Free no character point equipment simulating not very powerful powers

[Martin2]

I have just completed this week’s game and the teleporter in the party (the one I have mentioned before) who is filthy rich (500,000 a year perk) has said that he want to build an equipment pool at one of his teleport focus points with lots of easy to buy stuff like torches (night vision cone area effect), re-breathers (environmental survival etc), ropes, survival equipment, (if we were in the USA he would have probably given a whole list of easily obtained guns), etc, etc, and have it ready so he can teleport in and grab it and then teleport out (he also does not want to supply a list).

 

Obviously all these bits of equipment are useful, will simulate powers and if bought for a single character would cost lots of character points.

 

Having explained again and again that anything that simulates a power has to be balanced and costed and paid in character points. He does not think so as everyone can buy torches and use them etc so why not having a store of such equipment as he can go and get them.

 

Can anyone assist with this frustrating example!

 

How do I explain that logically, yes you can do this in the real world when you have lots of money and easy access to it. But cannot do this in a Champions world? We are mid game so cannot work it into his character that easy.

 

Every character could have a free torch. A free no frills mobile (cell phone). But what else is given for free? These are experienced role players from other systems where yes you have equipment lists as long as your arm so why not?

 

Obviously this could be covered by a gadget pool. I do not have access to any gadget books so would have make things up especially as he may not give me a list to work on.

 

I am having problems explaining money and character points.

 

If anyone has previous experience it would be greatly appreciated.

[Asperion]

Re: Free no character point equipment simulating not very powerful powers

 

The way that I would handle this situation is to require him to purchase a summon that will allow him to gain ONE simple, non-combat item. However the item must be in teleport range and take a minimum of one full turn (he teleports there, hunts through and gets item, then teleports back). The value of the item cannot exceed the value of the summon power and cannot be a weapon (this includes different blades - swords, saws, knives, etc).

[Enforcer84]

Re: Free no character point equipment simulating not very powerful powers

 

Whats the point of having money if you can't buy a torch?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Free no character point equipment simulating not very powerful powers

 

Go through the Wal-Mart/Sears/household goods/local army-navy surplus shop. Anything you can find there could reasonably be considered "not very powerful". That could potentially extend to things like large caliber handguns/hunting rifles, decent body armor, and the like, but -- and note this part carefully -- that is all at GM's option.

 

Go through the Champions/Universe/Villains/etc. books. Alternately the OHOTMU/Whos Who DC. Any items that a character carries that are a part of his "schtick" and couldn't conceivably be found at the Wal-Mart/etc. probably cost points.

 

A side note about the GM's option issue. Make sure he understands that anything this character could provide automatically comes with the Real Equipment Limitation, and that means it could easily fail at any time. Especially when superhuman level energies are being thrown about ("Sorry, but Electromagnetor's blasts are causing all kinds of havoc in your radio headsets. Oh, and anything that works on mundane batteries -- AA cells and the like -- is now drained. So sorry.") Essentially, that Real Equipment Limitation means this: the GM giveth, and the GM taketh away.

 

So, here are some of the sorts of things that could fall under that:

 

* Anything that would normally have the Real Weapon or Real Armor Limitations. Ordinary handguns, ordinary body armor, museum piece plate mail, and so forth.

 

* Cell phones, radio headsets, ordinary first aid kits, ordinary lockpicks.

 

* Anything you might find in the trunk (boot) of a car. Jumper cables, a jack (not sure what it's called your side of the pond -- that thing that you pull out when you have a flat, to lift and prop the car up so that you can change it), emergency roadside repair tools. Emergency pants. (What? You don't keep emergency pants in yours?) Etc.

 

* Stuff you might find in a typical household, garage, kitchen, garden shed, etc. Mundane batteries. Various household chemicals. Cooking utensils. Clothes. Books. Foodstuffs. Automotive and outdoors tools -- screwdrivers, wrenches, motor oil, lawn mowers, weed whackers, saws, pesticides, herbicides, dispensers thereof, etc.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Free no character point equipment simulating not very powerful powers

 

It could also reasonably be pointed out that a character who just has a few of those items on hand, or can be assumed to, would have a limited supply and selection of them. The ability to have a large number of them at an instant's notice could very well be considered a power that can cost points. Mechanicswise, it could and probably should be built as a Variable Power Pool (Gadgets), with a low Active Point and high Real Point total, and Limitations to the effect that they all have to have the Real Equipment Limitation, and are drawn from a limited set ("ordinary", "real world" gadgets and gizmos).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Free no character point equipment simulating not very powerful powers

 

I think this is another example of confusion by a player over the concept of teleportation the special effect and Teleportation the HERO Power.

 

The latter is just one of several mechanics used to model the former.

[Ice9]

Re: Free no character point equipment simulating not very powerful powers

 

The one thing about building all gadgets as powers is that the Wealth perk does cost actual points. And the fact that this character can teleport around retrieving stuff quickly also cost points. So "pay the full point cost for any and all items" doesn't seem quite right.

 

A quick back of the napkin calculation:

Wealth ($0.5M) = 10 RP

VPP (6 RP, 12 AP), Half-Phase to Change (+1/2), Must Resupply (-1/4), all Slots Focus (-1/2), Real ___ (-1/4), Variable Limitations (-1/2 worth; -1/4) = 10 RP

 

So gadgets in the 10-15 point range seem entirely reasonable.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Free no character point equipment simulating not very powerful powers

 

It could also reasonably be pointed out that a character who just has a few of those items on hand' date=' or can be assumed to, would have a limited supply and selection of them. The ability to have a large number of them at an instant's notice could very well be considered a power that can cost points. Mechanicswise, it could and probably should be built as a Variable Power Pool (Gadgets), with a low Active Point and high Real Point total, and Limitations to the effect that they all have to have the Real Equipment Limitation, and are drawn from a limited set ("ordinary", "real world" gadgets and gizmos).[/quote']

 

I agree with this.

 

As a side note ... torches as AE Cone Nightvision??!?!

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Free no character point equipment simulating not very powerful powers

 

The one thing about building all gadgets as powers is that the Wealth perk does cost actual points. And the fact that this character can teleport around retrieving stuff quickly also cost points. So "pay the full point cost for any and all items" doesn't seem quite right.

 

I see where you're coming from. And in that case, I'd make him write down what all he has, and make him actually teleport back to wherever and get the thing, then teleport back to the combat. Let's see. Oh yeah, set your floating location. That's a full Turn. Okay, that's done, now teleport back. Okay, you hit your teleport landing zone. How far is it from there to Big Room Full O' Gadgets? Oh, you have an LZ there. That's fine. You're looking for the scuba gear and the maxi-Maglite. How good is your gadget filing system? How long does it take you to grab them both? Not specified? Hmmm. Let me just bring those Real Equipment Limitations into play, and... let me see. I won't go nuts here; just one Phase to grab one, then one Phase to grab the other... wait a second, how many gadgets did you say you have? How big is that warehouse? Yeah, let's track your movement inside there....

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Free no character point equipment simulating not very powerful powers

 

I see where you're coming from. And in that case' date=' I'd make him write down what all he has, and make him actually teleport back to wherever and get the thing, then teleport back to the combat. Let's see. Oh yeah, set your floating location. That's a full Turn. Okay, that's done, now teleport back. Okay, you hit your teleport landing zone. How far is it from there to Big Room Full O' Gadgets? Oh, you have an LZ there. That's fine. You're looking for the scuba gear and the maxi-Maglite. How good is your gadget filing system? How long does it take you to grab them both? Not specified? Hmmm. Let me just bring those Real Equipment Limitations into play, and... let me see. I won't go nuts here; just one Phase to grab one, then one Phase to grab the other... wait a second, how many gadgets did you say you have? [i']How big[/i] is that warehouse? Yeah, let's track your movement inside there....

 

I actually designed a character like sort of like this on purpose once. He had a VPP for minor magic items, but it was based on a curio shop so cluttered with random junk that it required a perception roll to change slots. Lots of extra time spent to increase the perception roll while muttering I know that cursed thing is here somewhere....

 

...but I get the feeling that's NOT what your player is going for, here!

[Nothere]

Re: Free no character point equipment simulating not very powerful powers

 

To get back to the explaining it to the player part, you need to point out that any power he's going to use consistantly needs to be paid for. So if I don't buy radio hearing no radio works for me? No. All radios work, you just don't always have a radio with you. Or for the torch example. You pay the points you have a room ull of powerful torches you can pop too. You don't. You pop into the store up the street whip out your credit card, buy one and some batteries, and your good to go. Untill the next time you need a torch when the old ones batteries have run out, and you have to go buy more. Or what caused trouble for me. The full loaded gun. You pay the points you have a gun. You don't sure you can take it off some goon and fire a couple of shots, but you can't keep it.

[phookz]

Re: Free no character point equipment simulating not very powerful powers

 

I'd explain it as a game balance thing.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Free no character point equipment simulating not very powerful powers

 

I think Chris Goodwin's first post, and Ice9's post, covered my view on the matter pretty well.

 

You mention Filthy Rich, which would be 15 points, but then you said 500,000 / year, which is only 5 points. There's a pretty big difference there.

 

In general, for out-of-combat acquisition of real-world, easily-obtained items, I'd allow him to pop out, grab (from the warehouse) or purchase the item(s) desired, without requiring point costs. After all, he *did* pay points for Wealth, so it should come in handy (at a level similar to the points paid for the Perk). That's assuming he'll have a fixed location at the storage point and a floating location available for the return trip. And as Chris pointed out, those items will be Real Equipment with the associated potential difficulties.

 

For game balance, I'm not as keen on him supplying all of his teammates with similar equipment, except for mundane stuff like torches, standard tools, and the like.

 

If he wants to use this in-combat and has a very large supply of stuff to draw from, Chris' and Xavier's posts about searching for the items desired would apply.

 

Of note (because I'm an evil GM), the storage location could eventually become a potential plot point if he's constantly going to and from that fixed location. A gadgeteer villain who's able to track the hero's teleportation might triangulate to find the fixed location and later on arrange a little "surprise" or two for the hero there. Or a shrinker might tag along on a trip. This would be less likely to occur if his going there is an infrequent thing, but more likely if he's seen doing this on a regular basis.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Free no character point equipment simulating not very powerful powers

 

Since he paid for the Wealth perk, I wouldn't have a problem with him using his teleport to grab stored equipment. But you need to define what constitutes "mundane equipment" and when it crosses the line to "combat affecting power".

 

A torch or lantern? No problem. A pair of handcuffs? Maybe. Bullet-proof vests and sniper rifles? Don't think so.

 

I would suggest you have him write down a list of all the equipment he wants to stash, and then decide what is reasonable and what isn't (this also prevent any arguments mid-game over what he may or may not have in his store room). If he wants the high end-stuff, he is going to have to build a Multipower or VPP for equipment that he has at his beck and call. Until he has the points for that, he is going to be limited to more prosaic equipment.

[Martin2]

Re: Free no character point equipment simulating not very powerful powers

 

Thanks for the feed back.

 

looking at it he has spent 5 points on the money and various points on the teleport so as people have said he has invested some points already.

 

 

I just did not want to give him stuff for "free". I think I will use a combination of a VPP with a long time frame to find things and get back.

 

I think I will now throw it back at him and say what does he want on his list and take it from there.

[pinecone]

Re: Free no character point equipment simulating not very powerful powers

 

I have just completed this week’s game and the teleporter in the party (the one I have mentioned before) who is filthy rich (500' date='000 a year perk) has said that he want to build an equipment pool at one of his teleport focus points with lots of easy to buy stuff like torches (night vision cone area effect), re-breathers (environmental survival etc), ropes, survival equipment, (if we were in the USA he would have probably given a whole list of easily obtained guns), etc, etc, and have it ready so he can teleport in and grab it and then teleport out (he also does not want to supply a list).[/font']

 

Obviously all these bits of equipment are useful, will simulate powers and if bought for a single character would cost lots of character points.

 

Having explained again and again that anything that simulates a power has to be balanced and costed and paid in character points. He does not think so as everyone can buy torches and use them etc so why not having a store of such equipment as he can go and get them.

 

Can anyone assist with this frustrating example!

 

How do I explain that logically, yes you can do this in the real world when you have lots of money and easy access to it. But cannot do this in a Champions world? We are mid game so cannot work it into his character that easy.

 

Every character could have a free torch. A free no frills mobile (cell phone). But what else is given for free? These are experienced role players from other systems where yes you have equipment lists as long as your arm so why not?

 

Obviously this could be covered by a gadget pool. I do not have access to any gadget books so would have make things up especially as he may not give me a list to work on.

 

I am having problems explaining money and character points.

 

If anyone has previous experience it would be greatly appreciated.

 

Two choices come to mind Perq. Teleport equipment chest (Maybe requires a "Wealth" roll...?) or a VPP:Basic equipement Does not work if Teleport powers are inoperable (-1/4?) kinda depends on whats available.....

[Christopher]

Re: Free no character point equipment simulating not very powerful powers

 

I would go for a simple thing: Mundane equipment isn't suitable for a superhuman level fight.

Someone already mentioned the side effect of an direct attack, but it doesn't even need a hit.

The mere sideeffects of an power use can already render those items inoperable:

- being near missed by gronds fist could easily put out your torch. Same goes for Knockback.

- Ever tried fighting a superfight while using a mobile phone? that would require Concentration (1/2 DC at least)

- Using a cord based Free-Speak function? hinders your movements.

- using Cordless Free-Speak? Well, they are designed to stay on your head in a office, not while jogging or advoiding energy blast of Dr. Destoryer

- Your enemy hits (or has disabled in advance) the local comunication system.

That's why the military pays for seperate Comunication-equipment and heros buy Mind Link/radio transmission powers, so they are fit for battle and can't be taken out by mundane circumstances.

[Orion]

Re: Free no character point equipment simulating not very powerful powers

 

If a player asked that of me, it would automatically be allowed. I would never even have to think about it. In fact, as a novel use of his power, I might even give bonus exp for it. I'd put limitations on how fast he could find things, which would be based on how many items he'd want to stash, and I like the idea given above of someone finding and taking the stuff. Every single item would have to be listed and accounted for, but I'd certainly allow it. I can't see how it would affect a campaign in any negative way.

 

Sure, the rulebook says all powers must be bought in a superhero campaign. You can always follow the rulebook and allow no house rules or changes of any type. But the dark champions rules says that you don't have to pay for anything that you can buy. What's the difference? If it doesn't upset one type of campaign, why is it assumed to do so in another? I can just imagine telling a player on Monday night he has to pay points for the flashlight, but when he wants to do the same on Thursday's dark champion's game, he gets it free. And if it's the same world and same GM, it'll be even worse. What if he promises to kill the next three villains he faces and kinda sorta turn the campaign dark? That close enough?

 

You'll allow a cell phone to make calls. What if he wants to use it to look up known info on every single villain he encounters? If there are supers, there's going to be websites and Wikipedia pages devoted to them. Instant KS: villains at 14-. How about using the phone as a flashlight - there's an app for that! GPS and mapping capability? Camera to document the crime scene? Besides the fact that a cell phone is common today, why allow it and not other items? What about the belt to hold up his jeans? Can it be used as a tourniquet, poor quaility whip (belt buckles can hurt!), and restraining device? A winter parka can be 1PD armor and protection against cold based powers. You get the idea.

 

If it is the number of items, give him a limit. If you go strictly by the rules, lay down the law. But if the story is more important - you are playing the genre, not the rules - then not allowing it becomes much harder to justify. Some people base the campaign around the special affects of powers, and modify the rules to fit them. Others base it on the rules, and only allow special affects that fit them. Sounds to me like the two of you are expecting something different, and need to discuss it at length.

 

Of course, the player could also be a munchkin, or just trying to min/max some advantages. In this case, slap him down with everything at your disposal!

[Christopher]

Re: Free no character point equipment simulating not very powerful powers

 

I mostly agree with Orion, but your player sounds like he needs rather clear rules what he can and can't do.

My adivce is still to go either go with the rules, give him "real" equipment with it's drawbacks or have him buy a gadeget VPP.

 

I disagree at one point:

A normal person winter parka isn't 1PD vs. Cold. It's LS: Cold Environment at best. And a fragile one (can't stand any of the side effects of an attack as well as supermans suite or a VPP bought LS: Cold Environment).

[Martin2]

Re: Free no character point equipment simulating not very powerful powers

 

Thanks Orion. Lots of good advice.

I have a character taking pictures with a cell and am allowing it (sort of). He got some information from the pictures. What phone does not have one these days.

But as you say what phone does not have internet access that will give you general knowledge skills and even specific super villain KS. Or possibly there is a special villain team specialised in internet propaganda that just fills the internet full of wrong information about villains (and hero's). So the Wiki page on that villain gets constantly filled full of wrong information (Cybermind getting a fee for anti-knowledge programs filling every entry with random false information and updating it when it gets changed back??). If every open source web entry had this villain has this power but it was a Cybermind program filling every unsecure and a few secure ones with duff information this would kill the internet searches. So any non skilled internet search would be a 8- or lower (rolled by the GM in secret) to find anything useful and a higher roll would be all false information. A very high roll would find nothing. So who knows if you get the right information. Only a paid for KS gets you the information.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Free no character point equipment simulating not very powerful powers

 

- being near missed by gronds fist could easily put out your torch. Same goes for Knockback.

Just a note: I believe Martin metioned something upthread about not being in the US, so by "torch" I think he's referring to what you or I would call a flashlight. Though knockback could cause a torch / flashlight to break.

Sure' date=' the rulebook says all powers must be bought in a superhero campaign. You can always follow the rulebook and allow no house rules or changes of any type. But the dark champions rules says that you don't have to pay for anything that you can buy. What's the difference? If it doesn't upset one type of campaign, why is it assumed to do so in another? I can just imagine telling a player on Monday night he has to pay points for the flashlight, but when he wants to do the same on Thursday's dark champion's game, he gets it free. And if it's the same world and same GM, it'll be even worse. What if he promises to kill the next three villains he faces and kinda sorta turn the campaign dark? That close enough?[/quote']

Snark of the last questions aside, most players understand that different genres have different requirements / limitations. One could make the same argument about Saturday's Fantasy Hero campaign having characteristic maxima, but Sunday's Champions campaign having no maxima.

 

There's a certain amount of balance required. If the brick has to pay 50 points for his 60 STR, but the 5-point Wealth guy says, "I drop some cash on a big-game hunting rifle with a few cases of AP ammo so I can do 2.5d6 AP RKAs" and uses that exclusively in combat, I'd imagine the brick's player might feel a little put-out.

 

FWIW, a player character in my past game had 10 points of Wealth, and I allowed her to buy or lease numerous vehicles without paying points for them, as well as other such stuff, including pagers and throw-away cell phones for teammates. If she'd tried buying custom Kevlar / Nomex outfits for no-point-cost Armor, I'd have had to slap her down, but she understood the limitations. It's a GM judgement call, and I'd make sure the player understood up front that he/she will be able to get use out of the Wealth Perk comparable to the points spent, but getting greedy or munchkiny will, indeed, get smacked down.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Free no character point equipment simulating not very powerful powers

 

As to KS: Villains and online searches, in a past campaign I had an online service, Hero.net, which had hero-vetted info on various villains. The heroes could go on Hero.net before facing off against an expected group of villains and get fairly reliable info on them. The service also put out a weekly newspaper called the Hero.net Herald, which carried articles on paranormal / unusual goings-on in the subscriber's area. I think I made it a 1-point Perk for what was effectively KS: Villains 12- (the low cost since subscribers were also obliged to provide information themselves). It gave me an easy way to recap what happened last time while also introducing potential plot elements as well as a few red herrings or just plain filler stuff. A few times, the players surprised me by getting interested in a filler article, requiring me to flesh it out on the fly.

 

Part of the fun for me, though, was when the Hero.net Herald would simply appear on the hero's kitchen table or inside his briefcase ("How the #%!@$! did they find out my secret ID?!") and they never could figure out how it happened. (It was just a plot device, never drawn up or detailed, just there to fuel the players' paranoia.)

[Christopher]

Re: Free no character point equipment simulating not very powerful powers

 

Another way for reliable Information might be Data Link(wich should be better named: Access to restricted information):

You can have access to the FBI or Until database, giving you a good deal verified of information. For Ingame Effect: How about just buying the KS, but not based on the user INT but 11+, and call it "Access to UNTIL Database"?

[Orion]

Re: Free no character point equipment simulating not very powerful powers

 

I've been thinking of the issue over the weekend. The more I think about it, the better I like the idea of a VPP for the character. I'd be just as likely to tell the player to give me a list of items and we're done, as to give him 15 points and tell him to build a VPP. It seems the VPP is the easy way to model it in game terms. But, then I start thinking about the bad guys. They can't affect it with a drain or some other modification. They can affect the teleport, and they can steal the items, but they can't affect the VPP directly. The storyteller in me has no problems with this, but the GM who has dealt with problem players knows a good rule definition is needed.

 

In my games, the bricks and energy projectors are just as likely to carry guns and buy bulletproof vests as the gadget guy. What they are capable of matters, not how they got it. Point cost really is immaterial to me, and only useful for making rule determinations in battle (how much is drained, etc). The key is not to tell players to show up with 300 points, but to give them upper limits on offensive, defense, and skills. If this is done, it really doesn't matter if they are 275 points and used the Visa card for 25 points of equipment, or have all 300 inherently.

[Christopher]

Re: Free no character point equipment simulating not very powerful powers

 

Are you in 5E? Because in 6E loosing or sharing the item(bought with focus) doesn't give you the points back. Also any PowerFramework can be drained (he may have to make it inherent to avoid this wierd effect). Because even if it get's stolen in his base, he can just port into the shop where he bought it and buy another one, so this won't really stop him.

 

About the time limit: Just make switching it a INT(Search)Roll. If he doesn't makes the roll, just find out how much Extra Time he would need to have made the roll anyway - that's the searching time. If he just aborts and tries later (at least a scene later), he can try again. It's the ultimative "where did I put the car keys?".