A Crisis of Faith...

[Yamo]

I need some feedback on this. Now, I love HERO as much as anybody, but lately, I've been a tad conflicted.

 

Recently, I've discovered a free game system called Tri-Stat dX . It was previously featured in games like Big Eyes, Small Mouth and Silver Age Sentinels, but I had ignored the system up until now because of its close association with anime and superheroes, two subjects I despise.

 

Looking through it, though, I've started to have some doubts over whether HERO is really all I thought it was cracked-up to be. Gasp! Sacrelidge, I know. Certainly, I never dreamed I'd hear myself saying it.

 

Tri-Stat really drove home to be the fact that I was playing a game system that hadn't be completely thought-through in over twenty years. Here's a generic point-based system with effects-based power creation rules and tons of options like HERO, but that also has:

 

a) Three main stats and one to four figured stats instead of eight main stats and six plus figured ones. That's half as many stats!

 

No multipliation, division or fractions. I could do character creation with no calculator.

 

c) No breakpoints.

 

d) No hefting, chucking or tallying bulging fistfulls of dice. In fact, no need to ever roll more than two at once.

 

e) No tactical movement. Not only do I not need minatures or a battlemat, the game seems to actually run better without them.

 

f) A more freeform style that still allowed for a strong rules framework. More stuff is handled outside the written rules, allowing me to play things more "fast and loose." I don't need to consult a chart to see exactly how far someone with Strength X an throw a park bench from a prone position.

 

g) No speed chart.

 

Increasingly, I'm starting to see Tri-Stat as a system with all of HERO's strengths and none of its weaknesses and an example of what the 5th Edition should have been (had only more sacred cows been slaughtered). It seems to do everything that HERO does, except with half the difficulty and twice the speed.

 

So, really, I'm in a bind. I've seen myself as a HERO gamer for so long, that I almost feel bad about being drawn in by another game. The fact that my extensive knowledge of HERO leads me to compare it to Tri-Stat constantly and that the comparisons almost always turn out unfavorable for HERO just compounds the problem.

 

Silly as it sounds, I have this odd guilty feeling about the whole situation, as though it were wrong of me to see another game as being better than HERO. It's not like I'm going to hurt the game's feelings, right?

 

Anyway, I'm just ranting now, so I'll wrap it up.

 

Has anything like this ever happened to you guys? What did you do?

[Monolith]

People's gaming styles and tastes change over the years. If Tri-Stat is your thing now then go for it and have fun. There is no reason for guilt. To each is own. One man's trash is another man's treasure.

[dugfromthearth]

[a) Three main stats and one to four figured stats instead of eight main stats and six plus figured ones. That's half as many stats!]

 

I want more stats. I hated having only 4 stats in GURPS.

 

[c) No breakpoints.]

 

Nice

 

[d) No hefting, chucking or tallying bulging fistfulls of dice. In fact, no need to ever roll more than two at once.]

 

You don't like rolling 15 dice at once?

 

[e) No tactical movement. Not only do I not need minatures or a battlemat, the game seems to actually run better without them.]

 

I like tactical movement. More tactics.

 

[g) No speed chart]

 

I love the HERO speed chart. A fast character goes more often then a slow character. That is a huge plus to the system.

[Vondy]

If it suits you do it.

[Barton]

why not play both

 

Hero system is NOT a either/or choice. Play both. Use adventures from one system converted for use in the other. Please post any ideas of Tri-Stat stuff that might be cool for Champions use.

[Alcamtar]

I played Hero for 10 years, then moved to Fudge, and it became my game of choice for a number of years... for many of the same reasons you're mentioning. (And I felt fanatically loyal to each in turn and was loathe to switch).

 

Fudge is still a favorite, but now I'm returning to Hero (after traveling through a dark and barren land created by certain coastal wizards). I don't know if I'll stick with it exclusively... I like Savage Worlds too, which is faster and simpler, but very tactical and has a Hero-like effects system. And I still like Fudge.

 

But I'm finding that simple games are good for some things, and complex games are good for others. For example, really simple games require very little preparation -- something that drove me to them in the first place. But I've found I enjoy the preparation, and would find myself wishing there were "more to do" in between games. Tastes change, and that's good because it keeps gaming fresh. When I left Hero for Fudge I was getting jaded with it, and it didn't seem worth the effort any more; now it seems new and fresh and the effort itself is enjoyable.

 

Anyway, play what's fun. Life's too short to be too loyal to any one game. If you love Hero you'll be back (with new appreciation), and if you don't love it enough to come back... then you must have found your nirvana, and that's a Good Thing.

 

Mike

[Herolover]

I understand how you feel. I too feel guilty when I look at other systems. In fact, there is only one system that I will choose to play over HERO and that is DEADLANDS.

 

Many times I see games and say, "Yeah, I could buy that game, but I could just do it with HERO." Makes it hard sometimes.

 

I will say this as my last note. Another player in my group bought Silver Age Sentinals and BESM, (I own BESM and like it.) Anyhoo, he was going to do a "Teen Supers" game using the Silver Age Sentinals. Since he knows HERO really well, I just created my character using HERO and gave it to him.

 

After struggling to create my character with Silver Age for about a week he finally gave up and made it a HERO campaign. We really have enjoyed the campaign.

[lemming]

I enjoyed the M&M game zormwill ran. (Prefer Hero, but eh)

 

Deadlands is very cool.

Paranioa is another system I enjoy in it's setting.

 

And I happen to enjoy rolling 20d6. Weee!

[Lord Liaden]

Yamo, I remember when you first started posting to the boards after discovering the HERO System. Your enthusiasm was comparable to one who has suddenly been given the vision of the One True Way, at least in gaming. That's not a criticism, in fact it's entirely understandable; many of us had similar revelatory reactions when moving from more limited games to the vast possibilities of HERO. Like many new converts, your attitude toward the HERO System tended to vacillate between staunch advocacy against all criticisms of it, and profound disappointment when you ran up against some of its limitations. Over time, though, I've watched your appreciation of HERO mature into a balanced recognition of its strengths and weaknesses.

 

I read your review of Tri-Stat DX on RPGNet, and it was obvious that it impressed you (although you were still objective enough to note its flaws). There's no need to feel "disloyal" to HERO just because another system appeals to you. Look around the boards - many folks here play other games, and even prefer them over HERO System for particular genres (even Steve Long gets drawn into D&D sessions from time to time). Nobody really expects you to cleave to HERO foresaking all others. As the Long One has remarked, the more good games there are out there, the more people will get into roleplaying, which only benefits the industry as a whole.

 

I know that HERO gamers often joke about the "one system to rule them all," but we know that's not really gonna happen. Gamers are just too diverse. Some of the comments on this thread demonstrate that things that you find flawed in HERO System are precisely the things that others like. You don't have to abandon all other games to enjoy HERO, and you also don't have to abandon HERO to enjoy Tri-Stat. Variety is the spice of life. Play what you want when you want, switch around when your mood changes, and for goodness' sake don't waste energy feeling guilty over something that's supposed to be fun.

 

(Although I do have to wonder whether you'll be having a similar crisis of faith over Tri-Stat DX this time next year.)

[zornwil]

I'd be more interested in why these are major issues (you just don't like all the numbers/granularity? or does it affect the game-playing?), but anyway, it sounds like you're not big on what HERO does compared to another system. Okay. The real question (to me) is which works best in play as an enabling tool.

 

Like somebody else said, you don't have to pick just one system. I really liked Deadlands' system a lot and am thinking about getting into GMing it sometime (although we have a GM for that who is way good at doing Weird West so I don't want to even try to emulate that).

 

Before 15 years ago I messed with mutiple systems at a time, including Champions. If I had players who "demanded" to play a different system, I'd gladly do so as that's more important to me than the system itself.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by lemming

I enjoyed the M&M game zormwill ran. (Prefer Hero, but eh)

 

Deadlands is very cool.

Paranioa is another system I enjoy in it's setting.

 

And I happen to enjoy rolling 20d6. Weee!

 

You were pretty frustrated at throwing 1 dice for damage and such, though, in M&M.

[Victor]

I'd say play as many different systems as your gaming group(s) will tolerate... variety being the spice of life, and all. If nothing else, it's a good way to carry good ideas over from one system to another.

 

Besides, there haven't been any documented cases of Commissars from the Bureau of Game System Loyalty breaking down someone's door and capping them.

Ever.

It's just rumor and disinformation, even when it happens to a close friend, during a game session.

Nobody's watching.

[Sociotard]

Why RPGs are better than women

 

1) If you decide to change systems after years of commitment, the old system won't get mad at you.

 

2) If you decide to go back to your old system because the "new flame" burnt out, you can.

 

3) you can run two campaigns with two different systems at the same time, and neither will get mad at you.

 

4) you never get sentenced to an appearance on the Jerry Springer show because you frequently engage in any of the above.

[Bartman]

No reason to feel guilty. Heck, I like Tri-Stat for many of the same reasons you stated. In fact my ideal RPG would be a mix of Tri-Stat and Hero with a bit of GURPS and : gasp : Fuzion thrown in for good measure. Enjoy. Play whatever RPG brings you bliss.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Bartman

No reason to feel guilty. Heck, I like Tri-Stat for many of the same reasons you stated. In fact my ideal RPG would be a mix of Tri-Stat and Hero with a bit of GURPS and : gasp : Fuzion thrown in for good measure. Enjoy. Play whatever RPG brings you bliss.

Fuzion? Go away you evil creature!!!!

[Bartman]

Originally posted by Monolith

Fuzion? Go away you evil creature!!!!

Well I did say just a bit. I still think Fuzion was fairly bad. But there were a few good bits in it.

[Beetle]

The whole purpose of gaming is to have a good time (something that is too frequently forgotten). If, at the current time, you can have more fun with Tri-Stat than with HERO, than go for it. No need to feel guilty at all.

[Yamo]

Thanks. You're all right, of course.

 

It's just that I've noticed that HERO gamers tend to stick together develop a strong loyalty to the game in thw long haul. The idea of something else becoming my "default system" is just so unexpected that I'm a little surprised by it. It's not like I'm going to stop buying HERO books or never, ever play the game again, or anything. I'm probably just overreacting.

[lemming]

Originally posted by zornwil

You were pretty frustrated at throwing 1 dice for damage and such, though, in M&M.

IT WAS HELL!!! I think I need to write up a speedster again, just to stay in practice.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Yamo

Thanks. You're all right, of course.

 

It's just that I've noticed that HERO gamers tend to stick together develop a strong loyalty to the game in thw long haul. The idea of something else becoming my "default system" is just so unexpected that I'm a little surprised by it. It's not like I'm going to stop buying HERO books or never, ever play the game again, or anything. I'm probably just overreacting.

 

HERO gamers did acquire a reputation in the past as being cliquish and fanatical about the game, but I think that part of that came from insecurity and defensiveness. Not only did we have to defend the system from its critics, but from those who said (pre-DOJ) that it was moribund and the company dead. Now that Hero Games is both artistically and financially viable, we all seem to feel more confident and more than a little vindicated for our loyalty. I think that's why we are as a whole more tolerant now of people with other gaming preferences.

 

Yamo, it sounded from your review of Tri-Stat dX like your impression of the system comes primarily from reading it. If you haven't played it much yet, especially in multiple genres, you might come up against limitations and flaws that would only be apparent in practice. I've heard people comment on various weaknesses in one or another of the Tri-Stat games that they discovered during play; maybe dX has addressed these, maybe not. I just hope for your sake that you won't be too disappointed if you discover that it's not all that you thought it was, and can still enjoy it for what it is.

 

Of course, if you are disappointed we HEROphiles will be happy to accept you back into the fold, but you will have to be chained to the Stone of Shame for a few days as penance.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by lemming

IT WAS HELL!!! I think I need to write up a speedster again, just to stay in practice.

 

There is nothing quite as satisfying as the old fashioned haymaker (X1.5) and a brick with 80 strength who has succeeded in pushing for a total of 27d6. It reaffirms ones sense of machismo to throw that many damage dice.

 

I had a GM who used a max damage on a roll of 3 or 4 crit rule....

 

54 Body, 162 Stun.

 

Lets just say durak didn't make it to the hospital because the knockback (he was knocked through a 20 DEF security wall) did enough additional damage to put him into negative body (and the gm was using some lethal options). He died in transit under emergency medical care. Eurostar was trying to lift a nuclear weapon from a secure facility and got caught with their pants down. No one cried about it, but the rule did change to "max stun."

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: A Crisis of Faith...

 

Originally posted by Yamo

 

 

Tri-Stat really drove home to be the fact that I was playing a game system that hadn't be completely thought-through in over twenty years. Here's a generic point-based system with effects-based power creation rules and tons of options like HERO, but that also has:

 

I have BESM 2nd, SAS, and some of the anime licensed games (Tenchi series.) I haven't read the Tristat dX docs yet, but it looks very much like the rules seen in SAS. My comments will be based on that game, which I happen to have right here on my desk.

 

a) Three main stats and one to four figured stats instead of eight main stats and six plus figured ones. That's half as many stats!

 

Hero offers detail. Detail is optional in Tristat, but in SAS at least, each of those three stats is broken up into SIX more substats, three major and three minor. That's all well and good, but here's my beef: The SAS disadvantages rules make a big deal about not having personality-based disads (they removed BESM's Easily Distracted, which is a good substitute for Hero psych limits), with a snide remark about not getting points for having a personality. Yet you can buy Less Capable in almost all of the sub-stats, and have no tangible game effect for doing so.. That can make for some major cheddar, and they're spouting off about removing psych lims from their system? Bah. At least in Hero, you only really have one stat that doesn't actually do something.

 

No multipliation, division or fractions. I could do character creation with no calculator.

 

I dunno, you still have a buttload of numbers to add up. I usually use a calculator. The math is simpler, and I love the chargen system. I think I like BESM 2nd better. But it's all good.

 

c) No breakpoints.

 

CV is based on average of Body, Mind, and Soul, with no rounding. If your stats add up to 26, you have a base CV of 8. So, there's one breakpoint: It's often a bit better to buy your stats in multiples of 3. Oh, there's a little division, too. So, there are some minor breakpoints. I don't have a big problem with them in either system.

 

d) No hefting, chucking or tallying bulging fistfulls of dice. In fact, no need to ever roll more than two at once.

 

No, instead, we need to roll against a damage percentage chart. You can do Hero combat without referencing any such chart. I think the gross numbers of dice is highly overstated too often. Let's look at it realistically: If you're running supers you might roll up to fifteen or so dice, but damn does it sound cool! However, don't you prefer fantasy? One or two dice for Killing attacks is average (plus the stun multiple die if you're not using hit locations). Sure, some spells might get into the low teens in dice, but a bunch of dice hitting the table sounds so cool! Also, you can use average dice for a majority of the roll, call them all threes, and just roll a few dice if that bothers you.

 

e) No tactical movement. Not only do I not need minatures or a battlemat, the game seems to actually run better without them.

 

You don't need miniatures for hero combat, either. I've never used minis in a supers game. Ever. (Or a Hero game, but that's essentially the same thing in my case.)

 

f) A more freeform style that still allowed for a strong rules framework. More stuff is handled outside the written rules, allowing me to play things more "fast and loose." I don't need to consult a chart to see exactly how far someone with Strength X an throw a park bench from a prone position.

 

You don't need to in Hero. What's the difference? Your GMing style is your GMing style. BESM and SAS BOTH use the "wing it" approach as a copout for sloppy rules areas far too often. It's one of the things I don't particularly like about the systems.

 

g) No speed chart.

 

Have you read the initiative system yet? And have you noticed that you can get Extra Attacks and Extra Defenses? Start mixing all of that together, and the Hero Speed Chart looks great to me.

 

Increasingly, I'm starting to see Tri-Stat as a system with all of HERO's strengths and none of its weaknesses and an example of what the 5th Edition should have been (had only more sacred cows been slaughtered). It seems to do everything that HERO does, except with half the difficulty and twice the speed.

 

It doesn't have all of Hero's strengths. Not by a long shot, especially where combat is concerned. Tri-Stat combat comes from BESM combat, which is made to emulate that whole anime genre you so despise, which generally de-emphasises combat. It's a weak combat system, and it hasn't been fixed. Chargen is nice. It's not in any way superior, just different. The skills system is not as much to my taste as Hero's, but it's workable, as is Hero's. So, looking at it from my point of view, the game has two strengths, where it may equal Hero, but a glaring inadequacy in the third major area.

 

So, really, I'm in a bind. I've seen myself as a HERO gamer for so long, that I almost feel bad about being drawn in by another game.

 

It's a game. Get over it. Play whichever one floats your boat. They're both decent systems. There is no One System To Rule them All and in the Geekdom Bind Them. Just have fun.

 

Has anything like this ever happened to you guys? What did you do?

 

Nope. I play whatever I happen to be playing at the moment. I like a lot of games. I'm a game whore. I'll play anything remotely playable that people want to play and have fun with. If I can find people I like to game with, I game with them. Systems are secondary.

[Alibear]

Originally posted by Bartman

..with a bit of GURPS and : gasp : Fuzion thrown in for good measure....

 

You've taken that too far.

[Killer Shrike]

{Glances over shoulder at straining bookshelves full of game books from many many systems}

 

Hmm....wouldnt worry too much about it. Play whatever, have fun with it. And when you run up against a rough spot in some other system where the rules just dont quite work see if your back brain whispers "you could do that in the HERO System". If it does then you are a true HEROphile, and youll eventually be back. If it doesnt, then you were merely infatuated with the HERO System, and the moment has passed for you.

 

Either way, so long as you are still gaming its a win-win all around.

[NuSoardGraphite]

BLASPHEMER!!