Dragons

[Old Man]

Re: Dragons

 

But if you just run into their lair waving your sword over your head' date=' you deserve the horrible, grisly death you receive.[/quote']

 

I observed a game once where the stupid player (not PC, player) literally tried that, and the GM went with it and let him surprise the dragon with the sheer craziness of it. "What on earth is this human... Ow! Hey!" Pretty sure the PC died anyway, though.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Dragons

 

I've always thought that dragons should be the ultimate challenge for the PC's. They should be tough to kill, strong as hell (double knockback naked advantage that can be applied to their physical attacks) and smarter than the entire party put together. I also consider dragons to be essentially the most magically active creatures in the campaign setting. My dragons tend to be very, very powerful magicians/sorcerors/necromancers/summoners (etc) and can bring to bear the same kind of magic the PC's can and a bunch they've never heard of, only at a much higher Active Point cost and a lesser penalty to the magic casting roll. Imagine if you will, a Dragon that casts Haste (+2 Speed!) Strength (4D6 Aid STR) and Armor (+10pd +10ed Force Field) spells on himself before the PC's even get to the center of it's lair. Then the dragon would sit back and summon Elementals to wear the PC's down, all the while casting spells at them to hamper them in their fight against the elementals. Then provided the PC's make it through the Elementals, the dragon would unleash its breath weapon. None of this 2D6K Area of Effect Cone stuff. My dragons rock bare minimum 4D6K for their breath weapon. (though a Cold/Ice dragon will probably do 2D6K continuous, penetrating coupled with a 6D6 Entangle) and if the PC's manage to survive that attack, the dragon will immediately follow up with a massive spell based on the opposite element of his breath (i.e. a Fire dragon will follow up with a huge Ice spell. An Ice dragon with a huge fireball or firestorm etc).

 

My dragons are also not oppposed to fleeing if the battle is going against him (no matter how unlikely a scenario this might seem to the dragon). The smart dragon has a nice Teleportation spell, keyed in to one of his other lair's on a trigger, so there should be no casting required. Hmm...these mortals are mighty. I must re-think my strategy and return to deal with them later... *BAMPH!*.

 

No no. There is no easy victory against dragons in my games. Attacking one and surviving will likely only gain you an incredibly powerful, patient and immortal enemy who is now obsessed with peeling the flesh from your bones. I usually warn players against thoughts of attacking dragons when i start a campaign....I find it saves them from having to write up a new PC later.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Dragons

 

Oo! Oo! Does it also have stuff besides stats' date=' like combat vs. dragons, riding dragons, riding dragons in combat, stuff like that?[/quote']

 

Well, the great majority of it is like an "enemies" book (in fact it even says so on the cover); but there are several pages of suggestions for "Fighting Giant Monsters" (including dealing with the Hit Location issues raised here), Package Deals for a "Dragonrider" and "Dragonslayer," a bunch of dragon-themed magic items, and several example personalities for sapient dragons. There are also character sheets for several non-draconic giant monsters, and a few encounter location maps and tables. But those elements are definitely in the minority compared to the dragon write-ups.

[dmjalund]

Re: Dragons

 

Pictures of St George killing a dragon, symbolizes Christianity's defeat of the saxon religion, so that making the dragon look puny is to show how impotent and unworthy the old religion was supposed to be.

[John Desmarais]

Re: Dragons

 

Pictures of St George killing a dragon' date=' symbolizes Christianity's defeat of the saxon religion, so that making the dragon look puny is to show how impotent and unworthy the old religion was supposed to be.[/quote']

 

Still makes George look like a bully.

[quozaxx]

Re: Dragons

 

What do you think about the idea that dragons are not evil and should not be killed. Like some of the Dragons in movies nowadays.

 

In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but dragons seem to be almost kind hearted (mostly, some exceptions) in modern movies.

[Old Man]

Re: Dragons

 

Yeah, going back to evil destructive greedy dragons seems kind of counterculture nowadays.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Dragons

 

I think it's much more interesting from a role-playing standpoint to have dragons with the same range of motivations as humans. It takes them out of the exclusive enemy role, adding more options to how they can be used, particularly with PCs not yet powerful enough to fight one. I also prefer to make players think about the potential down side of just charging in waving their bodkins the first time they see something big and scaly.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Dragons

 

Yeah' date=' going back to evil destructive greedy dragons seems kind of counterculture nowadays.[/quote']

 

IMHO it's still fun to have at least a few of those around.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Dragons

 

I think it's much more interesting from a role-playing standpoint to have dragons with the same range of motivations as humans. It takes them out of the exclusive enemy role' date=' adding more options to how they can be used, particularly with PCs not yet powerful enough to fight one. I also prefer to make players think about the potential down side of just charging in waving their bodkins the first time they see something big and scaly.[/quote']

 

 

That's my take also

[TSandman]

Re: Dragons

 

I think that I am pretty close in that regard. Though for me even Drakes are extremely rare...

 

Torwards the end of my D&D days, I remember doing a run where the group actually wanted to go into a Dragon's lair to kill the foul beast. I tried to tell that that was a bad idea with me running the session, with the intent on them going after a Dragon. They insisted that their PCs could handle it, and that I would run the session in a manner that they would enjoy the rewards more. Unfortunately none survived. A couple of the players loved the outcome, and refused to let the session be retconned into a dream. A few of the players were a little more than upset.

 

Besides when "testing" AD&D 2nd (eons ago), I've never done a session with Dragons...

 

why bother with Bite/Claws/Spells

 

Just pick-up the fighter wearing the +5 plate and bash the wizard with it... should cut through any DR he has ;p... Or play "Put-out-the-thief" or "Drop-the-cleric-on-the-bard-from-100'-high"

 

Ever seen a Halfing dodging a tree?

 

... Me neither.

[TSandman]

Re: Dragons

 

On a side note... Great book series with Dragons... "Temeraire" by Naomie Novik

[Tasha]

Re: Dragons

 

I just give big creatures damage reduction to reflect the fact that getting an arrow in the face hurts a lot less when the arrow is (relatively) not much larger than a big needle, plus decent defence to represent thicker bones, massive muscles, etc.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Or in 6e if the dragons is truly huge you could give it some levels of Damage Negation. 6 levels of Damage negation and most PCs won't do anything but minor damage to the beast. A couple of levels of DN would blunt most headshots.

 

Or you could just say that Dragon's are the kind of critters that take general damage (ie no head shots) with a x3 std stun multiple. You could do the Tolkien thing of having each dragon have a weak spot on it's underside that can only be hit with a -8 OCV shot that does a vitals shot with half of less of the dragon's normal armor.

[Lezentauw]

Re: Dragons

 

What do you think about the idea that dragons are not evil and should not be killed. Like some of the Dragons in movies nowadays.

 

In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but dragons seem to be almost kind hearted (mostly, some exceptions) in modern movies.

 

I stripped 'required' alignments a long time ago. That also removed the need for the metalic dragons as well. I found that a dragon's color only implied the environment where the dragon lived. A dragon's morality was another matter. I believe that the movie Dragonheart was responsible for this change for me...

[Markdoc]

Re: Dragons

 

Pictures of St George killing a dragon' date=' symbolizes Christianity's defeat of the saxon religion, so that making the dragon look puny is to show how impotent and unworthy the old religion was supposed to be.[/quote']

 

Kinda-sorta, but no, not really. St George - and his puny dragon - were popular in Anatolia long before the crusaders dragged his image back to Britain. And by the time they did, the "saxon religion" (which was errr ... christianity, actually) was old history. St George is still one of the most popular saints in Greece, Armenia and Anatolia, and it's a pretty safe bet the Armenians are not celebrating the triumph of Roman catholicism over Pelagianism.

 

It rates a kinda-sorta because it is generally believed that the dragon represents (depending on who you talk to) paganism, the devil, or generic evil and is depicted as small to emphasise the weakness of these things vs the power of god. But Saxons, it's got nothin' to do with.

 

cheers, Mark

 

The kinda-sorta

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Dragons

 

I've always had dragons vary in "Alignment", even in the early days of D&D, when the chromatic dragons were largely evil. Of course, there is also an agrument for the idea that dragons are beyond good and evil as we mortals see it. They tend to see life on an intellectual level far higher than mere mortals (and even the Elves and their ilk) which is tempered by a strong beastial instinct. I feel that they tend to follow the flow of natural selection...might is right, only the strong/clever survive...and live their lives accordingly. Of course their intellect also gives them the ability to conceive and appreciate morality and their inquisitive natures can cause them to get involved with such things as human politics etc, so this attitude tends to vary in intensity from individual to individual.

[Bismark]

Re: Dragons

 

Being used to Rolemaster dragons (which are terrifying) I tend to 'clone' their abilities in HERO. This can be a bit of a nasty shock for younger players - the older players (who have actually played Rolemaster) stay well clear of anything draconic unless they are in a position to talk to it - or they are terrifyingly powerful themselves.

 

A combo of decent defences (suitably Hardened or Impenetrable) plus a huge dollop of Damage Reduction usually suffices to stop the dreaded 'Headshot specials', and there are usually massive levels of defences against the element that dragon is associated with (e.g. I would give a firedrake a very high ED against heat/Fire only allied to humongous levels of Damage Negation against non-magical fire and + Damage Reduction against magical fire).

[Netzilla]

Re: Dragons

 

In the Fantasy Hero campaign that I occasionally work on but will probably never get to run, dragons are servants of the various Elemental Lords (the settings 2nd generation deities), which makes them the cosmological (and power level) equivalent of the angels and demons of the relatively younger good & evil deities. So, messing with them is a good way to attract divine wrath.

 

In my current urban fantasy monster hunting game, the team's dealt with two "dragons" so far. The first was a mutated 50-foot alligator. That one was a decent fight and it almost drowned the half-angel PC in the swamp before finally getting KOed. The second they just ran into was a real dragon that had crossed over from Faerie. They weren't able to really hurt it but they were able to drive it off in frustration.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Dragons

 

Being used to Rolemaster dragons (which are terrifying) I tend to 'clone' their abilities in HERO. This can be a bit of a nasty shock for younger players - the older players (who have actually played Rolemaster) stay well clear of anything draconic unless they are in a position to talk to it - or they are terrifyingly powerful themselves.

 

I like to base my dragons on Rolemaster dragons as well. Physically imposing with extremely deadly breath weapons and more magical ability than a whole school of mages. I especially like the fact that Rolemaster dragons can make use of Flight spells to augment their own natural flying abilities (adding the velocity of a Flight spell to their own natural speed) and in Shadow World can ride the Flows of Essaence to reach Mach level of flight speed.

 

A combo of decent defences (suitably Hardened or Impenetrable) plus a huge dollop of Damage Reduction usually suffices to stop the dreaded 'Headshot specials', and there are usually massive levels of defences against the element that dragon is associated with (e.g. I would give a firedrake a very high ED against heat/Fire only allied to humongous levels of Damage Negation against non-magical fire and + Damage Reduction against magical fire).

 

I use Damage Reduction to represent the Large Creature/Superlarge Creature resistance to damage seen in Rolemaster. (25% Damage reduction for a Large Creature. 50% Damage Reduction for Superlarge Creature. 75% Damage Reduction for a Dragons elemental resistance). My dragons posses at least 12pd/ed resitant Armor (hardened) with scads of normal PD/ED on top of this. And thats a youngish dragon. Someone like Sul'thon Niishang would probably have 20PD/20ED Armor, +30PD/+30ED defense and 50% Damage Reduction on top of that. (with an additional +10 ED Armor +20 normal ED and 75% Damage Reducion only vs fire) and thats not counting magical defenses.

[TSandman]

Re: Dragons

 

Just seen this NICE Dragon on the front page of Grognardia

 

[Old Man]

Re: Dragons

 

Squeee!

[megaplayboy]

Re: Dragons

 

This was always one of my favorite pics, because it looks like ol' Brimstone's been hitting the DragonFlex home gym pretty hard:

[teh bunneh]

Re: Dragons

 

A sea-dragon I painted up...

 

[DusterBoy]

Re: Dragons

 

Pictures of St George killing a dragon' date=' symbolizes Christianity's defeat of the saxon religion, so that making the dragon look puny is to show how impotent and unworthy the old religion was supposed to be.[/quote']

 

Save for the fact that many people still followed the old religion as far as using the old rituals, even when they had converted to Christianity. Old traditions are very hard to kill, despite the best efforts of the priests and monks. Iceland probably has the best record of its old pagan beliefs since it didn't convert to Christianity 'till 1100 and it was done as a democratic process, not something imposed on an unwilling populace by strangers.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Dragons

 

I've always had dragons vary in "Alignment"' date=' even in the early days of D&D, when the chromatic dragons were largely evil. Of course, there is also an agrument for the idea that dragons are beyond good and evil as we mortals see it. They tend to see life on an intellectual level far higher than mere mortals (and even the Elves and their ilk) which is tempered by a strong beastial instinct. I feel that they tend to follow the flow of natural selection...might is right, only the strong/clever survive...and live their lives accordingly. Of course their intellect also gives them the ability to conceive and appreciate morality and their inquisitive natures can cause them to get involved with such things as human politics etc, so this attitude tends to vary in intensity from individual to individual.[/quote']

 

In the D&D boxed set series (Basic, Expert, Companion, Master, and Immortal rules), the white hardback Rules Cyclopedia, and the "Mystara" world supplements for those rules, there are only three alignments: Lawful, Neutral, and Chaotic. Dragon species are divided among these three alignments. Each alignment has a unique, immortal dragon as ruler of all such dragons, while a single three-headed dragon called the Great One is lord of all dragons.

 

I conceived of dragons as being the embodiment of alignment, influencing all creatures around them toward more lawful, chaotic, or neutral behavior simply in reaction to the dragons' actions. The lesser immortal dragons could challenge the Great One for dominance and replace him if they succeeded; the alignment of the new Great One, translated through its edicts to all dragons, would impact the universal balance of the alignments. Thus would eras of history end, and new eras come to be.