The Hero System is bland and over complicated

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

This boils down I think to what my father said: There are three types of people in this world. One, some who will love you no matter what. Two, some who will hate you no matter what. And three, some don't give a whit one way or the other about you. So why worry.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

One way Hero games could show its flexibilty would be to show the same built with different levels of complexity and styles. Take Dragon Master for example. One version could be a real simple only using the martial arts mastery example of HA from Hero 5thr. Another could be a more full write up using the hero system martial art rules and a third could be a heroic level (perhaps pulp ?). Now I'm not suggesting that a version should be made with all types of genres, but something like this could show the levels of complexity OR simplicty of characters you can build depending on gaming style. Also a little description of the rules set for each campaign would be nessecary . To be able to explain the hows and whys certain skills and abilites were built such and such away.

[Balabanto]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Not everyone ascribes to the "I must play only one pencil and paper roleplaying game" mentality.

 

 

 

They don't have to be. You can have rules that are fun to read, if the writer or writers include their own perspective (which should fit with the game itself). Also, examples can help get the reader into the rules.

 

Yes. The original writers of the game mastered this. Examples were fun to read. "Norse Storm Hammer God" was funny. "Doc Ravage, Man of Tin" was funny. But the problem isn't just the lack of entertaining material between the covers, it's also the intimidating size of the rulebooks and the cover art. The first thing out of one of my longtime gamers mouths was "My god! It looks like an auto repair manual."

 

Now, this could have been forgiven if it didn't READ like an auto-repair manual, but, according to them, it does. I've been running and reading Hero so long that the book is more of a "Are we wrong? Let's look this up" bit, but that won't change the opinion of my players. The technical constructions of words are excessively dense when simple, direct language or a bulleted list of do's and don'ts would have suffiiced. There are run-on sentences all over the place. Simply breaking these up would have made the book easier to read. My players are VERY happy that I purchased this for them as part of the social contract between myself and them that makes them Dave's playtesters, because this edition, they certainly wouldn't have purchased on their own.

 

What made all the editions up through 4th more readable was that they were funny and fun to read. This edition may serve the same purpose as the previous ones, but it's not as fun to read as 4th edition or editions earlier than that.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I came in at 5ER and never had any trouble reading the book. Never thought it read anything like an auto-repair manual. In fact, I'd go as far as to say anyone making that claim can't possibly have ever read an auto-repair manual...

[Lucius]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

While I have no doubt that the two products are well written and a good example of what folks are talking about' date=' to me the two genres for the books are kind of niche. No offense Darren, but I seriously doubt I will ever have the need or desire for Lucha Libre HERO. Just not my style. I know so little about PS238 that I wouldn't know if it was a worthwhile setting to explore. What HERO honestly needs is something more mainstream. A fantasy or sci-fi setting would be ideal. Even Dark Champions or Pulp would do the trick and require less setting explanation.[/quote']

 

About what I wanted to say, but better said than I would. I probably would have said it with less tact.

 

So Hero Games has already done what you've asked. Twice. Time will tell if they decide to do anymore like this in the future.

 

Oh, what the heck, I'm going to say it my way anyway, tact or no tact.

 

Ray Kroc's Hulaburger flopped. That proved it was a bad idea to put a pineapple slice on top of a beef patty in a bun. But instead of concluding “Putting a hamburger on a bun and piling stuff on top of it will never work” Kroc went on to learn that lots of other possible combinations of bun, beef, and toppings, would sell very well indeed, and that's why McDonald's is a household name today.

 

Yes, technically “Hero Games has already done what you've asked. Twice.” But in the same way that a genie in a story will grant a wish literally but frustrate the intent behind the wish.

 

The difference between the letter of what has been asked for, and what we really want – or at least what I really want, and I think most of the rest of us who are speaking in similar terms – is that when you see the words “setting” or “genre” you should mentally amend it to read “setting or genre that significant numbers of gamers might actually want to play in.”

 

No, it is NOT just that I, personally, have close to zero interest in playing Mexican masked wrestlers. It is that I can go to my friendly local game store on any given Friday or Saturday night and find rooms full of people interested in playing fantasy role playing games, but in my entire life with the sole exception of when I was at GenCon I have never, to my knowledge, been in the presence of a person with an interest in playing a role playing game based on Mexican masked wrestling. I'm sure they exist, but I'm just as sure that the Lucha Libre gaming market, compared to the fantasy gaming market, is not even a drop in a bucket – it's a drop in a large lake.

 

As for PS238 – if I went into a comic book store and started counting, what do you think the ratio of titles featuring pre-teen superhumans would be compared to titles featuring teen and adult superpowered characters? I'll admit that I don't know near as much about comics as almost anyone on this board, but I'd be surprised if anyone can say with a straight face that the ratio would be anything but very lopsided in favor of the latter. Last time I was in a comics store I didn't see any pre-teen characters but then I wasn't looking for them either.

 

Now, granted, I think the idea behind Lucha Libre Hero and perhaps even PS238 is to draw in people who are not already gamers – and that's a good idea and may even work. I hope it does, actually.

 

But I think there's an implication being made that the success or failure of PS238 or Lucha Libre has some relevance to the question of whether a similar product built around, say, an interesting and engaging fantasy setting would be successful. That implication would even be reasonable, IF I could go down to my friendly local game store and find a D20 Lucha Libre game every weekend, or maybe, just maybe, even IF I could go a comic store and find several variations on the Power Puff Girls theme are selling as well as Superman and Teen Titans and Spiderman. But as it is, even if either or both products flop, all that proves is that not many people want to play Mexican masked wrestlers or have adventures set in uberwunderkindergarten. For that matter, both could be big hits and I am not sure how much that would prove about whether any variation of the proposals for a rules-and-setting-complete-package would work, if based on a genre already known to be popular with role playing gamers.

 

 

In other words, I don't think you can use the sales figures for the Hulaburger to make a credible prediction about how popular the Big Mac will be.

 

 

 

In fact, it occurs to me that we already HAVE a much more valid precedent to look at – The original Fantasy Hero, Justice Inc, and other Hero games of that era, are pretty much exactly what I think we're talking about. Granted, the market has surely changed some in the intervening years, but even so I think they're much more relevant than the Hulaburg – I mean, Lucha Libre. If the formula has worked for Hero in the past, might it not be worth trying again?

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary will eat a Hulaburger, but what does that prove?

[Greywind]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Yes. The original writers of the game mastered this. Examples were fun to read. "Norse Storm Hammer God" was funny. "Doc Ravage' date=' Man of Tin" was funny. But the problem isn't just the lack of entertaining material between the covers, it's also the intimidating size of the rulebooks and the cover art. The first thing out of one of my longtime gamers mouths was "My god! It looks like an auto repair manual." [/quote']Try reading the full rules for Star Fleet Battles. Reads like a military manual.

[Balabanto]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Try reading the full rules for Star Fleet Battles. Reads like a military manual.

 

That's not, in my opinion, a positive statement on the nature of game design. The original designers knew how crunchy the system was. Therefore, they created funny and/or entertaining examples to make understanding them fun. It worked.

[Greywind]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

And since 95% of the purchasers of the current rule set already play or use the game in some manner, it tends to be a non-issue.

[Nolgroth]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Lucius, you really know your McDonald's history. Somehow that frightens me.

[Ragitsu]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

And since 95% of the purchasers of the current rule set already play or use the game in some manner' date=' it tends to be a non-issue.[/quote']

 

Where'd the figure come from?

[archermoo]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Ray Kroc's Hulaburger flopped. That proved it was a bad idea to put a pineapple slice on top of a beef patty in a bun.

 

Minor note: The hulaburger wasn't a slice of pineapple on top of a beef patty. It was a slice of pineapple instead of a beef patty. The intent of the hulaburger was to give catholics who were forbidden from eating meat on Fridays something to still buy at McDs. The hulaburger flopped, they tried the fillet-o-fish instead and that worked and is still on the menu.

[Susano]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Exactly! Something like that but bigger and more flushed out.

 

What about Kazei 5? Or Gestalt?

[Susano]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Hero is not a very bloody system as characters are usually knocked out before taking many wounds

I like a little blood in my games but must characters don't have the body to give it

atleast not without dire consequenies.

 

Try playing with Hit Locations, Killing Attacks, and limited access to heavy armor. You'll get a heck of a body count.

[megaplayboy]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Try playing with Hit Locations' date=' Killing Attacks, and limited access to heavy armor. You'll get a heck of a body count.[/quote']

 

Toss in Bleeding, Disabling and Impairing wounds, and realistic limitations on recovering Body, and yeah, it'll start to resemble Harnmaster.

[Susano]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

For everyone complaining about the size of Hero 6E 1 & 2, I'd like to mention that at the pre-11th level get-together we had for the DnD 4E game I was in, people had milk crates of DnD books. Something akin to $350-$500 worth of books... the Players Handbooks (up to #3 I think), DMG 1 & 2, Monster Manuals 1-3, setting books (Eberron, Forgotten Realms, and so on). And have you read these things? They're not every interesting either.

[Steve]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

For everyone complaining about the size of Hero 6E 1 & 2' date=' I'd like to mention that at the pre-11th level get-together we had for the 4nD 4E game I was in, people had [u']milk crates[/u] of DnD books. Something akin to $350-$500 worth of books... the Players Handbooks (up to #3 I think), DMG 1 & 2, Monster Manuals 1-3, setting books (Eberron, Forgotten Realms, and so on). And have you read these things? They're not every interesting either.

 

And what makes the latest versions of D&D (both v3 and v4) frustrating is that it reminds me of GURPS, especially v3. You build a character using the basic rules PLUS feats and abilities that are found scattered across a myriad of books separate from the core rules. I was invited to play in a high-level D&D 3.5 campaign, and it's taken me information from almost a dozen books to make the character.

[Enforcer84]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

True' date=' but are any of them out there on Youtube?[/quote']

 

judging from what I've seen? All of them.

[Susano]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

And what makes the latest versions of D&D (both v3 and v4) frustrating is that it reminds me of GURPS' date=' especially v3. You build a character using the basic rules PLUS feats and abilities that are found scattered across a myriad of books separate from the core rules. I was invited to play in a high-level D&D 3.5 campaign, and it's taken me information from almost a dozen books to make the character.[/quote']

 

Yeah.. I'm playing a swordmage, which requires several books to pull off. Not to mention each new PHB adds new PC races and each new setting book adds new classes. Naturally... you need the DnD on-line character builder to keep it all straight.

 

And for the record, while the game I'm in is fun, the system has left me rather unimpressed.

[BeZurKur]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

To be fair, saying you need anything other than the core books -- actually, just the PHB -- to play D&D 4e is like saying you need the Hero Ultimate Powers to play Hero. Neither is true.

 

I'm getting the vibe that some posters are defending their point personally. I certainly can't speak for everyone, but just to reiterate, my points are:

 

• This tread started because someone posted a youtube video that made a side comment of Hero that it was bland and complicated.
  
• Without making any judgement of the system itself, I agree it is presented -- let's use -- generic and thorough.
  
• Many other gamers agree with the youtube video, hence the fanbase consists mainly of gamers in their 30-40's who began playing pre-5th ed.
  

Is any of that up for debate?

[ghost-angel]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

The biggest difference between Hero and, for example, D&D4E is that you cannot open up the Hero Book make a character and start playing. You can do this with D&D.

 

That makes D&D a Game, and Hero not a Game.

 

Saying Hero is a Bland System based solely on reading the rules is saying that cars make poor airplanes and therefore aren't any good. It's a fundamental error on how to use the two different sets of books.

 

I think peoples fundamental mistake is to compare Hero to a game like D&D in any way to begin with.

[casualplayer]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I think the general distaste of the videoblogger's review of the game was that he said specifically that he was not familiar with the system or well-versed in the rules and he decided to review the system anyway. Why let a little thing like facts and research get in the way of having and voicing an opinion?

 

I've done published reviews before, gaming and otherwise, and his behavior was sloppy, unprofessional and lethally damaging to his credibility.

[Susano]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

The biggest difference between Hero and, for example, D&D4E is that you cannot open up the Hero Book make a character and start playing. You can do this with D&D.

 

That makes D&D a Game, and Hero not a Game.

 

Saying Hero is a Bland System based solely on reading the rules is saying that cars make poor airplanes and therefore aren't any good. It's a fundamental error on how to use the two different sets of books.

 

I think peoples fundamental mistake is to compare Hero to a game like D&D in any way to begin with.

 

Well, I wasn't comparing the systems, just the sheer number of books.

[Ragitsu]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Someone should put up a positive, actually TOLERANT face for HERO on Youtube .

[TSandman]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Try reading the full rules for Star Fleet Battles. Reads like a military manual.

 

 

Well... SFB was created by Stephen V. Cole an engineer and former US Army intelligence officer... (From Wikipedia)

 

What would be more dry^H^H^Hdetailed than a Military Engineering manual?

[ThistledownJohn]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Someone should put up a positive' date=' actually TOLERANT face for HERO on Youtube .[/quote']

 

I would, but my face was made for audio...