Dragons

[quozaxx]

Dragons have been very popular through the ages, and Fantasy Hero is no exception. So I thought it'd be a good idea to dedicate a thread just on the subjects of dragons.

 

Dragon Art, Dragon jokes, How dragons in your campaign are perceived - are they evil, good, or somewhere inbetween, anything dragon related.

[Old Man]

Re: Dragons

 

Dragons are always favorite adversaries because you know that if you can bring it down, kewl lewtz await!

 

In actuality PC-dragon combat always annoyed me since it is often handled badly. Logically a flying critter the size of a two story building armed with a breath weapon should be almost invincible simply because you can't reach it. Even on the ground, it should be hard to reach any hit location on the thing that isn't 7-8 or 14-18. I never did figure out a good way to modelthat in-game.

[Lezentauw]

Re: Dragons

 

I kind of liked Dark Suns approach. Only one true dragon exists. While I like dragons I cannot imagine a world with a lot them around. At least not unless it is a world with a high death total for every other species.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Dragons

 

Well, of course, you can say that most dragons aren't all that huge, until they get a lot older. If the average dragon is maybe the size of an alligator, with wings and a modest breath weapon, then they're nasty enough to imagine them raiding farms and carrying off large livestock, but not so nasty that they're a threat to burn whole cities to the ground.

[TSandman]

Re: Dragons

 

Well, I'm biased... I'm starting an Iron Kingdomesque campaign and there, Dragons are few and far between... all descendent of Lord Toruk (not a god, but powerfull enough to give magic to his "priests", mostly Necromancy and Necrotech)...

 

They're all Unique and to give you an idea of the power they have, the "lamest" is, in D&D terms, CR 30.

 

Drakes takes the place of "regular" dragons...

[TSandman]

Re: Dragons

 

Well' date=' of course, you can say that most dragons aren't all that huge, until they get a lot older. If the average dragon is maybe the size of an alligator, with wings and a modest breath weapon, then they're nasty enough to imagine them raiding farms and carrying off large livestock, but not so nasty that they're a threat to burn whole cities to the ground.[/quote']

 

Discworld's Swamp Dragons comes to mind

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Dragons

 

I know I've posted it somewhere else on the boards, but I felt it appropriate for this thread...

My favorites are "pre-zombies" and "chubby liches":o

[Lezentauw]

Re: Dragons

 

Well, I'm biased... I'm starting an Iron Kingdomesque campaign and there, Dragons are few and far between... all descendent of Lord Toruk (not a god, but powerfull enough to give magic to his "priests", mostly Necromancy and Necrotech)...

 

They're all Unique and to give you an idea of the power they have, the "lamest" is, in D&D terms, CR 30.

 

Drakes takes the place of "regular" dragons...

 

I think that I am pretty close in that regard. Though for me even Drakes are extremely rare...

 

Torwards the end of my D&D days, I remember doing a run where the group actually wanted to go into a Dragon's lair to kill the foul beast. I tried to tell that that was a bad idea with me running the session, with the intent on them going after a Dragon. They insisted that their PCs could handle it, and that I would run the session in a manner that they would enjoy the rewards more. Unfortunately none survived. A couple of the players loved the outcome, and refused to let the session be retconned into a dream. A few of the players were a little more than upset.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Dragons

 

Well' date=' of course, you can say that most dragons aren't all that huge, until they get a lot older. If the average dragon is maybe the size of an alligator, with wings and a modest breath weapon, then they're nasty enough to imagine them raiding farms and carrying off large livestock, but not so nasty that they're a threat to burn whole cities to the ground.[/quote']

 

For example, check out this famous painting by Gustave Moreau of St. George slaying his "dragon." Makes the knight look like something of a bully.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Dragons

 

Dragons are always favorite adversaries because you know that if you can bring it down, kewl lewtz await!

 

In actuality PC-dragon combat always annoyed me since it is often handled badly. Logically a flying critter the size of a two story building armed with a breath weapon should be almost invincible simply because you can't reach it. Even on the ground, it should be hard to reach any hit location on the thing that isn't 7-8 or 14-18. I never did figure out a good way to modelthat in-game.

 

Even worse from the perspective of published HERO dragon stats, is the DCV penalty to the dragon due to large size. I've been in more than one game where PCs stand back and pepper the dragon with head shots for maximum Hit Location damage, which the DCV penalty makes far easier than with human-sized opponents.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Dragons

 

I have only used a Dragon once in all of my campaigns. It was in Rolemaster and it was a TPK. In my Kamarathin setting they don't exist outside of legend and myth. In my Rolemaster games they do exist, but most right-minded PC's leave them alone.

 

They tend to be more subtle and work behind the scenes rather than the easier, more barbaric method, of flamebasting and killing the local populace.

[Lucius]

Re: Dragons

 

For example' date=' check out this famous painting by Gustave Moreau of St. George slaying his "dragon." Makes the knight look like something of a bully.

 

ah yes that would be the one where the dragon is the size of a turkey?

 

edit: No, I was thinking of another one where the damsel/princess is standing there and it looks like the dragon is her pet.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says, as opposed to dragons the size of Turkey, that keep princesses as pets

[Markdoc]

Re: Dragons

 

For example' date=' check out this famous painting by Gustave Moreau of St. George slaying his "dragon." Makes the knight look like something of a bully.

 

As Lucius has said, there are some where the dragon is even smaller and punier. I've always thought in those cases, the rescued maiden could have shown some spine - she could easily have kicked it far away, like it was a gnome's badger ... err .. minion.

 

Like this, for example.

Don't stab it, man! Get off your horse and give it a good kicking. That's all that's really required.

 

 

This, on the other hand is more what dragons are like in my game (though they can get significantly bigger):

Scary and bitey, but not city-levellers - and typically not hoarders of gold either.

 

However, dragons in my game are monsters - meaning manufactured by wizards - not natural creatures, so their nature is highly variable.

 

cheers, Mark

[Lezentauw]

Re: Dragons

 

Even worse from the perspective of published HERO dragon stats' date=' is the DCV penalty to the dragon due to large size. I've been in more than one game where PCs stand back and pepper the dragon with head shots for maximum Hit Location damage, which the DCV penalty makes far easier than with human-sized opponents.[/quote']

 

So why not give the large creatures a bonus to their head armor from that thick skull they have? A creature with a skull that is at least a couple inches thick should be more resistant to damage to the head.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Dragons

 

Or give them +DCV, only for thier head. I mean, they have that amazingly prehensile neck, they should be pretty good at keeping their noggin out of harms way.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Dragons

 

I do take such tactics when running dragons or similar huge creatures myself; my example was from games I played in. But IMHO books like the Bestiary should have guidelines or options for such situations so new HERO GMs are prepared to deal with the situation "out of the box."

[Daltwisney]

Re: Dragons

 

I use the -DCV size modifier for any attack that simply attempts to hit the creature (whether for general damage or a hit location roll), but not for called shots. It doesn't seem to cause issues, and it avoids the whole meta-gamey 'stand-back and headshot' approach.

 

Even then, any Dragon worth slaying isn't going to stay at that range anyways, so that first volley better count.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Dragons

 

The dumbest dragon should still be as smart as a chimp or dolphin(or, more appropriately, a really cunning apex predator), so I'd figure the response to being shot at would probably involve either moving further away or simply swooping over to get rid of the pest. The average dragon should be at least as smart as a literate human adult, so I'd figure they'd work out how to deal with things like that. A lot of AD&D style dragons seem to work out deals with local tribes of orcs or hobgoblins or kobolds or lizardmen, to give them a little bit of a scouting report on any intruders into their realm (and maybe even an assist in case of a lair raid).

[AlHazred]

Re: Dragons

 

I like the decoupling of DEX and DCV in 6E, in that it's allowed me to make my dragons defensible without them needing to be Olympic-level gymnasts, and without buying tons of CSLs just to counteract Size penalties. I like the image of the Chinese dragons, which are so sinuous and serpentine they look like they could tie and untie their bodies into knots at will.

I have only used a Dragon once in all of my campaigns. It was in Rolemaster and it was a TPK. In my Kamarathin setting they don't exist outside of legend and myth. In my Rolemaster games they do exist' date=' but most right-minded PC's leave them alone.[/quote']Especially if you use RM Companion 1 and make them Magedrakes with Arcane Magic lists.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Dragons

 

It would probably be appropriate here to mention Hero Games's 5E sourcebook, The Book Of Dragons (available now) , jam-packed with stats for just about any dragon variant you could imagine.

[Old Man]

Re: Dragons

 

Oo! Oo! Does it also have stuff besides stats, like combat vs. dragons, riding dragons, riding dragons in combat, stuff like that?

[Markdoc]

Re: Dragons

 

So why not give the large creatures a bonus to their head armor from that thick skull they have? A creature with a skull that is at least a couple inches thick should be more resistant to damage to the head.

 

Or give them +DCV' date=' only for thier head. I mean, they have that amazingly prehensile neck, they should be pretty good at keeping their noggin out of harms way.[/quote']

 

I just give big creatures damage reduction to reflect the fact that getting an arrow in the face hurts a lot less when the arrow is (relatively) not much larger than a big needle, plus decent defence to represent thicker bones, massive muscles, etc.

 

cheers, Mark

[Escafarc]

Re: Dragons

 

The Dragons in my FH game are more like the ones in Michelle Sagara's Chronicles of Elantra series. Not to be screwed with.

[Daltwisney]

Re: Dragons

 

Smart PCs don't mess with Dragons.

Stupid PCs do mess with Dragons, once.

 

Mechanics aside, that sums things up nicely.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Dragons

 

I built a Dragon as I see them, actually based it off of the Black Dragon in Xak Tsaroth in the Dragonlance Chronicles books.

 

1100 points. 2d6 AoE Cone Penetrating, Continuous Acid Jet breath weapon (I think I even made it uncontrolled with a Delayed Phase Continuous Charge to represent the acid on you still burning even after the breath had stopped.) 75 Active Point Magic VPP. 12 Points of Resistant Armor with 4 points being limited coverage leaving chest and stomach with only 8. 6 Levels of Always On, Inherent Growth.

 

As to fighting a Dragon, I think any number of clever tactics could work, from giant catapult-bolas to ballistae to luring them into a canyon or cave and attacking from the sides or below, etc. But if you just run into their lair waving your sword over your head, you deserve the horrible, grizzly death you receive.