Do you use Teamwork?

[Steve]

In my last session running my Icons campaign, the players were really starting to understand the value of the Teamwork skill. Against the supervillain Holocaust, four of the team of five made their Teamwork roll and stunned him with their combined damage. They then repeated the feat on the next phase. It felt like a very comic book moment to see them all hit together like that. They had been buying it up a little at a time, starting at 8-, then 10- and now several of them have it as a full skill.

 

Teamwork is a pretty powerful skill. My only concern now is how to deal with future battles, now that they're working together better as a team and using their Teamwork skills.

 

How has Teamwork been used in your campaigns? What benefits or problems has it caused?

[Zen Archer]

Re: Do you use Teamwork?

 

Only ever used something like that in a Golden Age game, when I played a sidekick to another hero. It was only the two of us, so there was no risk of unbalancing. Otherwise, either the GMs didn't like it or not enough players were interested.

 

IIRC, the Leadership skill in the old Mayfair DC RPG had similar benefits, and we used that a few times.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Do you use Teamwork?

 

I don't require the use of Teamwork to coordinate attacks or such; HERO has enough die rolls already, and I'm generally against anything that makes cooperation more difficult.

 

Essentially, though, what it means (at least relative to your situation) is that you have to avoid the use of Solo opponents. Give your big-bad at least a couple of henchmen, even if they're not as powerful as a standard PC, just to throw off the gang-fire tactic you've described. That, or make sure they have stratospheric CON scores and extra defenses against being Stunned.

[Christopher]

Re: Do you use Teamwork?

 

The usual trick with solo-opponents is mediocre defenses with Damage Negation and more SPD than the fastest hero. Of course stunning despite DN is what Teamwork is good at.

[The Main Man]

Re: Do you use Teamwork?

 

If you have a group that uses Teamwork as a skill, well, it's there in the book. If you somehow feel they abuse it (not sure how), perhaps create villains with Change Environment effects that penalize the Teamwork Skill. A better idea than that though is making such a power but giving conditions in which it doesn't work, thus promoting certain team tactics against certain villains.

 

Besides that though, villains and monsters can also use Teamwork. Perhaps give them certain powers that rely on a contest of Teamwork versus Teamwork. Could make for a fun challenge while promoting teamwork.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Do you use Teamwork?

 

I have used it with some NPC goblins in a TH game. Suddenly, those puny goblins became a whole lot more scary, after a small swarm took down a big armored opponent.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Do you use Teamwork?

 

I have used it with some NPC goblins in a TH game. Suddenly' date=' those puny goblins became a whole lot more scary, after a small swarm took down a big armored opponent.[/quote']

 

This is my usual method for pointing out useful stuff I think my players have overlooked.

[bluesguy]

Re: Do you use Teamwork?

 

The way to balance this, in a superhero game, is all in the setup. For instance if the superhero team is made up of 4 superheroes and you don't want them to use Teamwork have them face 4 supervillains are 'balanced' against that team. In that scenario the players aren't likely to use Teamwork just because of how the combat breaks out.

 

In a scenario where the same team is facing a single master villain then of course they are going to use Teamwork to overcome the master villain. Will always work? No. There are some many variables for it work - need to hit, make teamwork roll, roll damage, etc. There is a darn good chance that only 1/2 the team makes their to hit & teamwork roll.

 

As I GM I would probably cap the Teamwork roll to 11-.

[Christopher]

Re: Do you use Teamwork?

 

TThere are some many variables for it work - need to hit, make teamwork roll, roll damage, etc. There is a darn good chance that only 1/2 the team makes their to hit & teamwork roll.

 

As I GM I would probably cap the Teamwork roll to 11-.

If you cap it at 11-, then the chances aren't that good. But otherwise with 4 heroes, the Multiple Attacker Bonus will drastically improve the to-hit odds, making this tactic a surefire way to hit.

 

The very things that make single Supervillains capable of being a good match for a hero group (mediocre DCV + Defenses, but Damage Reduction), also make them vulnerable to teamwork. A good DCV and defenses can protect them against Teamwork, but that also means that some members of the group won't be able to fight effectively against this foe at all.

The best "protection" realy seems to be for the foe to have allies around. Henchmen could easily target every hero holding a phase to Coordinate. And even if they succesfully coordinate and stun the villain, they will have difficulty to make a followup Haymaker or similar "exposing" maneuver.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Do you use Teamwork?

 

We tend to ignore teamwork by mutual consent. It is simply too nasty to use against the players, so I do not use them as a GM and they try not to use it against the NPCs, unless it really is the only way to go.

 

Six VIPER agents with 9d6 blasters, which you could largely ignore most of the time, and a decent Teamwork roll. They also have a couple of Entangle AoE grenades, only a couple of dice worth. They are facing 4 superheroes set up to deal with 12d6 attacks, so they have around 24 ED. One of the agents lobs a grenade and sticks a hero to the floor: they become DCV 0 and have only picked up a couple of extra defence, say +3: the other 5 have a chance of being able to add their STUN through defences (STD) together. 9d6 gets you an average of 31.5., or 4.5 through defences: 5 of them can effectively do 22 or 23 STUN for stunning purposes. That could easily enough STUN a hero. OK, that may not matter if the agents are on their own, but backing up a couple of villains it can be very nasty. It can be very nasty because the villains can then happy slap the stunned Hero and he is out of the fight. You probably don't even need the Entangle grenade if you can get enough opponents together with their multiple attacker bonus.

 

Tactically you are best (usually) taking out one opponent completely rather than damaging several a little bit.

 

The flip side is what initiated this thread: it can be really anti-climactic if you have a powerful master villain and the team manage to one shot them. Well, OK it is cool the first time but boring the third...it means that GM has to bung in several other characters just to negate the tactic. Even then the team will, if they have any sense, take out the most dangerous opponent first.

 

This was probably more of a problem in 5th edition where you had stun lottery to cope with and a 2d6 killing attack would probably get a few good rolls which could make a huge difference.

 

So, no, we tend not to use it much.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Do you use Teamwork?

 

The other extreme is simply to take this in stride and make the villains that much more powerful - the heroes will need to use teamwork to take them down, rather than just buying bigger attacks. It seems pretty satisfying to have the heroes who, one on one, get stomped able to work together to take down a much more powerful opponent.

 

And, as Sean points out, lower powered opponents can similarly use Teamwork to be more effective against the PC's, where that becomes desirable. It seems like "the heroes are more effective not because they are more powerful, but because they work as a team" is a pretty common genre trope.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Do you use Teamwork?

 

This is certainly true in the comics - but only AFTER most of the heroes have tried individual attacks which have been shrugged off. Players of RPGs tend to be much more pragmatic and will start with the Teamwork...

 

You will also tend to find certain evolutionary pressures arising if the GM does this a lot: for example defence maneouvre is a good way to avoid the multiple attacker bonus.

 

The other problem with Teamwork is it tends to be particularly nasty to Brick types, as they are easier to hit in the first place, and tough types shrugging off dozens of opponents at once is certainly a genre trope too.

[Christopher]

Re: Do you use Teamwork?

 

The other problem with Teamwork is it tends to be particularly nasty to Brick types' date=' as they are easier to hit in the first place, and tough types shrugging off dozens of opponents at once is certainly a genre trope too.[/quote']

The same way it is common for Martial Artist types to fight dozens of opponents (with automatic weapons), without being hit.

[Lucius]

Re: Do you use Teamwork?

 

I have hardly ever SEEN Teamwork.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says that refers to Teamwork, the named Skill - players exhibiting teamwork is not rare

[bluesguy]

Re: Do you use Teamwork?

 

My players are already looking to buy teamwork. They see its value. They went up against four bricks in one game and they started complain - we hit them with everything we've go but we can't keep them down.

[Christopher]

Re: Do you use Teamwork?

 

My players are already looking to buy teamwork. They see its value. They went up against four bricks in one game and they started complain - we hit them with everything we've go but we can't keep them down.

4 Bricks? Propably all the same powerlevel?

Sounds more like a problem in the villain planning. Homogenous teams easily have such problems. Would also happen with 4 Flying EP's or 4 Martial Artist.

[dmjalund]

Re: Do you use Teamwork?

 

one could make a house rule that Teamwork doesn't work in the first round of combat.

[Bolon]

Re: Do you use Teamwork?

 

This conversation seems to be about how to penalize the players for good tactics aka teamwork. IMHO it promotes a GM versus players mentality. Do your players have a reason for buying teamwork from the start or have you ruled that teamwork is a developed skill with XP? They decide to buy it and use it.

 

Then your criminals or villains need to look at why they would buy teamwork. Are they organized enough to work as a team or are they a bunch of solos? Would they think it is a good tactic or would it be better for them to just get more henchmen or better plans? A bunch of solo villain together for a single job or crime wouldn't but a tightly grouped team of villains might. Bikers might not but an elite special forces section might. Are you buying it to make a better fight or are you buying it as part of storytelling and big better adventures? Maybe you have the villain buy it as they are a group that are very slick and precise that the heroes are not in their league without teamwork. Maybe they are greed and wouldn't spend for the training but prefer to just get more men. If it is about the story and the adventure, you will ensure the tale is well told versus the battle is long and drawn out. It sounds like maybe your gaming comes for a different place. Where do you want it to come from?

[Steve]

Re: Do you use Teamwork?

 

I went back and re-read my original posting. I'm not complaining at all about Teamwork. I'm happy to see everyone pulling together like the Avengers or X-Men. I just want to be able to provide challenges that will provide drama.

 

I was looking for advice on dealing with a team that works as a TEAM and not a collection of solo heroes that just happen to be together.

[Christopher]

Re: Do you use Teamwork?

 

I went back and re-read my original posting. I'm not complaining at all about Teamwork. I'm happy to see everyone pulling together like the Avengers or X-Men. I just want to be able to provide challenges that will provide drama.

And I cannot see why Bolon considered it a sign of Player vs GM mentality.

 

I was looking for advice on dealing with a team that works as a TEAM and not a collection of solo heroes that just happen to be together.

- A personal Change Environment, 0 END, Persistent vs. Teamwork could help to make the Rolls "not sure". -2 too -4 is a big penalty.

- Defense Maneuver II only costs 5 points and eliminates Multiple Attacker Bonus and "attack from behind" bonus, if the player can percieve the target.

- Another way is to give the foe "just enough extra defenses" on a Focus, that not enough stun get's past Defenses. With exsiting Defenses and Damage Reduction, not much is needed. Then the heroes would have to take out the Focus first. Something similar can be done with "Mystical Artifact of power" that improve the user beyond what the heroes could fight - but hit the object, he is back to "normal".

- Devided at Impera - Divide an Conquer. The Villains knows he is alone and wouldn't stand a chance against the Team. He could plan multiple crisises at once, so they have to split and he can take on one sub-team (capturing them). Or maybe he has a special robot that "grabs, drags & drops" a few of the character to seperate them/delay their return.

- If the villain can function without light, let him turn off the light. Now the few heroes that can see in the dark have to turn on the light, or move the fight to where there is light.

- Champions 6E has a Teleport Harness item, with the variant "Supervillain getaway Teleporter" (Nr.10). It's teleport with a Trigger. Once set, the villains has to keep the teleporter from workign by saying something every 30 seconds. If he is K.O. and can't say the word: Automatic Teleport. So they knock him out, but he just ports away.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Do you use Teamwork?

 

My Champions group all bought Teamwork after they had been together for several months fighting and training together as a team. It gets used fairly often, so I build my solo villains accordingly: high CON, high DCV, Damage Resistance/Negation, etc. I'm particularly fond of DR, as it lets the players do some damage, while making the villain last longer. My players are good about using Teamwork when dramatically appropriate, rather than opening with it every time.

 

We also use Teamwork for other situations where the heroes want to coordinate their actions in some way, like a Fastball Special.* (If one or both characters fail their roll, they can still try the maneuver, but with an OCV penalty; OTOH if they exceed their roll they can reduce the OCV penalties associated with the maneuver.) Broadening the scope of the skill makes it not just about combining Stun.

 

* The group is particularly fond of the Fastball. Partly because they love the imagined visual of the skinny mystic chick throwing the big armored brick at people.

[Lucius]

Re: Do you use Teamwork?

 

My Champions group all bought Teamwork after they had been together for several months fighting and training together as a team. It gets used fairly often, so I build my solo villains accordingly: high CON, high DCV, Damage Resistance/Negation, etc. I'm particularly fond of DR, as it lets the players do some damage, while making the villain last longer. My players are good about using Teamwork when dramatically appropriate, rather than opening with it every time.

 

We also use Teamwork for other situations where the heroes want to coordinate their actions in some way, like a Fastball Special.* (If one or both characters fail their roll, they can still try the maneuver, but with an OCV penalty; OTOH if they exceed their roll they can reduce the OCV penalties associated with the maneuver.) Broadening the scope of the skill makes it not just about combining Stun.

 

* The group is particularly fond of the Fastball. Partly because they love the imagined visual of the skinny mystic chick throwing the big armored brick at people.

Darn it, I cant reputize you.

 

Hey, maybe that's a clue I have been spending too much time online today.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is in favor of broadening scopes, and Lucius is in favor of

[bluesguy]

Re: Do you use Teamwork?

 

Sorry about to hijack the thread for one post... My apologies in advance

4 Bricks? Probably all the same power level?

Sounds more like a problem in the villain planning. Homogeneous teams easily have such problems. Would also happen with 4 Flying EP's or 4 Martial Artist.

 

No I specifically planned on them fighting a villain team of four bricks. Each brick had their own 'special' thing they could do and that made it interesting. The players were able to put down two of the bricks pretty easily (the least versatile). But the last two... It was very comic book. They all smacked those last two bricks as hard as they could. Eventually the telekinetic, who has an entangle based on grabbing nearby objects to 'wrap up opponents' got enough metal chain wrapped around one of the bricks and then two others KOed the guy. The last one just coming back for more until someone remembered - Oh I have a flash attack. After the villain was flashed he gave up.

 

The nice thing about brick villain teams is the players can let loose with everything they have and be sure they won't kill the villains.

 

I would never have them face 4 flying EP that would be wrong because only one character can fly (well aside from doing fastball special telekinetic throwing the brick).

[bluesguy]

Re: Do you use Teamwork?

 

I like the idea of everyone in the group just agreeing that using Teamwork in the first turn of combat against a solo villain will not make for an interesting story.

[casualplayer]

Re: Do you use Teamwork?

 

Why in the world would anyone want to discourage their players from acting like a team? I thought that was the greatest feeling a gm could achieve, knitting a group of loners into a force to be reckoned with.

 

If your villains can't withstand a teamwork blitz maybe your villains could use a boost or a return to villain school.