The Hero System is bland and over complicated

[dmjalund]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I would' date=' but my face was made for audio...[/quote']That doesn't stop a lot of people.

[Nolgroth]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I would' date=' but my face was made for audio...[/quote']You think you got it bad? My face is the stuff of Nosferatu inspired nightmares and my voice cracks like a nerdy adolescent who just witnessed his first naked woman. And that's just normal for me. There is a reason I do not host my game with Skype or the like.

[Balabanto]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

And since 95% of the purchasers of the current rule set already play or use the game in some manner' date=' it tends to be a non-issue.[/quote']

 

That statement shows absolutely no consciousness of how to build a business. You build a business by generating 2.5 percent of additional new customers a year, not by catering to your current fanbase. You want more new people to play the game so your company makes money. HERO system is not solely for the people who hang out on the HERO boards. It's for the people of the world.

 

I live in Tenafly, New Jersey. I am the only Champions GM within 20 miles. The nearest other Champions GM I know of is Darren! He's the president of the company. Most of my players tell me that if it wasn't for me, they would play some other system, because HERO is highly complex and without a GM present to help you, characters are tough to build. They have jobs and lives and little interest in reading the sections of the book that do not pertain to their characters. Every single one of them tells me that it would be wonderful if the system was half it's current size, or more engaging to read.

[Greywind]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Well... SFB was created by Stephen V. Cole an engineer and former US Army intelligence officer... (From Wikipedia)

 

What would be more dry^H^H^Hdetailed than a Military Engineering manual?

I am very aware of Cole's work experience. One uses what they learned from.

 

I know people that enjoy playing the game, but absolutely refuse to learn the entire rule set, and then bitch when something outside their experience is used against them.

 

That statement shows absolutely no consciousness of how to build a business. You build a business by generating 2.5 percent of additional new customers a year, not by catering to your current fanbase. You want more new people to play the game so your company makes money. HERO system is not solely for the people who hang out on the HERO boards. It's for the people of the world.

 

I live in Tenafly, New Jersey. I am the only Champions GM within 20 miles. The nearest other Champions GM I know of is Darren! He's the president of the company. Most of my players tell me that if it wasn't for me, they would play some other system, because HERO is highly complex and without a GM present to help you, characters are tough to build. They have jobs and lives and little interest in reading the sections of the book that do not pertain to their characters. Every single one of them tells me that it would be wonderful if the system was half it's current size, or more engaging to read.

The HERO system is not the path of least resistance that D&D flavor-of-the-moment is. HERO is only complex to those that pick up the book with no idea of how to apply the contents.

 

I am the only DragonQuest GM in my area. This is because people would rather play with D&D. The system isn't more complex. It is just that D&D is easier to gain access to and more people use it.

[Susano]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

The HERO system is not the path of least resistance that D&D flavor-of-the-moment is. HERO is only complex to those that pick up the book with no idea of how to apply the contents.

 

I am the only DragonQuest GM in my area. This is because people would rather play with D&D. The system isn't more complex. It is just that D&D is easier to gain access to and more people use it.

 

And at one point, here in Maryland, we had 6-8 people who could/would run HERO games. The numbers dropped a bit due to two of them moving away, one going to HEX, another to M&M, and some who've stopped gaming. But if you are willing to run a HERO game, you can get 4-6 players easy, none of whom complain about the rule books (much.)

[archermoo]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Eh, as far as business decisions go, I'll not pretend that I know more than the nice people at DoJ. They have access to a lot more information than I do and have done a pretty good job keeping in business through both a downturn in the RPG industry as well as a general downturn in the economy.

[TSandman]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

And at one point' date=' here in Maryland, we had 6-8 people who could/would run HERO games. The numbers dropped a bit due to two of them moving away, one going to HEX, another to M&M, and some who've stopped gaming. But if you are willing to run a HERO game, you can get 4-6 players easy, none of whom complain about the rule books (much.)[/quote']

 

We have to face it... the Barrier to Entry in the hero world is HUGE...

 

Less Known than many other games (D&D, Vampire, etc)

Huge Books to read before even attempting to play

Players need to think a lot more than just slap on templates to create characters

 

Many just want to play nearly immediately (instant gratification anyone?) I know, I was like that when I first started D&D over 20 years ago. I didn't want to read the whole DMG (1st ed was BIG) before playing ...

 

The Younger generation have a lot of option to spend their times. CCG, Videogames, Internet (facebook, twitter, youtube), etc. They go for the easiest and fastest to learn/play. Which is why the two Big Blue Books looks pretty intimidating for most of them.

 

Many adult simply do not have the time to go through all the books they'd need to play Hero... many sticks with what they already know, which would be mostly D&D, GURPS, Vampire, etc... better read a few small books that each add to the others than two HUGE books that contain everything.

 

Some, like my own group, finally got fed up of the mechanics of certain RPG and finally wanted to play OUR game with OUR characters. so we ditched D&D/Pathfinder for Hero (we still might play some Mage:The Ascension, but not the latest version of it - we do not like what they did with it).

 

Unfortunately, HERO cannot be "toned-down" more that it really is, unless you want only the Basic Rulebook. there would be too many building block missing and we'd all need to come up with houserules ourselves to make it fit together (not that many don't, it's just that it takes more time to create them).

 

If you remove the Time factor in the equation, much more people would play...

[Marcus Impudite]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I would' date=' but my face was made for audio...[/quote']

That didn't stop this guy...

[Tom Carman]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

That statement shows absolutely no consciousness of how to build a business. You build a business by generating 2.5 percent of additional new customers a year' date=' not by catering to your current fanbase. You want more new people to play the game so your company makes money. HERO system is not solely for the people who hang out on the HERO boards. It's for the people of the world.[/quote']

 

Never EVER ignore your current fanbase, or throw them under bus in favor of prospective new customers! SOE made this fundamental blunder with Star Wars Galaxies. That game never recovered, and SOE got a bad reputation that just wont go away.

 

I live in Tenafly, New Jersey. I am the only Champions GM within 20 miles.

 

We have some games pretty regularly in Princeton, at least during the school year.

[megaplayboy]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

And at one point' date=' here in Maryland, we had 6-8 people who could/would run HERO games. The numbers dropped a bit due to two of them moving away, one going to HEX, another to M&M, and some who've stopped gaming. But if you are willing to run a HERO game, you can get 4-6 players easy, none of whom complain about the rule books (much.)[/quote']

 

I think there's probably 50 Hero gamers within 150 miles of DC, the problem is they're not all in the same general area or similarly situated with respect to free time, access to transit/car, etc. ATM I'm in law school, so my campaign is comatose at least until I'm done taking the Bar exam next July.

[JmOz]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

And I am turning away players in MINOT ND because my group has more than I can handle already(8)...population 36k

[The Main Man]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Got a group that sometimes reaches 10 members when everyone can come.

[Balabanto]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

We have to face it... the Barrier to Entry in the hero world is HUGE...

 

Less Known than many other games (D&D, Vampire, etc)

Huge Books to read before even attempting to play

Players need to think a lot more than just slap on templates to create characters

 

Many just want to play nearly immediately (instant gratification anyone?) I know, I was like that when I first started D&D over 20 years ago. I didn't want to read the whole DMG (1st ed was BIG) before playing ...

 

The Younger generation have a lot of option to spend their times. CCG, Videogames, Internet (facebook, twitter, youtube), etc. They go for the easiest and fastest to learn/play. Which is why the two Big Blue Books looks pretty intimidating for most of them.

 

Many adult simply do not have the time to go through all the books they'd need to play Hero... many sticks with what they already know, which would be mostly D&D, GURPS, Vampire, etc... better read a few small books that each add to the others than two HUGE books that contain everything.

 

Some, like my own group, finally got fed up of the mechanics of certain RPG and finally wanted to play OUR game with OUR characters. so we ditched D&D/Pathfinder for Hero (we still might play some Mage:The Ascension, but not the latest version of it - we do not like what they did with it).

 

Unfortunately, HERO cannot be "toned-down" more that it really is, unless you want only the Basic Rulebook. there would be too many building block missing and we'd all need to come up with houserules ourselves to make it fit together (not that many don't, it's just that it takes more time to create them).

 

If you remove the Time factor in the equation, much more people would play...

 

I submit to you that the same thing can be done by paying for a good copy editor.

[TSandman]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I submit to you that the same thing can be done by paying for a good copy editor.

 

Maybe, maybe not...

 

Hero is complex, not complicated...

 

The Books are full of Crunch, but to keep it digestible, it needs redundancy(1) in the text (clarification, examples, etc). As it is more building blocks than finished rpg system, it has a lot of flexibility, but it comes at a cost. The more Redundancy there is the easier you can grasp the info but the more space it takes up.

 

HERO is so different from the "average" RPG that it has to explain a lot. It's not just "pick a bloodline and a clan, distribute a few points". If you know other RPGs, then you have to "unlearn" many concept they taught you. If you knew nothing at all about other RPG and picked up HERO on a whim, then you have a whole world (RPGs) to take in and learn about. None is quick and easy. (I was "lucky", I already had unlearned D&D when bending my mind around Mage)

 

Once you "get" the paradigm you have to use, everything starts to fall in its own place and make sense.

 

 

Now, being able to distillate the essence of HERO so it is not daunting for newcommers is not easy. 6th has cleaned up things quite a bit and there is still work that could be done. How much and how it would be done, I do not know.

 

 

(1) redundancy in the linguistic sense http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redundancy_(linguistics)

[jtelson]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

The Books are full of Crunch' date=' but to keep it digestible, it needs redundancy(1) in the text (clarification, examples, etc). [/quote']

 

Great so I don't only have to pay for the same index twice but the same ideas multiple times - Insanity I say, Insanity. (Is there a shakes fist at heaven in defiance emotacon?)

 

Jim 'Someday it will be funny' Elson

[Hrimhari]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Maybe, maybe not...

 

Hero is complex, not complicated...

 

*snip*

 

Once you "get" the paradigm you have to use, everything starts to fall in its own place and make sense.

 

 

Now, being able to distillate the essence of HERO so it is not daunting for newcommers is not easy. 6th has cleaned up things quite a bit and there is still work that could be done. How much and how it would be done, I do not know.

There's definitely a moment when players, having made a character and had a few of the concepts explained to them, light up and suddenly go 'OH! I get it!'

 

With character generation, anyway. Making characters really does require a near-encyclopaedic knowledge of the system, which is why I tend to make characters with my players... most other systems, they can go away and come up with dudes all on their own. HERO has a much steeper learning curve. I have one player who can do that; even then, I have to craft it a bit with him for purposes of balance and house style (moreso style than rules).

 

However, what continues to be a bit of a barrier is the constant question of 'do I want to roll high or low this time?' One of the revolutions of D&D 3 was the unified dice mechanic that meant you ALWAYS wanted to roll high. I can't for the life of me figure out why Hero didn't go that way with 6th. I'm guessing that's been discussed already, however.

 

And I'm serious with that -- the question I get asked MOST often is 'high or low now?'

 

I'd houserule it, but with my group, using Hero Designer is pretty much non-optional and so it just ain't possible.

[Susano]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I fail to see why the "high or low" is an issue. It's very simply, to hit and skill rolls is low, damage is high. What's so hard about that?

[TSandman]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

There's definitely a moment when players, having made a character and had a few of the concepts explained to them, light up and suddenly go 'OH! I get it!'

 

With character generation, anyway. Making characters really does require a near-encyclopaedic knowledge of the system, which is why I tend to make characters with my players... most other systems, they can go away and come up with dudes all on their own. HERO has a much steeper learning curve. I have one player who can do that; even then, I have to craft it a bit with him for purposes of balance and house style (moreso style than rules).

 

That's the path I have taken with my group... I asked them what they wanted and built them characters, which I revised with them afterward. as it's our first "official" Hero game (we've tried once before but it was only a tranfer of another campain into HERO... too many relics of the old ) they want to see what they can do with what they have right now...

 

I'm fortunate that I have another player who read the books (it's the other one pushing the group for HERO) who can help me, as you've had yourself.

 

Maybe the players cannot come up with their character fully formed, but at least, they can play what they want (and not being limited to a race/class/clan/house/template mix). when this happens and they see that what they have is really what they asked for, or the basics of what they ask that will just need a few XP to become it, they'll want to play it.

 

However, what continues to be a bit of a barrier is the constant question of 'do I want to roll high or low this time?' One of the revolutions of D&D 3 was the unified dice mechanic that meant you ALWAYS wanted to roll high. I can't for the life of me figure out why Hero didn't go that way with 6th. I'm guessing that's been discussed already, however.

 

And I'm serious with that -- the question I get asked MOST often is 'high or low now?'

 

I'd houserule it, but with my group, using Hero Designer is pretty much non-optional and so it just ain't possible.

 

I've seen enough threads on the boards to see that it's mostly irritating on those comming form an Always Roll High game... and many that just used the equivalent Roll-High for Hero (it does exists, it's a simple mathematical manipulation.

 

This can be done after creating the character in HD... all you need is to replace the xx- for yy+ using the formula, or better, a small chart that gives it all to you... would be nicer if HD would let you swap from Roll-High to Roll-Low, but unless you can convice Simon to implement such an option...

[TSandman]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I fail to see why the "high or low" is an issue. It's very simply' date=' to hit and skill rolls is low, damage is high. What's so hard about that?[/quote']

 

It's counter-intuitive for some that rolling LOW means Success, when almost everything in society is Higher the Better.

 

Not everyone *understands* the mechanics, many will just want to roll the dices and be done with it... would it be the other way around, HERO would've been more popular than other "simple" (limited) RPGs

[Escafarc]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Great so I don't only have to pay for the same index twice but the same ideas multiple times - Insanity I say, Insanity. (Is there a shakes fist at heaven in defiance emotacon?)

 

Jim 'Someday it will be funny' Elson

 

I'm guessing you're jesting somewhat but I LOVE the index it's by far the most useful index of any RPG I've seen ever!

[Hrimhari]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

That's the path I have taken with my group... I asked them what they wanted and built them characters, which I revised with them afterward. as it's our first "official" Hero game (we've tried once before but it was only a tranfer of another campain into HERO... too many relics of the old ) they want to see what they can do with what they have right now...

 

I'm fortunate that I have another player who read the books (it's the other one pushing the group for HERO) who can help me, as you've had yourself.

 

Maybe the players cannot come up with their character fully formed, but at least, they can play what they want (and not being limited to a race/class/clan/house/template mix). when this happens and they see that what they have is really what they asked for, or the basics of what they ask that will just need a few XP to become it, they'll want to play it.

Now, imagine the same group, without any players at all having had experience.

 

D&D can be picked up easily by any group new to gaming. Hero gamers are like the Catholic priesthood -- they must be trained and anointed by one already inducted into the creed.

I've seen enough threads on the boards to see that it's mostly irritating on those comming form an Always Roll High game... and many that just used the equivalent Roll-High for Hero (it does exists, it's a simple mathematical manipulation.

 

This can be done after creating the character in HD... all you need is to replace the xx- for yy+ using the formula, or better, a small chart that gives it all to you... would be nicer if HD would let you swap from Roll-High to Roll-Low, but unless you can convice Simon to implement such an option...

Hehe. If I could get them to do the simple maths required to do that, then it wouldn't matter whether it was roll high or low. When in the middle of an intense fight, having to do coordinate substitution in your head (while strapped to a centrifuge) can take you out of the moment and back into reality. My players function better when they're in the gamespace and can simply roll what the sheet tells them instead of having to think about it.

[Hrimhari]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I fail to see why the "high or low" is an issue. It's very simply' date=' to hit and skill rolls is low, damage is high. What's so hard about that?[/quote']

What's easy for someone with an intuitive and trained grasp of the system is not what's simple for everyone... especially when you're in a fifteen-person fight and things are exploding.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

It's counter-intuitive for some that rolling LOW means Success, when almost everything in society is Higher the Better.

 

Not everyone *understands* the mechanics, many will just want to roll the dices and be done with it... would it be the other way around, HERO would've been more popular than other "simple" (limited) RPGs

 

 

Don't get me started. I have very little patience for this frankly. If you can't get you roll under your stat roll number ( in which a higher one is better BTW) I sure wouldn't hire you. I freely admit dealing with various groups of the public for years however has made me the general IQ to lower than I would tolerate in people I associate with socially.

[RPMiller]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

My, my how this thread has grown... both in length and topics.

 

To address a majority of the various discussions above:

 

When I got into the Hero System it was Champions (1st edition), and I was 12 years old. All my friends were 12 years old as well. We all figured out the mechanics, setting, and genre within just a couple hours of playing. Over the years, I admit that it has grown more complex, but the core of how it started is still there. Another huge asset to us were the various adventure books that were available. They helped us create a world to our liking by showing us how the adults do it. Sometimes we all get overly involved with trying to re-engineer that which worked. Perhaps instead of trying to "fix" the way things are now, what would happen if we went back to the first edition as a way to introduce the system and bring new people in--hopefully our children and their friends. Once they understand the simplicity of the system, they can jump forward to the 6th edition. If that sounds viable, then perhaps someone could explain how the Basic book for 6th couldn't achieve the same result? Taking it another step forward, perhaps DoJ could either rerelease the old adventures with just an insert for the updated character sheets, or perhaps pay someone to revamp them for them, or maybe even put out "One Sheet Adventures" like Savage Worlds does?

[Hrimhari]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Don't get me started. I have very little patience for this frankly. If you can't get you roll under your stat roll number ( in which a higher one is better BTW) I sure wouldn't hire you. I freely admit dealing with various groups of the public for years however has made me the general IQ to lower than I would tolerate in people I associate with socially.

IQ doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it. The player who seems to have the greatest problem with this is one of the smartest people I know... he just doesn't really cope well with switching rapidly from high to low when distracted by the drama of the scene. It's a personality thing, not a smart/stupid thing.