's published, then yes. However, I've run games that created campaign specific effects that helped define the world and never told the players outside of doing X does Y.

 

For example, I ran a video game Hero campaign where taking out mooks generated glowing orbs of different colors. The orbs were just fractional xp towards a one shot independent minor power. The players didn't know that, but man it was fun to watch them scramble for the little plastic beads I threw down!

 

My point is the gaming community needs to see what it can do on the campaign level, not just how to create a fireball or laser pistol. In fact, that approach actually enforces the bland stigma. Creating a setting and putting construction elements in the back can do a lot for restoring the magic.

 

FWIW, I flipped through Lucha Libre Hero and, IMO, it didn't go far enough.

 

Could they attract some fans of other games that follow a different approach by changing to be more like those games? Sure. But only at the cost of pushing away some fans of the current approach.

Why does it have to be either or? I say have the mega-volumes, but then create a complete (as in one book) setting with the necessary rules included. If the players want to do more with it, they are directed to the toolbox.