How to balance equipment users vs. spell casters

[Mickael]

Hi!

 

I don't have the Fantasy Hero genre book, and maybe it's discussed in it.

 

I was wondering how to balance characters in an heroic level game, where spell casters rely mostly on their Powers, and warrior-type characters use armors, swords, etc. that don't cost character points.

 

Are spell casters given extra points to compensate?

[yukonhorror]

Re: How to balance equipment users vs. spell casters

 

It gets mentioned in 6e2, but I'd also like advice on this. Seems as though my warriors are exceptionally more powerful than my spellcasters.

[mayapuppies]

Re: How to balance equipment users vs. spell casters

 

There are as many answers to this question as there are people on this board, it seems. Overall there isn't a single (or even a few) consensus as to how to handle this. In my setting of Kamarathin, I don't do anything to address this for several reasons;

 

1. A fighters sword can be taken away, a wizards spell cannot

2. Wizards are just as capable as fighters to wear armor and carry sharp pieces of metal.

 

To "balance" #2 and to insure that not everyone is a spell casting, full plate, two-handed sword wielding behemoth, magic is very difficult to master and is not very subtle. Not to mention exceptionally rare and frightening to the general populace.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: How to balance equipment users vs. spell casters

 

Games where one person uses money to buy attacks, and one person uses character points are inherently problematic to balance. In fact my group is working on an urban fantasy game that tries to do just that.

 

Thoughts:

 

1) You buy magical spells with money

2) Some enemies can only be hurt with magic, all PCs need to have at least some magic (or have DR/DN vs. non-magical attacks).

3) Spellcasters get more character points

4) Everyone uses equipment to attack and defend, and magic is used for misc effects (extra senses, mental powers) that cannot be duplicated with equipment

 

We are currently working on adapting the resource point system from Dark Champions along with idea 2.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: How to balance equipment users vs. spell casters

 

This comes up a lot. Usually the opposite is the problem - keeping the wizard in check so the fighter feels useful.

 

It really is about more "role playing" stuff than it is powers and numbers. It is all about enforcing limitations. The wizard is versatile, but might do less damage than the swordsman. The swordsman would almost surely be bested by the wizard if not for the limitations on magic; and the swordsman should certainly kill the wizard if the wizard is somehow denied his magic. This is almost "as it should be," dramatically speaking, but is not exactly the best for gaming.

 

So you have to set some ground rules and do some thinking:

 

1. How common is magic?

2. How powerful is magic?

3. How difficult is it to perform magic?

 

Generally, your fighter type is going to spend points on: Weapon Familiarity, Combat Skill Levels, Martial Maneuvers, etc. This is all going to pump up how much damage that sword does; let's say on average, 3d6k, once everything is figured in.

 

So you want to have the wizard doing about the same damage - either through having at least a few 45 active point attack spells, or allowing them to use some version of "Deadly Strike" to add damage to spells, etc. You want them to have similar level of defense - maybe even higher, but with limitations - as the fighter type.

 

Basically, you want to try to make your casters and non-casters "different but equal." The fighter types should excel in most action scenarios, but be hindered by supernatural creatures or forces, etc. The wizard should do OK in general combat, but excel at the more abnormal encounters.

 

And really for "swords and sorcery" to work, you do have to frequently look beyond combat. And everything has to kind of come from some thought experiments on "how does magic work in my setting / campaign."

[Manic Typist]

Re: How to balance equipment users vs. spell casters

 

Or you could always give spellcasters access to powers and abilities that can't be gained via other routes, no matter how extraordinary the warrior. Accelerated healing, spells that affect the environment, light and darkness, movement powers, invisibility, etc. Then let the player use them in a more creative fashion than "I hit the creature with my sharp metal stick."

[Cancer]

Re: How to balance equipment users vs. spell casters

 

There are certainly flavors of fantasy worlds which by their intrinsic nature give rise to things that would be more or less impossible (or pointless) to game in the usual HERO hexmap sense.

 

When you have a world where magic is subtle, mysterious, and operates mostly on the subliminal levels, then you can't have a meaningful combat on a map. By the nature of that kind of magic, if the swordsman appears on the same map as the magician and the swordsman knows who the target is ... then the swordsman will win, every time, without fail. Because, for the magician to win, his entire goal is to make sure that same-map confrontation never happens.

 

If your fantasy world has "six-gun magic", that is, magical effects that are immediately deadly on a personal level and those effects can be generated more or less on a reflex timescale, then yeah, the same-map combats are meaningful to play. If not ... and this seemed to be case in all the Conan stories, that there never was a zap-mage who could dish out hurt at close range on the personal level with the same amount of prep time as the barbarian's sword swing ... then all you're doing is making a public spectacle of eviscerating magic-users.

[Ice9]

Re: How to balance equipment users vs. spell casters

 

It depends on how much you want to draw a hard line between spellcasters and warriors. Because there's no intrinsic line in the rules - a character with a lot of spells can still use weapons and armor, and a character with a lot of fighting skills can still pick up some magic. In that case, the only balance problem you have is "blasting spells vs enhancement spells" - with free equipment, "Eye of the Immortal Archer" is going to give you a lot more bang for your buck than "Scorching Ray". One option to fix this is to give some free DCs to direct damage spells. Possibly something like:

"Spells that do direct damage (no NND, no continual effect, etc) gain bonus DCs equal to Int/5, Ego/5, or Pre/5 (depending on what type of magic the character uses)."

 

Now OTOH, if you draw a sharp line between the types, then the issue is reversed - if anything, the warriors need help to keep up, because the casters have access to many powers that are otherwise unavailable. You still do have the "blasting vs indirect" issue - Entangle/Darkness/whatever usually beat out Blast/RKA. Depending on your setting, this may be desirable; if not, the fix above should help.

[dmjalund]

Re: How to balance equipment users vs. spell casters

 

one possible way is to allow Forcewall (barrier costing END) but not forcefield, so that the first attack against the mage in a phase may be stopped, but he is vulnerable to the second (unless he aborts to reactivate (I think thats an option) in which case it's the third attack per phase he will be vulnerabke to)

[Outsider]

Re: How to balance equipment users vs. spell casters

 

With a warrior, you know what you're up against. He is usually a big guy covered in armor weilding a killing attack. When a wizard starts casting, though, who knows what is coming. Warriors are basically one-trick ponies, and the value of not being such isn't really covered in any raw accounting of points.

 

 

 

If you do want to go the raw point accounting method anyway :

 

Warriors free gear gives him, at most, 47 freebie points. This is assuming he carries the gear with the highest point cost according to FH (5th ed).

 

9 points for Full Plate

9 points for Tower Sheild

18 points for Medium Spear

11 points for Very Heavy Longbow

 

Note however, that, if the gm allowed it, he could put his weapons into a weapon multipower and save about 9 points, meaning 38 points free.

 

Further note, that one should deduct the cost of the weapon familiarities he is effectively required to buy to use his weapons, meaning 2 more points off the 'freebie' total : 36 points free.

 

Also note that the 'free' equipment is often bought with advantages and limitations that almost no player would really take if he were building the equipment himself, as they do not enhance the effectiveness of the attack in proportion to how much they increase the cost of the gear. Often they actually decrease the effectiveness of the attack or power and increase its cost, in fact.

 

Examples :

 

Notorious among these (in my mind at least) is the '0 END cost/Strength Minimum' combo on melee weapons. The actual write up of a melee weapon (lets use a Battleaxe as an example) :

15 (45) Battleaxe : 2D6 HKA (P) : 0 END Cost (+1/2), OAF (-1), Real (-1/4), STR Min (-1/2), 1 1/2 Handed (-1/4)

Used one handed (since it is only 2 more STR to do so, and we want to have our off hand free for a +4 DCV shield) a Strength 20 warrior spends 4 END to do 2D6+1 Killing damage.

 

Alternatively, it could be written up as follows :

13 (30) Battleace : 2D6 HKA (P), OAF (-1), Real (-1/4)

 

Right off, it is 2 real points cheaper, and the Strength 20 warrior can do 3D6+1 Killing with it, albeit at a cost of 7 END. If he only wants to use the same 4 END as before, he still does 2D6+1. Cheaper and has more options on how much damage to do.

 

In the case of shields, they are bought as a multipower (one slot the DCV, the other a low value Hand Attack (bash)). The Bash is pretty useless, as it takes an OCV penalty equal to the shield's DCV bonus due to its unweildyness. I'd write up a tower shield like this instead :

 

7 (20) Tower Shield : +4 DCV, OAF (-1), Arc of coverage - front only (-1/2), Real (-1/4)

 

Not only is this 2 points cheaper, but it costs no END to weild. (not a big deal on phases you're attacking anyway, but nicew on phases where you are not (STR minimum requirements are concurrent.. using a 15 str min weapon and a 10 str min sheild takes the same END as using just the weapon))

 

 

Basically, the real point value of the free gear is probably more like 30 character points than the nominal 47.

 

 

So.. then one has to ask, what about wizards? Do you place any required limitations on their spells? Do you allow them to put their spells in a framework? How valuable is it that they have access to powers simply not available to the warriors, and that because of this they are inherently far less predictable opponents?

[ghost-angel]

Re: How to balance equipment users vs. spell casters

 

It's never been much of an issue in games I've been in.

 

Warriors tend to be good at hitting things and front lining.

Wizards tend to be versatile, backline and support.

 

And for the non-combat stuff - well, everyone is on pretty equal ground there.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: How to balance equipment users vs. spell casters

 

Resource Pools are the very best way to manage this in the HERO System imo.

 

This is urban fantasy, but it is a 6e example of REsource Pools being used to maintain parity:

 

Here There Be Monsters -- Starting

[Markdoc]

Re: How to balance equipment users vs. spell casters

 

I'd say resource pools are one way to handle it, but far from the very best: we've tried multiple variants on resource pools before dropping the idea - they ended up being generally despised by the three groups I played with due to their inflexibility. In other settings though, we accepted that inflexibility for the advantages they gave and that worked ... OK. I can't say it's ever worked well, but it was acceptable.

 

But really, how you answer this question (warrior vs wizard) comes down to what you want your game to look like: Conan, Elric, DragonLance or Slayers - there's a different answer for every setting.

 

cheers, Mark

[Balabanto]

Re: How to balance equipment users vs. spell casters

 

All this being said, the real key to controlling this is making wizards burn a lot of their points in spells so that warriors are more physically powerful. The warrior is faster, stronger, and more physically skilled. He does about as much damage as the wizard does to a single target, but the wizard can affect multiple targets. The wizard, who goes less often, is far more devastating when he does go. It might not be unreasonable to have wizards with SPD 2, and Fighter types at SPD 3-4.

[Markdoc]

Re: How to balance equipment users vs. spell casters

 

All this being said' date=' the real key to controlling this is making wizards burn a lot of their points in spells so that warriors are more physically powerful. The warrior is faster, stronger, and more physically skilled. He does about as much damage as the wizard does to a single target, but the wizard can affect multiple targets. The wizard, who goes less often, is far more devastating when he does go. It might not be unreasonable to have wizards with SPD 2, and Fighter types at SPD 3-4.[/quote']

 

It doesn't have to be like that (in fact, in none of the games I've played in or GM'ed have we enforced a rule that wizards have to be physically puny: and typically, they're not). They might be a bit weaker and slower than pure fighters, simply because they still have to buy spells, but even if not, you can balance them off simply by making changes so that magic is not "off the cuff" simple in combat. For example, in my current game, magic-use requires a skill roll, a full phase and concentration (1/2 DCV). That means a mage can still be useful in combat, but if a swordsman gets up close to a wizard, he's gonna cut him into giblets: to be really competitive, the mage either needs some prep. time ahead of combat, or needs a meat-shield to keep the bad guys off him.

 

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How to balance equipment users vs. spell casters

 

For example' date=' in my current game, magic-use requires a skill roll, a full phase and concentration (1/2 DCV). That means a mage can still be useful in combat, but if a swordsman gets up close to a wizard, he's gonna cut him into giblets: to be really competitive, the mage either needs some prep. time ahead of combat, or needs a meat-shield to keep the bad guys off him.[/quote']

 

I find a lot of the complaints seem to arise because one character is more effective solo than others. When the players think like a team, a lot of the "this character has advantages over that character" thinking goes away. Rather than seeing the warrior can hack the enemy up way faster than the wizard, or the wizard is way more versatile than the warrior, these groups look at the sum of the parts. Such as, the warrior holds off the powerful enemy so the wizard can safely cast his spell, which spell is a Flash on the enemy allowing the warrior to make a devastating called shot. An opponent neither of them could hope to defeat drops like a stone when they co-ordinate their strengths.

 

In an early 3e D&D game, our group adopted one simple tactic early on - "No one hits the sorcerer". If anyone looked cross-eyed at the sorcerer, the next action from everyone else on the field was "drop everything, such up an attack of opportunity if you have to, and take out the guy who might hurt our sorcerer". He was the soft target. But his spells would take down the opposition we were holding back. We needed him and he needed us. Similarly, the cleric who burned out half his spells augmenting everyone else, and the other half healing them up, was a backup warrior in combat, but it didn't make him less useful. By augmenting the right people, rather than himself, he made the whole group more effective.

 

The best games, and the best PC groups, aren't a bunch of soloists tossed together. They are a team that looks for synergies between their various abilities to maximize their effectiveness as a group.

[Escafarc]

Re: How to balance equipment users vs. spell casters

 

In my experience Resorce Points work great for this. I also have dropped the whole "Heroic" thing and used the "Super-heroic" rules for character creation.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: How to balance equipment users vs. spell casters

 

I find that if you give the "non-magic casting" types access to special powers of their own (Talents mostly) it tends to balance out the point expenditures.

 

Certainly mages are going to be very versatile (if built correctly) but Fighters and rogues can also be built to be very very good at what they do. They all have their place and its up to the players involved to explore their characters potential fully.

 

If the problem you are having is that Fighters and rogues can purchase equipment that can enhance their basic abilities, allow the Magic user that same option. Have some spell components that can give the Magus a boost to his Magic Skill Roll, or a bonus to his or her Multi Power Pool. Give the mage access to wands or staves that give bonuses to specific types of magic (limited by charges of course). If the mage doesn't have to pay points for these things (only money) then that will go a bit further in bridging the gap between the casting and non-casting classes.

 

In my own experience, it is the opposite that is the problem; Mages being more powerful and effective than non-mages. However once I explain to the fighter-types what exactly they can do to enhance their fighting ability, this problem doesn't usually last too long and the fighters become hyper competent at their role in the party.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How to balance equipment users vs. spell casters

 

Also - there's no reason spell casters won't have access to Equipment either.

 

A Warrior gets a Sword and pays to enhance its damage with Martial Arts, Talents, and Skills.

A Spell Caster gets a Sword (or Quarterstaff, or Mace) and pays to enhance its damage with Spells.

 

Generally balances out from there in my experience.

 

And if you do have the opposite problem - spell casters start to overshadow non-spellcasters, the NuSoard has good ideas: you can allow warrior types to buy "Fighter Tricks" like "Whirlwind Attacks" that damage everyone around them (AoE 2m Radius), or Quick Draw (Autofire 3 for Bows). stuff like that.

[Badger]

Re: How to balance equipment users vs. spell casters

 

Hi!

 

I don't have the Fantasy Hero genre book, and maybe it's discussed in it.

 

I was wondering how to balance characters in an heroic level game, where spell casters rely mostly on their Powers, and warrior-type characters use armors, swords, etc. that don't cost character points.

 

Are spell casters given extra points to compensate?

 

If you have such a problem turn equipment into powers with focus.