Mind control question

[phoenix240]

How specific do the commands issues by Mind Control have to be?

 

 

For example, if I want to send someone out of the room can I issue a command like. "You're really hungry want a snack, Go get one."

 

 

Or do I have to break it down further into:

 

 

"You're feeling really hungry." (would that even be Mind Control?)

 

 

"You want to go get a snack. Go."

 

 

?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Mind control question

 

I'd say it's as specific as you want it to be, but more general wordings allow for more leniency in how the target interprets the instruction. "Go get a snack," might normally be fine, but be careful if one of your teammates might look like a delicious little delicacy. "Go to the kitchen and get something to eat out of the fridge," would leave a lot less room for interpretation. I'd view, "You are feeling really hungry," as Mental Illusions rather than Mind Control; you're changing what someone perceives rather than what they do, and how they go about acting on that perception is going to be more up to them than you.

 

EDIT: Oh, and brace yourself for 20 different answers. This IS a subjective problem, and you'll find there are many different opinions here on the boards. Hopefully in this answer and the flood that follows you'll find some good seeds you can grow.

[whitekeys]

Re: Mind control question

 

I'm not to experience with Heroes, but I'd interpret Mind Control as actions only. As if you were "in" his/her mind, "controlling" them. But I haven't rad the entry. lol.

[dmjalund]

Re: Mind control question

 

Mind Control gives orders, not motivations

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Mind control question

 

Mind control is also used for controlling emotions. Hunger is more of a physical sensation, but need could be an emotion.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Mind control question

 

Mind control is also used for controlling emotions. Hunger is more of a physical sensation' date=' but need could be an emotion.[/quote']

Huh. Good point. How would you make someone's body actually physically crave food, as opposed to making them think they are hungry when they are not, or making them eat when they aren't hungry at all? And the big question: does it matter? I suppose I'd allow either Mind Control or Mental Illusions to work if done cleverly; sometimes I might want a little clarification from the player.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Mind control question

 

Mental Illusions would make them feel hungry, but leave it up to them what to do about it. Mind Control would make them leave the room, and maybe even go to the larder and grab a sandwich and eat it, but probably not so much with the hunger. Less actual hunger would mean higher levels of Mind Control, but I can't see it requiring too high barring unusual circumstances.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Mind control question

 

Making someone genuinely hungry might be a Cosmetic-level Mental Transform, or Minor if they also feel compelled to do something about it.

[Utech]

Re: Mind control question

 

You could get real picky about sfx if you like, but basically I'd say that if you can control someone's mind, you can make them feel anything you like. You could make them feel as though they are hungry, have to use the bathroom, are having a horrible leg cramp, find someone (or even something) sexually attractive, are terribly sleepy etc. Some of these might take high die rolls or be easily broken out of (or both). Some might be better simulated with other Powers -- and give you more bang for your buck. But Mind Control is very open as written.

 

As to the OP, I'd say that counts as one command.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Mind control question

 

You could get real picky about sfx if you like' date=' but basically I'd say that if you can control someone's mind, you can make them feel anything you like. You could make them feel as though they are hungry, have to use the bathroom, are having a horrible leg cramp, find someone (or even something) sexually attractive, are terribly sleepy etc. Some of these might take high die rolls or be easily broken out of (or both). Some might be better simulated with other Powers -- and give you more bang for your buck. But Mind Control is very open as written.[/quote']

 

That's great SFX for buying Mental Illusions linked to or usable with Mind Control -- but you don't get them for free with Mind Control.

[Utech]

Re: Mind control question

 

That's great SFX for buying Mental Illusions linked to or usable with Mind Control -- but you don't get them for free with Mind Control.

Why in the world not?

 

If you've taken control of another character's mind via psionics, brainwashing, or hypnosis, you most certainly could make them feel all the things I listed.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Mind control question

 

Why in the world not?

 

If you've taken control of another character's mind via psionics, brainwashing, or hypnosis, you most certainly could make them feel all the things I listed.

How's this? Mind Control costs 5 points per die. Mental Illusions costs 5 points per die. If with Mind Control you can truly make someone feel or believe anything you wanted, why would you ever purchase Mental Illusions? If you truly want psionics, brainwashing, or hypnosis that can accomplish all of that, you'd better be willing to build it using a combination of both Powers, because most sane GMs are not going to allow you to accomplish everything both Powers can do with just one of them.

[OddHat]

Re: Mind control question

 

There is some crossover between Mind Control and Mental Illusions, as with many other powers. I have no problem with Mind Control used to say "You think [Object] is beautiful" without actually changing the way the object looks; Mental Illusions would be used to actually change the object's appearance. Going the other way, a Mental Illusion can trick a target into attacking an ally by changing the way that ally looks, or even (with a good enough roll) convince the victim he's being held by someone who is forcing him to take some physical action (step through a doorway, stay still, whatever); Mind Control would do roughly the same things, using different means.

 

This is even built into the Mind Control Effect Table: Mind Control +20 achieves "Target will believe any statement that doesn't contradict strongly held beliefs", and +30 achieves "Target will believe statements that directly contradict reality under direct observation". 6thEd, p.253

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Mind control question

 

I believe Emotion Control is written up as Mind Control, not Mental Illusion, in the Super Power Database (granted with certain Modifiers). Looking at it from a purely physical perspective is there that much difference between the chemical reactions and nerve responses in the brain that induce certain emotional states and the body's way of telling you you’re hungry? I personally think that “hunger” would fall more in the Mind Control category where as I use Mental Illusion for simulating more external sensory input.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Mind control question

 

I think the point is that with high enough effect rolls, both Powers can be used to get similar end results. The issue is when the effect rolls are not at the top end. Seeing through a Mental Illusion can be far different than breaking through a Mind Control. If Mental Powers are common enough in a campaign there might even be characters with Limited Mental Defense that only works against one of the two (Mental Illusions or Mind Control) but not both.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Mind control question

 

Why in the world not?

 

If you've taken control of another character's mind via psionics, brainwashing, or hypnosis, you most certainly could make them feel all the things I listed.

 

Which is a perfect rationale for buying Mental Illusions to make all of those things happen.

 

With Mind Control, you could give commands like "go into the bathroom and pee", "eat some food", "twitch your right leg", "go try to have sex with that person over there", "go to sleep", etc. You could even give a command something like "If someone asks you why you are doing this, rationalize it to the extent you can." But making them feel a full bladder, hunger, pain, horny, sleepy, etc., is Mental Illusions. The latter are physical sensations, not emotions.

 

Mind Control is a Power, a mechanic. "Someone who can take over another's mind via psionics, brainwashing, hypnosis, etc." is special effects that would be handled by multiple Powers, among them Mind Control and Mental Illusions. The rulebook is explicit that Mind Control covers actions and Mental Illusions covers sensory changes.

 

I'd also say that with Mental Illusions you can make someone feel hungry, but leave what to do about it up to them. With both, you could both make them feel hungry and command them to eat.

[OddHat]

Re: Mind control question

 

Which is a perfect rationale for buying Mental Illusions to make all of those things happen.

 

With Mind Control, you could give commands like "go into the bathroom and pee", "eat some food", "twitch your right leg", "go try to have sex with that person over there", "go to sleep", etc. But making them feel a full bladder, hunger, pain, horny, sleepy, etc., is Mental Illusions. The latter are physical sensations, not emotions.

 

Mind Control is a Power, a mechanic. "Someone who can take over another's mind via psionics, brainwashing, hypnosis, etc." is special effects that would be handled by multiple Powers, among them Mind Control and Mental Illusions. The rulebook is explicit that Mind Control covers actions and Mental Illusions covers sensory changes.

 

There's room for creative interpretation by the GM. "Target will believe statements that directly contradict reality under direct observation" (6thEd, p.253) is right there in the rule book. Some things will fit better as Mind Control, some as Mental Illusions, but a given GM has space to make that call without going outside of the rules as written.

[ShadowEater]

Re: Mind control question

 

Given the way the human mind works, however, I think that *some* degree of rationalization is likely with mind control... they may not actually feel hungry, but after mysteriously getting up and going to the fridge for a snack I'll bet they would say they were. Some degree of this rationalization is, to me, a function of the '+20 EGO makes it undetected by target' effect.

[OddHat]

Re: Mind control question

 

There's a tendency, especially in board discussions but also sometimes in games, to get to lawyerly in interpretting what Mind Control and Mental Illusions can and can't do. More so I think than with most other powers, and probably because there are few things Players hate more than looking foolish or losing control of their characters. "You feel hungry; go get something to eat" sounds like a perfectly appropriate use of Mind Control to me; it's primarily compelling the target to take an action, not primarily compelling him him to feel a sensation. "Feeling Hungry" is trivial, and works fine as a special effect.

 

Of course, I remember flame wars over whether having a Ninja pop up, hit someone and vanish was an appropriate special effect for an Energy Blast. These long arguments are part of Hero.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Mind control question

 

It's "you feel hungry for a cheeseburger"(Mind Control) vs. "you see, smell and taste a delicious cheeseburger, made just the way you like it"(Mental Illusions).

You can't make someone hallucinate using MC, but you can make someone believe that they saw you yesterday. But Mental Illusions at +30 is far more convincing than MC+30 trying to do the same thing, imo. Plus with MI you can use adders to have the illusions cause damage or possibly other game effects.

[Naanomi]

Re: Mind control question

 

It's "you feel hungry for a cheeseburger"(Mind Control) vs. "you see, smell and taste a delicious cheeseburger, made just the way you like it"(Mental Illusions).

 

Feeling hungry is a sensory thing, even if it isn't a defined sense group neh? I think the distinction is MC: "You want to eat a Cheeseburger" and MI: "You feel hungry"

 

Of course... one could use TK to literally force their body to eat a hamburger... or force it down their throat... or use APG possession and have them eat it while you are in control, or... lets see... Summon a flying hamburger that then grapples itself down their throat? A NND blast defined as choking on a summoned hamburger? Hrm... maybe teleport one into their mouth or stomach.

 

The ultimate solution would probably be a mental transformation to add the Psychological Limitation: Must always eat cheeseburgers (total)?

[OddHat]

Re: Mind control question

 

Allowing MI to make someone "feel hungry" is a GM's call. Feeling hot or cold, sure; feeling, touching or tasting a Cheeseburger, no problem. Mental Illusions has no level for inflicting physical needs like Hunger, Thirst, Lust, etc; if you're allowing it at all, it's under the umbrella of Sensory Changes or Illusion Causes Stun (the theory being that if you can cause Pain, you can cause Hunger). Note that I'm not saying that as a GM you can't say "Hot, cold, pain, hunger, whatever"; I'm just pointing out that it makes no more sense to say you can make someone hungry with Mental Illusions than with Mind Control. To me it makes less, as MI is a mechanic all about creating an image or sensation that seems to be external and Mind Control is a mechanic about actually causing someone to do something.

[Naanomi]

Re: Mind control question

 

I'm not saying that you inflict the *need* for food, just the feelings that go along with it. We know we are hungry because of a chemical sense... it manifests as an empty feeling, and some people who have it go wrong feel starving all the time regardless of their physical needs. It is a sensory issue, like is common with people with prader willi syndrome.

 

I guess the question is how much you allow MI to affect non-special senses. The defined 'sense groups' are the classic senses, but the body has so many more chemical and internal senses that we don't think about as much... hunger, sleepyness, fatigue, organ stretch reception (bloatedness)... or the sort of 'secondary' sensory aspects of our normal sensory information... dizziness/balance, proprioception, hot/cold sense, and the like. In my mind, all of it clearly falls under MI, even if your response to feeling the sensory input of a overfull bladder is usually pretty predictable in causing a certain behavior.

[OddHat]

Re: Mind control question

 

Again, I'm not saying that you as GM can't let MI give someone a sensation of being Hungry; I'd allow it. The Mechanic works fine. However, if you want someone to actually act on that feeling of hunger, the Mechanic that makes more sense is Mind Control. Sure, there is crossover, and both Mind Control and Mental Illusions can achieve some (not all) similar effects though at different levels on their respective charts. Still, if you want someone primarily to Act, Mind Control is the natural mechanical fit. Acting because you're hungry / tired / thirsty / whatever is just colorful phrasing.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mind control question

 

With Mind Control, you could give commands like "go into the bathroom and pee", "eat some food", "twitch your right leg", "go try to have sex with that person over there", "go to sleep", etc. You could even give a command something like "If someone asks you why you are doing this, rationalize it to the extent you can." But making them feel a full bladder, hunger, pain, horny, sleepy, etc., is Mental Illusions. The latter are physical sensations, not emotions.

 

Mind Control is a Power, a mechanic. "Someone who can take over another's mind via psionics, brainwashing, hypnosis, etc." is special effects that would be handled by multiple Powers, among them Mind Control and Mental Illusions. The rulebook is explicit that Mind Control covers actions and Mental Illusions covers sensory changes.

 

I'd also say that with Mental Illusions you can make someone feel hungry, but leave what to do about it up to them. With both, you could both make them feel hungry and command them to eat.

 

Given the way the human mind works' date=' however, I think that *some* degree of rationalization is likely with mind control... they may not actually feel hungry, but after mysteriously getting up and going to the fridge for a snack I'll bet they would say they were. Some degree of this rationalization is, to me, a function of the '+20 EGO makes it undetected by target' effect.[/quote']

 

I agree with ShadowEater. "Target remembers the activity and thinks it was his own idea" seems to indicate that it is possible for the target to believe he was hungry, horny or tired. Having him remember "well, I wasn't hungry, but I decided to eat a cheeseburger, then I decided to have sex with a person I found completely and utterly repulsive and after that I forced myself to pee despite having no physical need to do so" seems inconsistent with the spirit of remembering the activity and thinking it was his own idea.

 

A lot like rules lawyers who, when Mind Controlled to "attack your teammate" asserts he may attack with only 1d6 of his 15d6 Blast because the Command was not specific as to the level of power to be used, or that his 5 STR Mentalist commanded to "close and attack that target" will run at his 3" velocity (as he is lame) to Punch his teammate, rather than close with his 40" of Flight and use his array of mental powers, for the move through for the same reasons. Which leads, inevitably, to the same type of extensive legalistic wording applied to Wishes in many D&D games, replacing the excitement, cinematics and heroism of the game with the thrills of contract law debates.