The Hero System is bland and over complicated

[RPMiller]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

The simple answer is that "This is Hero."

 

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[RexMundi]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

And again, DnD is kicked into the Pit of Doom. Methinks the Spartans wouldn't have cared much for d20 in General.

 

~Rex

[Greywind]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

D20s would fit nicely in just about any sling.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I know a lot of long time hero gamers don't get it' date=' but it has been an issue for [b']every single group[/b] of hero newbies I've taught (and I've taught a lot of people: it's the only way I can get a game of Hero ). It's not an impossible issue, but it is an issue, just as it was with D&D. Saying "Well, it shouldn't be an issue" isn't helpful. Maybe it shouldn't .... but it is. Given that we'd like to encourage new players, I do think the missed opportunity to simply/unify mechanisms with 6E was a shame.

 

cheers, Mark

 

 

Well, obviously I disagree and remind you how little stock you normally place in anecdotal evidence.

 

But if we going to go there. Admittedly I've introduced relatively fewer people to HERO by the sounds of it but the roll low has never been an issue more than a an "OK I get" after explaining it. My daughters entire D&D group switched to HERO rather than go 4th edition D&D for example. Out of her 7 person group no one had any problem.

[Hrimhari]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Well, obviously I disagree and remind you how little stock you normally place in anecdotal evidence normally.

 

But if we going to go there. Admittedly I've introduced relatively fewer people to HERO by the sounds of it but the roll low has never been an issue more than a an "OK I get" after explaining it. My daughters entire D&D group switched to HERO rather than go 4th edition D$D for example. Out of her 7 person group no one had any problem.

Anecdotal evidence has its place. If a particular problem is claimed to exist, anecdotal evidence can show that it DOES exist, though not how widespread it is. Your counter-evidence shows that it's not universal. So the problem is somewhere between 0.000001% and 99.999999%.

 

I'm just sayin' that in my opinion, the extent to which it IS a problem, and to which there are various barriers to entry/understanding by new players, is underestimated by long-time Hero players. If you find something very easy, it's difficult to see how someone else can find it hard without being stupid. Those D&D players being made fun of in this thread? D&D is a big game not just because of the brand name recognition, but because it's exceedingly good at being the RPG gateway drug. If we want to increase the Hero playerbase, those are precisely the kind of people who are going to be the prime targets.

 

The former is really the only point I've been trying to make, which is why this little tangent has been going on. ^_- It IS a problem. How widespread it is, that I can't prove and simply don't know. But it DOES exist.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

The former is really the only point I've been trying to make, which is why this little tangent has been going on. ^_- It IS a problem. How widespread it is, that I can't prove and simply don't know. But it DOES exist.

 

 

I see your point, however I would obviously prefer what I is feel a superior system not be scrapped in favor of one I like less because people can't adapt to something so simple..

[RexMundi]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Rolling Low or under a ceiling has been a part of just as many if not more RPG's as rolling High or trying to beat a target number. Heck, for the better part of two decades, folks really didn't have issues understanding -10 was better then +10 and Thac0 still makes more sense to a lot of people then piling up big numbers and adding a variable to it to beat an even bigger static number..... I would call the supposed problem, a non issue. Some folks can't work a toaster. That doesn't mean toasting is a bland and over complicated art and that there is a problem with toasters.

 

~Rex

[TSandman]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Some folks can't work a toaster. That doesn't mean toasting is a bland and over complicated art and that there is a problem with toasters.

 

~Rex

 

TOASTER: Howdy doodly do! How’s it going? I’m Talkie, Talkie Toaster, your chirpy breakfast companion. Talkie’s the name, toasting’s the game. Anyone like any toast?

LISTER: Look, I don’t want any toast, and he doesn’t want any toast. In fact, no one around here wants any toast. Not now, not ever. No toast!

TOASTER: How ’bout a muffin?

LISTER: Or muffins! Or muffins! We don’t like muffins around here! We want no muffins, no toast, no teacakes, no buns, baps, baguettes or bagels, no croissants, no crumpets, no pancakes, no potato cakes, and no hot cross buns, and definitely no smegging flapjacks!

TOASTER: Ah, so you’re a waffle man!

[Markdoc]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Rolling Low or under a ceiling has been a part of just as many if not more RPG's as rolling High or trying to beat a target number. Heck, for the better part of two decades, folks really didn't have issues understanding -10 was better then +10 and Thac0 still makes more sense to a lot of people then piling up big numbers and adding a variable to it to beat an even bigger static number..... I would call the supposed problem, a non issue. Some folks can't work a toaster. That doesn't mean toasting is a bland and over complicated art and that there is a problem with toasters.

 

~Rex

 

Except that D&D gaming boards were filled to overflowing with complaints about THACO and the 3.0 design team made its elimination in favour of a simple and intuitive unified mechanism a priority. Many gamers cited that change as one of the two best things about 3.0 and although the grognards hated it, there's no question it was overwhelmingly popular with the fanbase.

 

Of course, there's no need for Hero to follow in D&D's footsteps (after all, we wouldn't want our game to get too popular .... wait, yes I would!) but the arguments here sound uncannily like the arguments in favour of retaining THACO and in hindsight getting rid of it was a smart design decision.

 

 

cheers, Mark

[JmOz]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Except where it was a major issue with the D&D fanbase, it has never seemed to be with the majority of Hero. While there are a couple of people who have said they wanted it, most hero players in general don't want it or don't care about it, while there are a couple who when the issue comes up says they would prefer it, I don't feel it has nearly the support the change to D&D had. Personaly I would do the skill system very differently if I had my way...

[Netzilla]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Except that D&D gaming boards were filled to overflowing with complaints about THACO and the 3.0 design team made its elimination in favour of a simple and intuitive unified mechanism a priority. Many gamers cited that change as one of the two best things about 3.0 and although the grognards hated it, there's no question it was overwhelmingly popular with the fanbase.

 

Of course, there's no need for Hero to follow in D&D's footsteps (after all, we wouldn't want our game to get too popular .... wait, yes I would!) but the arguments here sound uncannily like the arguments in favour of retaining THACO and in hindsight getting rid of it was a smart design decision.

 

cheers, Mark

 

So, does rolling low really stop people from learning to play systems? There are lots of roll-under systems out there besides ours: GURPS, Call of Cthulhu, Harn, Traveller, BESM, the various Warhammer/40K RPGs (not sure about Warhammer 3rd), Fading Suns, etc. Some of these have been as or more popular than Hero (some still are). Sure, none of them are as popular as D&D but then nothing is as popular as D&D.

 

THACO was so unpopular because it was a poorly-explained mechanic. Prior to 3e, D&D was the most popular RPG for nearly 25 years (okay for about 5 of those it didn't have any competition to speak of) even though it used both roll high (to hit & saves) and roll low (thieving skills & non-weapon proficiencies). D&D's popularity has always been about much more than game mechanics. Heck, 3rd & 4th edition still have legacy mechanics that I see people frequently complain about (far more than they complain about any roll-under system): levels, classes & hit points. It still remains the #1 RPG out there. So, I really doubt changing Hero to a roll-high system would suddenly make it anywhere near as popular as D&D.

 

If roll-under were a common barrier to learning a system, why is it used by so many different games? If roll-under is so hard to understand, what must these people think of dice-pool mechanics which seem far more complex (to me)? I've run and played in plenty of con games that use roll-under mechanics and I've never once heard anyone complain about rolling under being a problem, no matter if they were new to the game or not. When I read other message boards where people express their distaste for the Hero System, I've never once seen the fact that it's a roll-under system listed as one of the reasons for that distaste. Usually I see hyperbolic references to needing math degrees, needing to be a lawyer, complaints about the speed chart, too many dice, lack of lethality and page count. Roll-under never seems to come into it.

 

I'm not saying that no one ever has that complaint (even if I've never seen it outside of these boards from existing Hero players). I'm saying that I don't think it's anywhere close to be a significant percentage of the non-Hero gaming population. As a result, I don't think a switch to roll-high would appreciably increase Hero's popularity.

[JmOz]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

to add to that well stated post:

 

Also consider that there is a cost to doing it to, it will alienate a certain portion of your base. Any change to the system must be looked at from a how much does this help vs how much does this hurt

[teh bunneh]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Whenever I run a con game for people who've never played Hero, I say two simple sentences:

 

"In Hero, when I ask you to make a roll, you roll 3d6 and try to roll low -- equal to or less than the number on your character sheet."

 

And:

 

"When you roll for damage, roll the number of dice listed on your charsheet, and try to roll high."

 

I've played with complete RPG newbies, little kids, old ladies, D&D grognards, everyone under the sun. But no one has ever had a problem with the system once you explain this very simple mechanic. It's entirely possible that people are making it harder than it needs to be. I mean, I suppose if you're trying to explain every single little nuance and odd situation that might come up, it can seem complicated. So the answer would be: Don't overcomplicate things. "Roll low to hit, roll high for damage" is simple, straightforward, and easy to grasp.

 

EDIT: I'm not saying that there's nobody out there who has difficulty with the concept (obviously, from the stories folks are telling, some people do). But I just wonder if the solution isn't to explain things better (and more simply) than to change the way we roll dice.

[Markdoc]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

The problem is not with the concept - which is easy enough to explain - it's in getting them to do the math. For some reason, it really seems to be a stumbling block with some people. In the end, I got so sick of being asked "How do I calculate this again?" or "Do I need to roll high or low this time?" that I simply swapped to "roll high" and watched the problem vanish.

 

Had it been one person, or even one group, I would have just shrugged my shoulders and thought it was a bit weird. But there's been at least one person in each of 4 groups now - and I found that other GMs have had similar experiences, so it's a non-trivial number of new players.

 

Is it worth making the change? Personally, I think so. New players who stumble over math in-game are players who walk away thinking "Hero is hard to play". Even if it's only a quarter of people (which seems to be about the rough estimate judging from the last time we had this discussion) that seems like a lot to turn away for no real reason. Mathematically, "roll high" is no different to "roll low". There's noting inherently superior to the method we use now: it's just "what we've always done" - and that for me, is a really, really weak excuse to do anything.

 

To me, it's more that if you lose nothing mechanically, or in terms of system design, why wouldn't you choose the option that makes it easier for new players?

 

cheers, Mark

[archermoo]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I would rather watch paint dry' date=' than play HERO.[/quote']

 

Which is pretty much my opinion of D&D. But I don't go to the WotC D&D forums to tell people about it...

[archermoo]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I know a lot of long time hero gamers don't get it' date=' but it has been an issue for [b']every single group[/b] of hero newbies I've taught (and I've taught a lot of people: it's the only way I can get a game of Hero ). It's not an impossible issue, but it is an issue, just as it was with D&D. Saying "Well, it shouldn't be an issue" isn't helpful. Maybe it shouldn't .... but it is. Given that we'd like to encourage new players, I do think the missed opportunity to simply/unify mechanisms with 6E was a shame.

 

cheers, Mark

 

I've never actually gamed with anyone who had a problem with it. Not once. I've introduced quite a number of people to Hero, and have seen quite a number of issues with people being able to grasp Hero concepts. But until I started posting here it had never even occurred to me that this would even have the potential of being a problem. When I first saw people talking about it I assumed that they were joking.

 

Right up there with people claiming that the term "Stunned" is confusing. Problems that I've only ever heard of here on the Hero boards and have never come across "in the wild".

[teh bunneh]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

The problem is not with the concept - which is easy enough to explain - it's in getting them to do the math. For some reason' date=' it really seems to be a stumbling block with some people. In the end, I got so sick of being asked "How do I calculate this again?" or "Do I need to roll high or low this time?" that I simply swapped to "roll high" and watched the problem vanish.[/quote']

 

I guess I don't quite follow. Is it a problem with adding three dice together in their heads? I know people who have a little trouble with that (heck, on my off days I can have trouble with that!). I guess I don't quite understand what's going on. Does the person say, "I have a 12- skill roll, I rolled a 10... I'm not sure if that's lower or not"? How does it become different when a person says, "I have an 8+ skill roll, I rolled a 10..."?

 

I mean, if you say it's a problem then it's a problem. I just can't quite wrap my head around where the problem is coming from, though. Unless it's just that people have trouble adding three dice together (common, and understandable), but roll high or roll low, not sure how that changes things.

[Wolf]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

For me, I've seen the roll low as a slight stumbling block, but usually one that disappears after the first game session, as it's really an easy concept. But again, that's my experience, and everyone seems to be having a different time with this.

 

See, the problem, like what happened with D&D, when you change a system (Thac0 to "target number," I say this because Thac0 was never roll under, a nat 20 still was what you wanted, the skill system sure, but I never heard any complaint about the skill system in 2nd ed and before). is you usually change the dynamic of the system.

 

Why does D&D feel different when at higher levels (in 3.x and 4.0) than it felt (in 2nd ed)? because you got rid of the closed system. Used to be that you had 20 "places" if you will that you defense could occupy. Everyone knew that the best you could do was -10 AC. When they made the switch to Target number, they got rid of that system entirely, and the system suffers at a higher level because of it. They try to mitigate it by limiting what AC buffs can be used together, but you still end up with either "to hit" going way over the avg. AC, or your AC outstripping the avg. "to hit." And this usually happens at the same time with two different PC's in your party. They also effectively removed the limits to spell casters, but that's a different discussion.

 

The point is your problem occurred when you took a "closed roll" system and opened it up without a MASSIVE overhaul of the system... So everything went out of control... look at the magic items in 2nd ed... (the stat buff ones) they don't give you +xyz to stat, they say that it just puts you at xyz stat number. They had a control over the explosion of stuff.

 

I don't care, roll low, roll high, but one reason Hero works so well is you are kept to a internal and sliding (but CLOSED) system. No matter you could have a OCV of 300, but if the dude that your fighting also has a DCV of 300, then your STILL only rolling 11-.... I'd hate to see an explosion that goes outside of this closed system, because when you open the doors (if you will) to the system then you get problems containing the interaction of characters.

 

Before I get my stuff jumped all over, yes in both Thac0 D&D, and Hero you can go slightly outside these restraints (10 through -10, there was a dragon I think who had an AC of -11, and if you were a lvl 20 ftr with a magic weapon, and high str bonus, you went over. And in Hero you have from 3-18 but you can go around these slightly) but in the end in both games those limits are not encroached on very often, and even when they are, it's not game breaking, it's that these folks are far superior to their "normal" counterparts... not to mention it takes a massive amount of time and work to get your heroes to that point, so there is some level of you earned it.

 

Now you keep the system closed, fine, I don't care, roll high, roll low... whatever. I don't see the issue being a problem, however I think if we moved things to a roll high and didn't change the closed system, I fear you would still have math that would have to be used to make the system closed again.... and the math is the problem. Lazy, Lazy people, and they encounter math, so then their brain decides, "this is entertainment, I don't want to work." There is your problem, not the roll under.

 

My 2 Copper.

[Wolf]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

The only math issue I've really seen, and see as the "problem" though not much of one is the (from a new player standpoint) (X+11)-Y. People often ask me, why, do we need that... once I show them the closed system, and how when both OCV and DCV cancel each other out, that plus 11 gives you your avg target number, and then moves the difficulty around from there, creating a sliding range in that system. After that they seem to "get it." and we have no more issues. But yah, I've been asked many times, "why add 11?"

[Susano]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

My 2 Copper.

 

Copper?

 

We deal in lead friend.

[archermoo]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Copper?

 

We deal in lead friend.

 

How about copper jacketed lead?

[Susano]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

How about copper jacketed lead?

 

I can work with that.

[Wolf]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

My 2 lead then

[RexMundi]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Really the only Math issue I have run across, ones the basic mechanic is explained as Bunneh pointed out, Is that it takes a few rolls for grognards and newbies to get used to counting body and stun. Once that's out of the way, easy sailing.

 

~Rex

[Netzilla]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

The problem is not with the concept - which is easy enough to explain - it's in getting them to do the math. For some reason' date=' it really seems to be a stumbling block with some people. In the end, I got so sick of being asked "How do I calculate this again?" or "Do I need to roll high or low this time?" that I simply swapped to "roll high" and watched the problem vanish.[/quote']

 

{snipped for brevity}

 

Did you run into this more with skill rolls or with attack rolls? I'm betting it's attack rolls. I have seen people stumble over the Hero to hit mechanic, especially when the old way (OCV + 11 - DCV = target) is used. That's why I changed up my character sheets a bit. On the top of the sheet, where OCV used to be, I put the following:

 

Condition    OCV   +11   To Hit
---------    ---   ---   ------
Full          8    +11     19-
Half          4    +11     15-
Zero          0    +11     11-

Once I started doing that and telling new players, you're trying to roll your To Hit or less on 3d6, let me know how much you make it by, I stopped seeing problems.