Realistic Monetary Systems in FH

[Ozymandias]

I've been thinking about something for a campaign setting I'm working on, and I was wondering if anyone has played in a game with a "realistic" monetary system? By that I mean 12 copper = 1 silver, 20 silver = 1 gold, like the pre-decimal Pound Sterling, the French Franc and Livre (which as far as I can tell, was worth exactly the same), the Roman Currency system, and some others, I can't remember. But yeah. I think I like the system in abstract, but I feel it could be difficult to keep up with, compared to the simplicity of the decimal system.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Realistic Monetary Systems in FH

 

I've played other games that used that system. IIRC, Warhammer uses it. It's not too difficult. I personally like monetary systems that aren't "metric standard"...they feel more naturally evolved and less designed.

[Old Man]

Re: Realistic Monetary Systems in FH

 

I'd be inclined to go halfway and perhaps abandon the decimal system, but still use some regular progression such that I could still do the math easily in my head. If 1 gold = 8 silver = 64 copper, that's still way easier for me than this:

2 farthings = 1 halfpenny

2 halfpence = 1 penny (1d)

3 pence = 1 thruppence (3d)

6 pence = 1 sixpence (a 'tanner') (6d)

12 pence = 1 shilling (a bob) (1s)

2 shillings = 1 florin ( a 'two bob bit') (2s)

2 shillings and 6 pence = 1 half crown (2s 6d)

5 shillings = 1 Crown (5s)

 

Only the English could think up a monetary system like that.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Realistic Monetary Systems in FH

 

You forgot guineas (21 shillings)

[Ozymandias]

Re: Realistic Monetary Systems in FH

 

Only the English could think up a monetary system like that.

 

True, but the french came close. As did the Romans. Spanish was a bit different, but still had something akin (8 peso = 1 real; 20 reals = 1 dubloon, I think, with various other subdivisions as it got used more for trans-Atlantic trading) There were a couple other ones not quite so complex, but still a bit. Besides, most of the british coins weren't used all that often. Especially the Guinea, but the Half-crown, also didn't really get much use.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Realistic Monetary Systems in FH

 

No thank you. Give me decimals or give me death!

 

Now, funky exchange rates I have no problem with. If you want to convert gold from Sel Kai over to Rhakkhanian silver, divide by 8.3 instead of 10. That's cool. Other than that a more "realistic" monetary system just makes it hard on every body, including me, and that's bad. Considering that our own money system (and most throughout the civilized world) is based on 10.0 system, I have no problem with this method.

[Old Man]

Re: Realistic Monetary Systems in FH

 

I've always liked the idea of differentiating monies for campaign purposes without necessarily messing with exchange rates. Coinage from foreign lands could come in the form of rings, or sticks, or squares. If purity can be determined, coins could be converted on the basis of weight. And we had one campaign where the gold coins brought up from the ancient ruins were clearly identifiable as such, and when the PCs started spending them, it attracted a lot of attention...

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Realistic Monetary Systems in FH

 

I've been thinking about something for a campaign setting I'm working on' date=' and I was wondering if anyone has played in a game with a "realistic" monetary system? By that I mean 12 copper = 1 silver, 20 silver = 1 gold, like the pre-decimal Pound Sterling, the French Franc and Livre (which as far as I can tell, was worth exactly the same), the Roman Currency system, and some others, I can't remember. But yeah. I think I like the system in abstract, but I feel it could be difficult to keep up with, compared to the simplicity of the decimal system.[/quote']

 

It's not a trimetallic standard. That's a D&Dism. It's money. You can make your coins out of anything you like, although it's best to make valuable ones out of gold and silver, because the demand for plate will support the "price of money." (Bleeah. You know what premoderns needed? A clearer understanding of the theory of value. You know what moderns need? Less Ron Paul.)

 

And the denominations are easy to keep track off. Just remember that it's based on 12 and 20. Think of it as a base 12 system, doubled, which is what all of the European monetary systems were. They're all based on the original Carolingian coinage, and that coinage is based on the assumption that you need to have as many ways to make change as possible, or people will start cutting up the coins. 2, 3, 4 and 6 go into 12, and 5 goes into 20, and Bob's your uncle.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Realistic Monetary Systems in FH

 

History of money: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_money

Fictional currency: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictional_currency

 

--

Chris "asking the palindromedary for permission to play The Question Man" Goodwin

[Cancer]

Re: Realistic Monetary Systems in FH

 

Also remember that an important economic variable can be relative worth of gold and silver (the "bimetallic ratio"). This operated historically in medieval and Renaissance times, because China considered silver to be more valuable relative to gold than the West did. So it was possible in principle to turn a profit by exchanging your gold bullion into silver bullion in Italy, transporting the silver to China, and once there exchanging the opposite sense (so you'd have more gold after the second exchange than you had before the first one). What usually happened, of course, is that people bought trade goods (silks, spices, etc.) with their silver in China and got more profit when they sold those goods back in the West, and this whole picture oversimplifies away the costs of transport and protecting your capital from pirates and robbers.

 

But, if you have a two-metal money system in your game world, you can have the two metals have different relative values in different places. But that level of economics is even more arcane than a non-decimal currency system, so I've never heard of it actually used in a game-world economy.

[bluesguy]

Re: Realistic Monetary Systems in FH

 

I think I will stick with Valdorian Age's 10 copper = 1 silver and ~400 sp = 1 gold bar. Good luck finding a gold coin or bar in my campaign.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Realistic Monetary Systems in FH

 

I just use the normal decimal system for prices, but advise the players they are actually using whatever random amount of the local currency, or weighted trade bars or the like, rather than "a bag full of generic gold coins."

[Barwickian]

Re: Realistic Monetary Systems in FH

 

A brief rundown on old English LSD money in the middle ages (ie, I won't be considering renaissance-era coins like the silver shilling).

 

The units are Librum (£) - pound; sestercius (s) - shilling; and denarius (d) - penny.

 

Up until the 13th century, only the penny was a minted coin. The other units existed only for accounting purposes, alongside other units such as the mark (see below), which have not survived into modern usage.

 

The penny was made of relatively pure silver, and weighed about 1.5g. The usual format was the name and image of the reigning monarch on the obverse and a cross on the reverse. The cross aided in cutting the coin into pieces.

 

Pieces? Yes. Originally, a half-penny was just that - half a penny. No half-penny coin was minted. A quarter of a penny was termed a farthing.

 

The accounting values were (as others have noted) £1 = 20s = 240d.

 

Other accounting units were the silver mark, worth 13s 4d, or 160d (2/3 of a pound) and the rarer gold mark (the value of that escapes me). A reference to just a mark, without specifying the metal, will almost certainly refer to the silver mark.

 

Merchants who wanted higher-value coins used Arabic or Byzantine gold coins.

 

In 1216, the regents of the young king Henry III introduced the gold penny, with a value of 20d (1s 8d). It was not popular and fell into disuse by the 1260s. It's thought the gold content was actually worth more than the value of the coin (about 24d), and most of them were melted down for profit. No other gold coins were introduced until the 14th century.

 

In the reign of Edward I (1272-1307), the first silver farthings were minted. The farthing didn't become a copper coin until the early modern period (early 1600s).

 

Also during Edward I's reign the silver groat was issued. It was worth 4d, though it weighed less than four pennies (and its weight was progressively reduced until it only weighed three pennyweights).

 

That does us for English medieval silver coinage: penny (1d), farthing (1/4d) and groat (4d).

 

With the exception of the failed gold penny, no gold coins were issued until 1344.

 

In that year came the florin, also known as a double-leopard, a gold coin weighing 7 grams and worth 6s (72d). It was based on (and named after) coins from Florence. The gold used was overvalued and the coin was withdrawn from use within months. The same fate befell the half-florin (3s) and quarter-florin (1s 6d), introduced at the same time.

 

The noble, issued a few months after the florin and half-florin (many of the unpopular florins were melted down to make it) was worth 6s 8d (80d, £1/3). It weighed 9g. It was the first widely-circulating gold coin.

 

In 1464, in the face of high gold prices, the value of the noble was increased to 8s 4d (100d) and the weight reduced to prevent the coins being sold abroad for their gold value, but the change proved unpopular and the coin was withdrawn in the 1470s.

 

The older noble coin was replaced in 1465 with the lighter gold Angel, with a value of 6s 8d, which proved popular. The Half-Angel, introduced in 1472, was worth 3s 4d.

 

In 1489 the first Sovereign was issued by Henry VII, with a value of £1 (20s, 240d). It weighs 15.5g. No value was pressed into the coin; it was treated as bullion.

 

That about wraps us up with English medieval gold coins.

 

Recap:

 

12d = 1s. 240d = 20s = £1.

 

Silver coins

Coin		Value	Weight	Period
Penny		1d	1.5g	throughout
Farthing	1/4d	0.44g	1270s+
Groat		4d	5.8g	1270s+

Gold Coins

Coin		Value	Weight	Period
Gold Penny	20d	?	1216-1260s
Quarter-florin	18d	?	1344
Half-florin	36d	?	1344
Florin		72d	5.9g	1344
Noble		80d	9g	1344-1464
Noble (reissue)	100d	7.8g	1464-1470s
Angel		80d	5.1g	1465+
Half-Angel	40d	2.6g	1472+
Sovereign	240d	15.5g	1489+

 

OK, that's the history. How do we apply that to an RPG?

 

First off, there's nothing wrong with keeping a vaguely metric system of copper, silver and gold coins. It's fantasy convention.

 

But if you do want more, I'd suggest either a 12th-century model (only silver pennies are available - Harn uses this), a late-13th-century model (farthings, pennies and groats are minted, all silver), or a late-14th-century model (silver farthings, pennies and groats, and the 80d gold Noble).

 

What of the other coins? They can represent older coins, foreign coins or - as they were in history, failed coins.

 

Addendum: For those using the encumbrance rules, 1kg of silver pennies is 667d; 1kg of the earlier gold nobles is worth 8,889d (£37 9d); 1kg of the gold Angel is 15,686d (£65 7s 2.25d).

[megaplayboy]

Re: Realistic Monetary Systems in FH

 

Well, in the states, we had/have penny, nickel, dime, quarter, half-dollar, dollar. 1, 5,10,25, 50,100. Multiples of 5 and/or 10. Most likely a currency system will use proportions based on the number of digits(hands and feet, with or without counting thumbs/big toes--some races might have 3 or 4 or 6 digits per limb). So I could see base 4, 5, 8, 10, 16 or 20 being used. Metals in existence included copper, silver, gold, platinum, bronze, brass, tin, iron and steel. Rarer metals might include electrum, rhodium, iridium, etc. Fantasy metals might include mithril, truesilver or adamant(ite). Set your heirarchy of coins, and then set the next succeeding coin at 2-20 x the value of that, and so on, up the scale. You could even have your "base coin", for example, be a "silver dollar", and then set the value of a "copper nickel" at 1/20th that, and the "gold crown" at 20 silver dollars, with the "platinum sovereign" at 100 silver dollars/5 gold crowns.

[Doc Quantum]

Re: Realistic Monetary Systems in FH

 

Oh, why do it the easy way? Do it like real people did. Imagine the most commonly purchased goods and services in your fictional society and set values in your fictional currency. By the time your campaign is ready, your players will have lots of time on their hands (being retired and all).

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Realistic Monetary Systems in FH

 

Notice that bullion coins are almost always worth less by face value than the weight of metal. (The Romans did it the other way round, but they had no idea what they were doing, in general. See Roman Empire, Fall Of.) Thus the severe penalties for shaving, clipping, counterfeiting, destroying, bending, spindling, folding and mutilating the coinage.

 

There's reasons for this. One is to encourage mining. People hand their metal over to the mint, and get back more in coins (by face value) than the metal they handed in. Instant profit! (And less a tax, so that the Crown benefits, too.)* Another is that if coin passes at face value in, say, London, it will pass at a discount to its value in Ghent, because you can't spend it in London if it happens to be in Ghent; you have to ship it back to London, and this incurs a cost, which is reflected in the discount. In theory, once the cost of transporting a coin back to London falls below the difference between the face value honoured in London and the value of the metal in the market where it is bought, the coin will simply be melted down. Thus, the stronger the currency, the further your trade will reach.

 

This implies the need for clearing currencies. Which is to say, the shipment of large quantities of bullion long distances in large quantities, to maximise efficiencies. Monarchs who want, for example, to operate armies or fleets in remote parts of the world need to provide security for these shipments. Conversely, they have ways to go astray, most notably through corruption. But since corrupt players don't want to lose their place, they need "pirates" and "bandits" to collaborate with. Now, these kind of dealings arises from any sort of trade --even fermented cod patties aren't immune, rather the contrary-- but gold and silver represent such concentrated value that they're especially vulnerable.

 

Then again, we've already noticed monies of account. Lots of things cost a lakh of rupees, but no-one has ever seen a lakh of rupees. If a merchant comes to you and says "I'll sell you a shipload of calico and pepper for a lakh of rupees," chances are that you, the Bristol merchant, will extend a promise of a lakh of rupees, not chest after chest of doubloons. This is the pledge of your credit. How are you going to get a lakh of rupees? You are not. You're going to go to a Persian horsetrader and deliver your shipload of cannons and gunpowder to him. He will, in return, ship his horses into the Coromandel coast, and deliver fine battle steeds to the zamindars who supplied the calico and pepper in the first place. The only money that will change hands in the end will be the much smaller quantities of rupees needed to smooth out the cost of transactions between horses and calico and pepper.

 

That being said, wherever those rupees go, you, the merchant, will eventually lose a ship. Your credit will be at risk, and people will come to you for coin, not promises. This is "ready money," the actual cash on the barrelhead that one needs sometimes. Then you will be riding through the country, borrowing cash from those zamindars, who have hopefully buried it in the backyard against just such an eventuality. Better hope that you and your friends treated them right!

 

I've only begun to touch on the complexities of working with what Ron Paul and his ilk laughably call "hard currency." I'm not an eighteenth century merchant, so I can't even begin to envision all the possibilities. I am going to underline just how much the "system" such as it is, depends on keeping the trust of your friends, and how much it depends on utterly, ruthlessly screwing the people who are your enemies. And hopefully don't know it. Which makes the whole "trust" thing so much more complicated. You may wonder how anyone survives this sort of thing long, but, of course, they don't. No-one does. The understanding is that when the great men fall, you only execute one of them, and maybe one of their sons. Quietly, a few years later, you come around and give back some of what you took to the others. Next time, it's going to be you.

 

 

 

 

 

*The opposite of this would be why the big Roman mining regions were surrounded by military bases. To protect the state's mining interests, the naive say! So that the army can make the profits from diverting the bullion on its way to the mint, the worldly wise reply.

[Barwickian]

Re: Realistic Monetary Systems in FH

 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Lawnmower Boy again.

 

I have to admit, it took me three reads to understand your post, and my degree is in economics (needless to say, currencies and currency trading were NOT my speciality).

 

But that is very, very good material - lots of potential for setting up a scenario in there.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Realistic Monetary Systems in FH

 

It seems like , in a fantasy setting, the safest and most secure place to store money...might be with a dragon. They live hundreds of years, dwell in remote and difficult-to-access areas, can travel swiftly from place to place, and have a natural affinity for precious metals. Their memories are exquisitely good, they likely have a good head for numbers(meticulously counting and recounting their hoards can do that sort of thing), they have money to lend and money to gain, and they have little difficulty collecting on funds owed. That would make robbing a dragon's lair the equivalent of bank robbery. Well, probably more like robbing Fort Knox, but still...

[Clonus]

Re: Realistic Monetary Systems in FH

 

Notice that bullion coins are almost always worth less by face value than the weight of metal.

More, not less.

[Lucius]

Re: Realistic Monetary Systems in FH

 

It seems like ' date=' in a fantasy setting, the safest and most secure place to store money...might be with a dragon. They live hundreds of years, dwell in remote and difficult-to-access areas, can travel swiftly from place to place, and have a natural affinity for precious metals. Their memories are exquisitely good, they likely have a good head for numbers(meticulously counting and recounting their hoards can do that sort of thing), they have money to lend and money to gain, and they have little difficulty collecting on funds owed. That would make robbing a dragon's lair the equivalent of bank robbery. Well, probably more like robbing Fort Knox, but still...[/quote']

 

Now I have to find a way to work the Dragon Fortanoxious into my next fantasy game....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Enterprises

[Ozymandias]

Re: Realistic Monetary Systems in FH

 

It seems like ' date=' in a fantasy setting, the safest and most secure place to store money...might be with a dragon. They live hundreds of years, dwell in remote and difficult-to-access areas, can travel swiftly from place to place, and have a natural affinity for precious metals. Their memories are exquisitely good, they likely have a good head for numbers(meticulously counting and recounting their hoards can do that sort of thing), they have money to lend and money to gain, and they have little difficulty collecting on funds owed. That would make robbing a dragon's lair the equivalent of bank robbery. Well, probably more like robbing Fort Knox, but still...[/quote']

 

That could seem like a good idea, but the dragon would need to stay put, or else anyone looking for some gold would stake out the dragon's hideaway, until the dragon leaves, and then pocket some of the gold. Not to mention the fact that the dragon is unlikely to act as a money deliverer, so the cost required to get to, and get back from, the dragon's lair would need to be subtracted from the investment. And that's assuming the dragon is trustworthy.

 

In my campaign setting, that type of role will be filled by the Dwarven Kingdom, who have a monopoly on the Mining and Minting guilds, and contain a large percentage of the banks of the world. They're sort of like Switzerland, in that their economic power, and the investment of foreign kingdoms in their banks prevent them from being attacked. If anyone were to attack them, they could ruin that kingdom's economy.

[Barwickian]

Re: Realistic Monetary Systems in FH

 

It seems like ' date=' in a fantasy setting, the safest and most secure place to store money...might be with a dragon.[/quote']

 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to megaplayboy again.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Realistic Monetary Systems in FH

 

That could seem like a good idea, but the dragon would need to stay put, or else anyone looking for some gold would stake out the dragon's hideaway, until the dragon leaves, and then pocket some of the gold. Not to mention the fact that the dragon is unlikely to act as a money deliverer, so the cost required to get to, and get back from, the dragon's lair would need to be subtracted from the investment. And that's assuming the dragon is trustworthy.

 

In my campaign setting, that type of role will be filled by the Dwarven Kingdom, who have a monopoly on the Mining and Minting guilds, and contain a large percentage of the banks of the world. They're sort of like Switzerland, in that their economic power, and the investment of foreign kingdoms in their banks prevent them from being attacked. If anyone were to attack them, they could ruin that kingdom's economy.

 

I was thinking, one adventure seed could center around a dragon banker hiring the PCs to act as extra security while they are away conducting business across the world. On a more regular basis the dragon could simply hire humanoid guards to keep watch, probably from a culture well-known for their loyalty and trustworthiness.

 

Or you could have a dragon acting as a "loan shark"

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Realistic Monetary Systems in FH

 

More' date=' not less.[/quote']

 

See? I confused myself!

 

As for the dragon, "dragon's hoards" are to start with a metaphor for the kind of bad ruler who buries his treasure away instead of spreading it around his followers. (The hoarder is assumed to have evil motives. As money becomes more scarce, or is understood to becoming more scarce, people are increasingly called upon to present ready money in payment of debt, even as it becomes harder and harder to find. People pay ever more in kind for a given amount of money, until eventually the hoarder shows up to make you an offer. Want to clear your tax bill? Here's some money for your estate (or your daughter's hand). Not much money. But enough.

 

Usury is basically the same idea, only more overt. Notice, by the way, that in attempting to avoid this trap, the great and good will end up pre-emptively hoarding until the state finds a way to break this deflationary cycle. Notice, too, that higher taxes are the ultimate solution. Not that I'm trying to draw a moral or anything.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Realistic Monetary Systems in FH

 

I was thinking, one adventure seed could center around a dragon banker hiring the PCs to act as extra security while they are away conducting business across the world. On a more regular basis the dragon could simply hire humanoid guards to keep watch, probably from a culture well-known for their loyalty and trustworthiness.

 

Or you could have a dragon acting as a "loan shark"

 

I'd think, more likely acting as the dragon's collection agents. And bring it a cow every now and again.