Mathew Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 What would be the best way to directly convert Martial Arts levels froma 1st edition character to a 4th edition version of that character? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaJoe3 Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 Re: Converting Martial Arts from 1st edition to 4th. I don't think you can do an exact conversion because the methods of buying MA changed so much between 3e and 4e. Just buy the maneuvers you think would be appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 Re: Converting Martial Arts from 1st edition to 4th. I don't think you can do an exact conversion because the methods of buying MA changed so much between 3e and 4e. Just buy the maneuvers you think would be appropriate. Well, in 1E through 3E all "Martial Arts" consisted of just five maneuvers: Punch (a Martial Strike in 4E+ mechanical terms), Kick (Offensive Strike), Dodge, Block, and Throw. That package was carried foward in the newer editions as "Generic Martial Arts" or "Classic Comic Book Martial Arts." The cost of the earlier Martial Arts was based on the cost of the character's Strength, multiplied to increase the damage done, rather than the current method of a fixed cost for each maneuver, plus extra for added Damage Classes. IMHO the simplest method would be to give all of those earlier MA characters the Generic "style," and buy additional Damage Classes to either match the damage capacity of the original write-up, or equal the points invested in their Martial Arts (whichever you prefer). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 Re: Converting Martial Arts from 1st edition to 4th. I agree with IndianaJoe3. In first all martial arts gave you was a str multiplier, so only martial arts that are striking in nature really benefited form this model. If you want a fairly strict interpretation though I'd recoomend just buy Hand attack. The problem is though that that method only benefits striking martial arts. Also for the life of me, I'm not sure when you got punch at *1 1/2 str and kick at *2 str for free, that might be a 3rd ed thing. If you look at Classic Enemies you'll see that they just gave just about everyone generic Martial Arts when they upgraded the older villians (1-3 ed.) Although I thought that that was annoying at the time, I think now that it's pretty good. Hope you found this useful. P.s. which characters are you looking at in particular, I'm curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Posted March 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 Re: Converting Martial Arts from 1st edition to 4th. So would it be appropriate to take 1st edition Martail Arts and convert it into a hand attack? It just seems to have increased the damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 Re: Converting Martial Arts from 1st edition to 4th. No. Follow Lord Liaden's advice. 20 points in Comic Book Martial Arts + extra Damage Classes if required. That's: Martial Strike, Offensive Strike, Martial Block, Martial Throw, Martial Dodge. Martial Strike = 1e Martial Punch. Offensive Strike = 1e Martial Kick. Martial Throw can't be modeled with Hand Attack, and you'd need to muck about with skill levels to model the other maneuvers. This is completely unnecessary, given that identical maneuvers already exist in both editions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 Re: Converting Martial Arts from 1st edition to 4th. So would it be appropriate to take 1st edition Martail Arts and convert it into a hand attack? It just seems to have increased the damage. 4e has "Classic Comic Book" (4e pg 32) that's supposed to be the direct conversion. Buy enough extra Damage Classes so the character does similar damage. Of course the better conversion would be to use the character's background to see what style of martial Arts they were supposed to have. Then using Ninja Hero (the Aaron Allston 4e version with the red cover) find that style buy enough maneuvers to make you happy and then enough Extra Damage so the Standard Martial Attack does the same damage that 1e/2e Martial Punch did. It's worth the extra thought to get a conversion right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 Re: Converting Martial Arts from 1st edition to 4th. p.s I think that in first ed. the cost was points = your str val to get a X 1 1/2 damage. Then you paid an addition +1/2 for an additional +1/2 str multplier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 Re: Converting Martial Arts from 1st edition to 4th. p.s I think that in first ed. the cost was points = your str val to get a X 1 1/2 damage. Then you paid an addition +1/2 for an additional +1/2 str multplier. That's x1 1/2 damage on Martial Punch. x2 damage on Martial Kick. So: Green Dragon had 15 STR. If he spends 15 points on Martial Arts, he gets a 4.5d6 Martial Punch and a 6d6 Martial Kick. For another 7 points he gets 6d6 and 7.5d6 respectively. (22 points of Martial Arts in total.) For another 8 points (30 points total), he gets 7.5d6 and 9d6. And so on... I've ignored the other maneuvers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted March 3, 2011 Report Share Posted March 3, 2011 Re: Converting Martial Arts from 1st edition to 4th. I would follow Tasha, except use the Ultimate Martial Artist instead of Ninja hero (UMA has more styles, and probably better balanced, in the places it differs). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted March 3, 2011 Report Share Posted March 3, 2011 Re: Converting Martial Arts from 1st edition to 4th. No. Follow Lord Liaden's advice. 20 points in Comic Book Martial Arts + extra Damage Classes if required. That's: Martial Strike, Offensive Strike, Martial Block, Martial Throw, Martial Dodge. Martial Strike = 1e Martial Punch. Offensive Strike = 1e Martial Kick. Martial Throw can't be modeled with Hand Attack, and you'd need to muck about with skill levels to model the other maneuvers. This is completely unnecessary, given that identical maneuvers already exist in both editions. I understood that in 1st, you didn't get throw manuever with martial arts, just extra damage. But of course, that could just be my misunderstanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Re: Converting Martial Arts from 1st edition to 4th. 4e has "Classic Comic Book" (4e pg 32) that's supposed to be the direct conversion. Buy enough extra Damage Classes so the character does similar damage. Of course the better conversion would be to use the character's background to see what style of martial Arts they were supposed to have. Then using Ninja Hero (the Aaron Allston 4e version with the red cover) find that style buy enough maneuvers to make you happy and then enough Extra Damage so the Standard Martial Attack does the same damage that 1e/2e Martial Punch did. It's worth the extra thought to get a conversion right. What are the conversions going to be used for? For simplicity sake, you can get alot of mileage out of just using classic comic book and change the special effects as needed. I you to get a chance to look at Ninja Hero 4th (the original) many of the martial arts use basically the same 5 manuevers. Also, if you don't like the mechanics of the mauever in a style you can change it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Re: Converting Martial Arts from 1st edition to 4th. I understood that in 1st' date=' you didn't get throw manuever with martial arts, just extra damage. But of course, that could just be my misunderstanding.[/quote']It also allowed the character access to a list of Martial Maneuvers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Re: Converting Martial Arts from 1st edition to 4th. It also allowed the character access to a list of Martial Maneuvers Thank you for the correction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Re: Converting Martial Arts from 1st edition to 4th. I understood that in 1st' date=' you didn't get throw manuever with martial arts, just extra damage. But of course, that could just be my misunderstanding.[/quote'] As I recall, this got the character access to Martial Punch (same modifiers as Martial Strike, but damage was STR x 1.5), Martial Kick (same modifiers as Offensive Strike, but damage was STR x 2), Martial Block, Martial Throw and Martial Dodge (all same as now). The cost was 1/2 the character's STR. For each additional 1/2 STR paid, the character added half his STR to the damage done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Posted March 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Re: Converting Martial Arts from 1st edition to 4th. I just wanted to straight conversion of the 1st edition characters to make them as close to the original as possible, without change, except for being 4th edition. That's why I didn't want to give them "Martial Arts" skills, as that changes the mechanics of what they can do. I wanted to just convert them to be the same exact thing in the newer edition rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Re: Converting Martial Arts from 1st edition to 4th. Then I reiterate the suggestion I posted earlier, and which others have elaborated on. That will translate the characters' Martial Arts capabilities as closely as the later editions of the rules allow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Re: Converting Martial Arts from 1st edition to 4th. I just wanted to straight conversion of the 1st edition characters to make them as close to the original as possible' date=' without change, except for being 4th edition. That's why I didn't want to give them "Martial Arts" skills, as that changes the mechanics of what they can do. I wanted to just convert them to be the same exact thing in the newer edition rules.[/quote'] If you don't use the 4e MA skills then you are depriving your converted characters of capabilities they had in 1st and 2nd edition. Buying Martial arts gave you the ability to add +x1/2 damage multiple of your Strength for every "Level" of Martial Arts purchased. They also allowed characters the use of the "more efficient Martial Attacks Table" (2e Champs Pg 13). These included: Martial Punch +0 OCV, +2 DCV, x1 1/2 (plus any multiples) Martial Kick -2 OCV, +1 DCV, x2 (plus any multiples) Martial Block +2 OCV +2 DCV Block. Abort Martial Dodge --- +5 DCV Dodge, Abort Martial Throw +(Vel/5) +1 1x + (Vel/5) , Abort (pg 54, Champs 2e) So Using the rules from 4e for Martial Arts will render the closest, if not identical conversion from the earlier edition you listed. Your choices are to use a power combination that doesn't come with the nice extra maneuvers or use what 4e gave you. BTW Champions 2e was the edition that came in the box and had the Grey cover. It is identical to 1e with the exception of many spelling errors fixed (ie Sleth becomes Stealth). Most people who have an old edition have the Boxed 2nd edition. The supplements were all created for 1e/2e. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 Re: Converting Martial Arts from 1st edition to 4th. Then when/where/what was 3rd edition? Lucius Alexander Did a palindromedary eat it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 Re: Converting Martial Arts from 1st edition to 4th. Then when/where/what was 3rd edition? Lucius Alexander Did a palindromedary eat it? 3rd edition was the powerblue perfect bound edition published in 1985. It integrated the Champions II and Champions III supplements from the earlier edition. It's noted for being the first edition to include non combat skills beyond Detective Work. There May have been a boxed edition as well, It's been too long and I don't remember. It's pretty close to 2nd edition rules and didn't really change our characters that much (EC's changed, but that fixed a min maxing bug). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 Re: Converting Martial Arts from 1st edition to 4th. 3rd edition was the powerblue perfect bound edition published in 1985. It integrated the Champions II and Champions III supplements from the earlier edition. It's noted for being the first edition to include non combat skills beyond Detective Work. There May have been a boxed edition as well' date=' It's been too long and I don't remember. It's pretty close to 2nd edition rules and didn't really change our characters that much (EC's changed, but that fixed a min maxing bug).[/quote'] Actually 3rd edition was pretty much the same as second edition, with the EC fix, some more tweaks to Growth and Shrinking, and better editing and typography. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 Re: Converting Martial Arts from 1st edition to 4th. Actually 3rd edition was pretty much the same as second edition' date=' with the EC fix, some more tweaks to Growth and Shrinking, and better editing and typography.[/quote'] That's pretty much how I remember it. I also remember a Boxed set that was released later in the print run. I have the perfect bound stand alone edition, but I remember seeing a friend's copy being in a box with extra stuff like the 4 corners that way too many games came to be played on, and a Dr Destroyer adventure? The better Typography was huge in that edition, it was the first edition that didn't look like it was set using someone's Typewriter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 Re: Converting Martial Arts from 1st edition to 4th. I'm also curious, since you want to do a straight conversion, are you going to give martial arts to everyone who used to have it? Example is Blowtorch. He has martial arts, and for the life of me couldn't figure out why. Also if you really want martial arts by not using martial arts skills, the is a hentlemen on the board who has a system of buying manuevers in a multipower. Unfortunately his name I can't remember. (Perhaps some nice on the board could jog the memory) But warning though, technically it illegal in fourth edition and since it involves alot buying combat skill levels, it didn't seem that much easier than just buying martial arts skills, at least to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 Re: Converting Martial Arts from 1st edition to 4th. If you don't use the 4e MA skills then you are depriving your converted characters of capabilities they had in 1st and 2nd edition. Buying Martial arts gave you the ability to add +x1/2 damage multiple of your Strength for every "Level" of Martial Arts purchased. They also allowed characters the use of the "more efficient Martial Attacks Table" (2e Champs Pg 13). These included: Martial Punch +0 OCV, +2 DCV, x1 1/2 (plus any multiples) Martial Kick -2 OCV, +1 DCV, x2 (plus any multiples) Martial Block +2 OCV +2 DCV Block. Abort Martial Dodge --- +5 DCV Dodge, Abort Martial Throw +(Vel/5) +1 1x + (Vel/5) , Abort (pg 54, Champs 2e) So Using the rules from 4e for Martial Arts will render the closest, if not identical conversion from the earlier edition you listed. Your choices are to use a power combination that doesn't come with the nice extra maneuvers or use what 4e gave you. BTW Champions 2e was the edition that came in the box and had the Grey cover. It is identical to 1e with the exception of many spelling errors fixed (ie Sleth becomes Stealth). Most people who have an old edition have the Boxed 2nd edition. The supplements were all created for 1e/2e. This is nice to know. I have a bunch of older supplements, and while you can still do a fair conversion or even change, its nice to know what some of the original powers and abilities gave you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 Re: Converting Martial Arts from 1st edition to 4th. Actually 3rd edition was pretty much the same as second edition' date=' with the EC fix, some more tweaks to Growth and Shrinking, and better editing and typography.[/quote'] The Growth and Shrinking rules, as I recall, were largely reversed in 4th. IIRC, rather than modifying DCV, both abilities modified range modifiers instead, so there was no change to the likelihood of a hit if the characters were in hand to hand combat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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