The Hero System is bland and over complicated

[Sketchpad]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I would rather watch paint dry' date=' than play HERO.[/quote']

 

Umm ... have you read your sig lately?

[Sketchpad]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Personally, I don't find the Hero System bland and over complicated ... but I've also been using it on and off since 1985. Do I find it hard to get a group interested? At times, yes. For quite some time it was our "Go To" system for superheroes, as well as using it for Pulp and General Action. But lately, my group likes other games. Eh, so we play something else here and there. I'm sure that someday I'll run another game of Hero, but I enjoy the group I'm in, so I'll surf with their waves for the moment being.

Why don't they prefer Hero anymore? Well, a few do, but overall, the group doesn't feel like doing the work. But I get the same with any game akin to it: GURPS, M&M, even d6. So, for now, I bide my time and enjoy the friendships in the group. IMHO, it's never about the system, but the story and the friends.

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

So' date=' for now, I bide my time and enjoy the friendships in the group. IMHO, it's never about the system, but the story and the friends.[/quote']

That's about how I do it, unless/until someone asks me to GM. I flat out refuse to GM crap like D&D anymore (especially the newer editions).

[teh bunneh]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Did you run into this more with skill rolls or with attack rolls? I'm betting it's attack rolls. I have seen people stumble over the Hero to hit mechanic, especially when the old way (OCV + 11 - DCV = target) is used. That's why I changed up my character sheets a bit. On the top of the sheet, where OCV used to be, I put the following:

 

Condition OCV +11 To Hit
--------- --- --- ------
Full 8 +11 19-
Half 4 +11 15-
Zero 0 +11 11-

Once I started doing that and telling new players, you're trying to roll your To Hit or less on 3d6, let me know how much you make it by, I stopped seeing problems.

 

Yep, Netzilla's got it exactly right. I never put OCV: 5 on character sheets. It's 16-, same format as all the other rolls. That's all the players have to know. They might add a skill level or two to it when the time comes to make their roll, but no one should ever actually have to do any math while you're actually playing.

 

When combat comes up, I say, "Roll under your OCV. Tell me how much you make it by." The player says, "I rolled a 9. Made it by 7!" I say, "A solid hit! Roll your damage!" or "Ooh, just missed him. He barely ducks out of the way of your sword, losing a lock of hair."

 

I guess my question is, if you aren't doing all that math before the game even starts (during char creation), why not?

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

The problem is not with the concept - which is easy enough to explain - it's in getting them to do the math. For some reason, it really seems to be a stumbling block with some people. In the end, I got so sick of being asked "How do I calculate this again?" or "Do I need to roll high or low this time?" that I simply swapped to "roll high" and watched the problem vanish.

 

Had it been one person, or even one group, I would have just shrugged my shoulders and thought it was a bit weird. But there's been at least one person in each of 4 groups now - and I found that other GMs have had similar experiences, so it's a non-trivial number of new players.

 

Is it worth making the change? Personally, I think so. New players who stumble over math in-game are players who walk away thinking "Hero is hard to play". Even if it's only a quarter of people (which seems to be about the rough estimate judging from the last time we had this discussion) that seems like a lot to turn away for no real reason. Mathematically, "roll high" is no different to "roll low". There's noting inherently superior to the method we use now: it's just "what we've always done" - and that for me, is a really, really weak excuse to do anything.

 

To me, it's more that if you lose nothing mechanically, or in terms of system design, why wouldn't you choose the option that makes it easier for new players?

 

That's been my experience as well. I've switched to roll-high and it works great. There's one (generally) rarely-used mechanic in the system that does have to change: "make it by half". But I never thought that made sense on a bell curve anyway. So I just use "make it by 5" instead. So making a roll by 5 is an excellent success and making it by 10 is an extraordinary, superhuman success (rolling an 18 can substitute for either, depending on the circumstances, import, and what you'd normally need to succeed; by default, if you could naturally only make it by +3 when rolling an 18, it might turn into the +5 equivalent; if you would naturally make it by +6 when rolling an 18, it might turn into the +10 equivalent).

 

Roll-high does (IMO) make easier the separation of Skills from their Characteristic rolls, which I like. The way I do it is characteristic rolls give you a roll bonus of CHAR/5, and skills give you a roll bonus of -1 for Familiarity and +0+CHAR for full buy (substituting CHAR -> +2 for Background Skills and/or when no Characteristic seems to apply to a circumstance), increasing at the usual rate (so for 2 more points on most skills you get +1+CHAR). While normally I match the skill with its default Characteristic, I like the option of occasionally pairing Skills with different Characteristics in the right circumstances (e.g. sometimes calling for a Climbing+Str roll instead of Climbing+Dex). The usual/default target number you're trying to reach is 12 (or 10+DCV on an attack), which produces the same probabilities as the normal roll-under.

 

Example

Jack has a Str of 15, giving him a Str Roll of +3. He has bought Climbing at full skill level (3 points) giving him a Climbing Roll of +0. During a long climb up a mountain, his partner slips and falls, and Jack needs to make a Str+Climbing roll to hold on, lest his partner's falling weight drag them both off the rocks to a very unpleasant fall. He rolls 3d6+0+3=9+3=12, just making it. If the task had been a particularly difficult one, he might have had to roll a 13 or 14 instead; if there were bonus and penalties under Jack's control and that the player knew about, he would have a bonus or penalty to the roll instead or in addition.

 

While I like this method and wouldn't mind seeing the system change to something like it, I also don't mind terribly it staying as-is and using my method in-house. Of course, to those saying things like, "If they're not flexible enough to use roll-low in our system..." I'd say, "Aren't we some of the brightest, most flexible players in the roleplaying community? Are you going to fault others for being inflexible, or exercise some of your own great flexibility? Which is more heroic?"

[Susano]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Yep, Netzilla's got it exactly right. I never put OCV: 5 on character sheets. It's 16-, same format as all the other rolls. That's all the players have to know. They might add a skill level or two to it when the time comes to make their roll, but no one should ever actually have to do any math while you're actually playing.

 

When combat comes up, I say, "Roll under your OCV. Tell me how much you make it by." The player says, "I rolled a 9. Made it by 7!" I say, "A solid hit! Roll your damage!" or "Ooh, just missed him. He barely ducks out of the way of your sword, losing a lock of hair."

 

I guess my question is, if you aren't doing all that math before the game even starts (during char creation), why not?

 

Let me make sure I have it.

 

Instead of OCV 5, you put 16, because OCV 5 + 11 = 16. Then, if someone makes their roll by 7... what DCV have they hit? 7?

 

I'm not following the math.....

[teh bunneh]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Instead of OCV 5' date=' you put 16, because OCV 5 + 11 = 16. Then, if someone makes their roll by 7... what DCV have they hit? 7?[/quote']

 

Yes, that's exactly right.

 

OCV 5 + 11 = 16. So 16- is their roll.

 

If they make the roll by 7, that means they hit a DCV 7.

 

A player doesn't need to do this math every time they roll to hit, any more than they need to know how much their EB costs during the actual game. Write it down once during char creation, and it's done.

[Susano]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Yes, that's exactly right.

 

OCV 5 + 11 = 16. So 16- is their roll.

 

If they make the roll by 7, that means they hit a DCV 7.

 

A player doesn't need to do this math every time they roll to hit, any more than they need to know how much their EB costs during the actual game. Write it down once during char creation, and it's done.

 

Hmm.... interesting. And if you have levels, you just add them to the listed value. And if you're have 1/2 OCV< then in this case, you need to roll under an 8.

 

I'll have to keep this in mind.

 

You don't have this on a handout do you?

[teh bunneh]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

You don't have this on a handout do you?

 

I've got the worksheet for one of the characters in my game. He's got a lot of martial maneuvers (usable with all blades and bare handed) and several different weapons, so it's a bit long.

 

Damien has an OCV 6 and DCV 4. At half OCV, he has a base OCV of 3. He has +2 with all blades.

[TSandman]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I've played with complete RPG newbies' date=' little kids, old ladies, D&D grognards, everyone under the sun. [/quote']

 

Could it be that...

 

... you've played with gamers wanting to try something *GASP* different???

 

Habits are hard to change (ask any Grognard) When you do not really want to change, you'll pick out whatever bothers you most and complain about it... Hum.. isn't that what we're doing? ;p

[TSandman]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

The only math issue I've really seen' date=' and see as the "problem" though not much of one is the (from a new player standpoint) (X+11)-Y. People often ask me, why, do we need that... once I show them the closed system, and how when both OCV and DCV cancel each other out, that plus 11 gives you your avg target number, and then moves the difficulty around from there, creating a sliding range in that system. After that they seem to "get it." and we have no more issues. But yah, I've been asked many times, "why add 11?"[/quote']

 

When the newbies get that at equal aptitude, you have to roll 11- and if you are better in offense that he is to defense, your success goes up by that much, or down by that much if he's better than you at defense, and that the math is only to "hide" one part of the "opposed" roll... so that the player tells what he hits instead of what to hit (to keep suspense up), many things "clicks" in their heads (at least it did in mine and in many other in my group).

 

It's not always explained like that by GM, some who might prefer to use the equation because they had "gotten" it years ago and do not need to think about it anymore

[Maccabe]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Actually over the course of time I have heard other "comments" on the Champions system;

#1- It's too generic : Some superhero games have 'set' effects, ie Flame Blast, Electrical attack, etc So when exposed to HERO it seems dry/dull.

#2- It only uses d6's: In some systems attacks use different dice for effect. In D&D, for example, you use all manor of dice. Swords can do 1d8 or even 1d12 . Again this can seem bland.

#3 Only 5 experience points ??!! To become better in some systems it takes 1,000's of experience points for a 'level' so only getting 5 points after saving the world seems trivial.

[RexMundi]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

1. It does Everything. Set effects always limit, and 90% of the time, there is no effective difference between the set effect other then the christmas wrapping around the package.

2. d6's are cool. If I have to I can make them out of the knucklebones of people.

3. 5 XP in Hero can smash a building.

 

So, while those original points above are a legit perception, it's still just a perception. I suppose it's a matter of differences in the way of thinking, the way "back then" and the way now. The old "Back in my Day we walked to school, backwards, through thorns, in a blizzard..." thing. In genral what I've discovered over the last near three decades, Lowest Common Denominator attracts the Lowest Common Denominator, and some folks, are outright frightened of having to think outside the box. That's why some folks go to the store to buy bread. And others, pick up the scratch ingrediants for the same prices and make a whole bunch of bread, then different breads, then cookies, then pastry......all out of the same stuff.....

 

Yet, the folks that like Wonderbread, stick with wonderbread.

 

~Rex

[RPMiller]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

To pipe in:

 

1. I agree with Rex here. It bugs me to no end how the set effects are somehow different than what its actual effect is, ie it does damage. In Hero you are given the freedom to use the special effects of any power to do creative and interesting things other than just "do damage" for example.

2. I see little advantage to multiple types of dice. All that does is constantly raise the question of "which die to I roll now?" With all dice being d6, it makes it simple for the players, and there is nothing more awesome than tossing 30d6 on the table.

3. One of the things that GMs can do to provide more apparent "growth" for the characters is to give out fractional XP. I wrote about how I do it on another thread, but essentially, I give .1, .25, .5, .75, etc XP as the game goes along. It gives more of the "Hey! I just did something!" feeling to the players than waiting until the end, and it gives a sense of constant growth of the characters. It also removes the tendency for all characters to always get the same amount of XP regardless of their level of participation. By giving it out as you go, there is a sense of personal accomplishment, and raises the level of participation in the game. YMMV.

[RexMundi]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

If folks, wonder about the true power of 1 XP in Hero. Just have them make an Archer character. 1 XP can add some serious brutality to Trick Arrow Multipowers.

 

~Rex

[Ragitsu]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Umm ... have you read your sig lately?

 

Have you?

[mallet]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

The XP thing was a big deal for my group when I was trying to get them to make the switch to HERO.

 

So I just made up my own system for it. I would give them big numbers of "meta xp" 500, 1000, 235 or whatever for beating certain villains, finishing missions, saving people, etc... per session. Every 1000 "Meta Xp" they earned translated in to 1 character point worth of XP to use to improve their character. It worked really well. It gave more granularity to the xp system, it gave bigger numbers which people like, it allowed for giving "Xp" on the fly (after a particular heroic act), but it also let me still retain the control of the characters growth.

 

If a player had only earned 3451 XP during an adventure, but I wanted him to get 5 "real" xp points for the adventure then the completion bonus for the adventure would be "1600 XP" which gave them 5051 (meta)xp so 5 character points to spend.

 

The players really got into it, and it allowed me to reward them for smaller actions that might not be worth a full character point, but still deserved some recognition. It definitely seemed to help encourage player buy in and involvement. They would start trying to do really heroic, daring and cool "stunts" during combat and adventuring so that they would get the "bonus" xp. It made the game a lot funner.

[RPMiller]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

That is pretty much the same as my system, but I used fractions that added up to whole numbers. My players are able to grok the various concepts of XP awards, so there was no reason to "fool" them with big numbers.

[RexMundi]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Some folks though have XP burned into their perceptions.....so Games like HERO where little bits of XP go a long way, or something like Traveller, where you don't even GET XP, confuse the ever living crap out of those people. They are so used to the XP ladder structure that they don't see the big picture. You see that in the XP structure of things like MMO's .....Zillions of XP......Bunches and Bunches of Levels! .......

 

Without those crutches they lack a frame of reference as to how "good" they are. Lot of folks like references.

 

~Rex

[Ragitsu]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Does Traveller have any kind of mechanical character advancement?

[RexMundi]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

A couple of them actually especially if you are rolling with the Current Mongoose Publishing version. Esentially it's a time, effort, training and instruction set up that is in a way, nothing short of brilliant considering the Age of Sail downtime the game has at it's core. Some of the varients like Judge Dredd, handle things a bit differently, but esentially it's the same at it's root. SO, you CAN advance mechanically, just like any other game syste, The key thing to remember with Traveller though, is that your PC's for the most part do not start as Rookies. In fact, most of them end up better then the majority of the populace, "adventurers" included. It's a matter of scale in that system. Well scaled system to that's why it's really the only game I've played as long as HERO.

 

~Rex

[Escafarc]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Does Traveller have any kind of mechanical character advancement?

 

Surviving Character Generation to actually play:)

[Ragitsu]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

 

I found this at Powell's Bookstore.

[RexMundi]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Heh, that's been blunted considerably. I used to keep a wall of Dead Traveller PC's behind the table we all played on when I was a kid. Now, you can end up mauled, but there are still a few paths in creation that can end up with you wandering down a tunnel, turning left, and being eaten by a Grue.

 

The thing with Traveller is that unlike a lot of other games, you don't start as a rookie. You ARE, the 1000 pound gorilla in the Room. You Start as Han Solo, Kirk, Adama, etc, and the game is about what you were doing After your Career.....

 

Of course, you don't HAVE to start that experienced. You can begin play at any level, after that, Progressions is time, effort, and role play. No need for a mechanical measuring system.

 

~Rex

[Escafarc]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Was it the Chaosism system where you only got a chance of improving only the skills that you used in the game, so if you never used a skill, it never went up?