Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

[death tribble]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

No what I meant is that there are characters in Sci-fi/Comics/TV that are loved by everyone who were designed originally as Male Characters. Only later in production where they changed into kick ass women characters.

 

Ellen Ripley from the Alien series of movies. That character was originally supposed to be played by a guy. The dialog etc was written for a guy. They gave the part to Sigourney Weaver and history was made.

 

Of Course the one everyone knows was Starbuck from Battlestar Galactica. Originally Played by Dirk Benedict, was going to again be played by Dirk Benedict in the what was going to be a Sequel Version. When the Production team changed, it was eventually decided to give the role of Starbuck to Katie Sackoff. Many Fans (myself included) were unsure that such an Alpha Male role could be done well by any woman. Katie really surprised me in the first episode being just as kick ass, devil may care as Dirk's Starbuck and I think she took the role to new Heights.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/features/meet-the-new-action-heroines-1980491.html

Has a list of TV and Movie roles that were originally wrote for a guy and then rewritten for a woman.

 

I saw a very interesting article on this. That when creating interesting character that one should create a character first without worrying about gender. I am personally trying to do something similar for a demo game that I am working for the Champions Complete Launch. I plan on writing up 7-9 characters, but write them without gender. Which should allow anyone playing them to assign what gender they wish to the character.

 

I just keep thinking that the best female characters are ones that are competent, powerful etc. Who are written with few stereotypes burdening them. Though I do love the touches that women authors add to their characters. ie I love when Laurel K Hamilton's Anita Blake has to deal with wearing heals, hose, skirts and silk blouses to crime scenes and zombie raisings as that is what is acceptable attire for a business women. I love when she has problems with shredded hose and broken heels when she does anything more than just walking normally. I also love that when she knows trouble is coming she will wear Sensible shoes and clothing. Totally Kick Ass character dealing with what a lot of women deal with every day (shredded hose, and broken heels etc, not the gunshots, zombies etc).

 

My apologies I did not get what you originally meant. I am aware that originally Ripley was written as a man and so was Lambert but the head of the studio Mr Ladd said change two of the roles and as ypu say history was made.

I have the new Galactica on DVD and enjoy it. I did not feel the same about the original although Benedict was an exception.

 

As to Anita Blake this was a series I really enjoyed until it became more about the character having sex then having a plot. I think the last decent one is Obsidian Butterfly. The sad thing is that Hamilton is ignoring this. Now if I want a vampire story with a plot the Sookie Stackhouse books are the ones I read. The fact that Sookie is still a waitress and still has to navigate getting money as well as living with her talent and the various powers around is more believeable.

I was introduced to the Anita Blake books (as well as the Dresden ones) by a female friend. I returned the favour with the Stackhouse books.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

My apologies I did not get what you originally meant. I am aware that originally Ripley was written as a man and so was Lambert but the head of the studio Mr Ladd said change two of the roles and as ypu say history was made.

I have the new Galactica on DVD and enjoy it. I did not feel the same about the original although Benedict was an exception.

 

As to Anita Blake this was a series I really enjoyed until it became more about the character having sex then having a plot. I think the last decent one is Obsidian Butterfly. The sad thing is that Hamilton is ignoring this. Now if I want a vampire story with a plot the Sookie Stackhouse books are the ones I read. The fact that Sookie is still a waitress and still has to navigate getting money as well as living with her talent and the various powers around is more believeable.

I was introduced to the Anita Blake books (as well as the Dresden ones) by a female friend. I returned the favour with the Stackhouse books.

 

The last few have Anita Blake books actually been very good. A much better balance between Asskicking and kinky sex (as in much more ass kicking). She IS listening to the fans. Anita has really backed off on needing sex etc. It's still in the books as there are now fans that are expecting it, but it takes up less of the book.

 

The Original Battlestar Galactica takes a special place in my memories. It was really fun at the time, but it really hasn't stood up to me growing up. There are some episodes that are still fun and watchable and some that are just painful and hokey. You also need to have a high tolerance for the same battle scenes being recycled time and time again.

[input.jack]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

The Original Battlestar Galactica takes a special place in my memories. .... You also need to have a high tolerance for the same battle scenes being recycled time and time again.

 

Yeah....I have a soft spot for that show too, but there are like three space combat shots....blaster fire climbing diagonally across the screen to the left, across the screen to the right, and then the "kabom" and the Viper flies thru the explosion. I think they got all of their scape combat SPFX footage from the pilot movie, and couldnt afford to do more.

 

If only someone would do a modern remake of that series. That would be nice...*

 

 

*(I didnt like the modern remake. They totally missed the mark, to me, in how the characters interacted. Especially Tighe. And Cylons. And everything else)

[Cygnia]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

[h=1]When Gut-Boys Attack[/h]

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

If the guy couldn't be arsed to put the huge block quote into actual text, I can't be arsed to read it. I hate that crap.

 

ETA: Sorry, Cygnia. Rant not directed at you. Just feelin' my old eyes today.

[gojira]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I thought this comment, posted below the article linked to, was the best:

 

His Wikipedia page now says he is best known for his hatred of women. With citation.

 

LOL!

[SKJAM!]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I seem to recall there was a post eaten in the crash about a group trying to help gamer guys get out of the misogyny mindset. Could we get a repost on that?

 

 

Y'see, one of the things I've noticed is that "morts" tend to get told to fix themselves, by themselves, and they're the people with the least amount of correct tools to do that with. Some will get lucky and stumble on a way out, but many are just left to vainly struggle in their own morass of dysfunction.

[Cygnia]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

[h=2]Breaking the silence to shut them up – gamers and “rape”[/h]

[input.jack]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

[h=2]Breaking the silence to shut them up – gamers and “rape”[/h]

 

That must have been VERY hard to write.

 

I wanted to leave a supportive comment, but apparently you have to have a website to do so (unless I misunderstood how their comment section works).

 

WTF is wrong with the guy that she was playing the MMO with, that he would react that way after being told what had happened to her?!?

[Cygnia]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

That must have been VERY hard to write.

 

I wanted to leave a supportive comment, but apparently you have to have a website to do so (unless I misunderstood how their comment section works).

 

WTF is wrong with the guy that she was playing the MMO with, that he would react that way after being told what had happened to her?!?

 

You don't have to have a website; that part is optional. But you do have to have an e-mail address (which isn't shown).

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

New Article Very interesting. Original Link at the end Please visit the website to help them generate clicks

 

Tasha

__________

 

 

Nov 15th 2012 By: Rachel Edidin

 

Geek Masculinity and the Myth of the Fake Geek Girl

 

 

I've been thinking about fake geek girls--or, more, the tenacity with which the geek community has latched on to the bugbear of the fake geek girl. Even in a community with a reputation as argumentative, the intensity and volume of the vitriol directed at the fake geek girl is unprecedented. It's flat-out weird.

 

So, what makes the fake geek girl such a threatening spectre? What, exactly, does she threaten?

 

"Geek" is a gendered noun. There's a GeekGirlCon, but no GeekGuyCon: every con is GeekGuyCon, unless it specifies otherwise. You don't say "geek guys" the way you say "geek girls": once you've said "geek," the "guy" is pretty much taken as read.

 

When a label is gendered, it carries all the attendant baggage. What does that mean to geeks? Well, we, as a culture, regulate masculinity very closely. It's valuable in ways femininity isn't, and that makes it more fragile as well. The worst words you can call a man are the ones that question his masculinity, or, worse, imply that he's feminine. Even "girl" gets thrown around as an insult.

 

Take a moment to think about what that means--to women, but also to men; and particularly to the way men are taught to see women. Girls in a guy zone become a threat. They taint what they touch by association. A girl who's into guy stuff, that's understandable, an upgrade; but a guy into girl stuff is a broken machine.

 

If you start there, it's easy to see how we might have become predisposed to looking at female-identified geeks with suspicion. They're other. They don't fit the narrative. They require qualifiers, not just "geeks," but "geek girls" or "girl geeks": already a step removed from the real deal.

 

So, when I say that "geek" is a gendered noun, and that its default gender is masculine, I'm saying something about how it intersects with a specific set of cultural values--and, by extension, I'm saying something about the value of masculine identity to the geek community.

 

At the same time, though, geek culture is a haven for guys who can't or don't want to fall in step with the set of cultural trappings and priorities of traditional manhood in America. At least in theory, geek culture fosters a more cerebral and less violent model of masculinity, supported by a complementary range of alternative values. But the social cost of that alternative model--chosen or imposed--is high, and it's often extorted violently--socially or physically. The fringe is a scary place to live, and it leaves you raw and defensive, eager to create your own approximation of a center. Instead of rejecting the rigid duality of the culture they're nominally breaking from, geek communities intensify it, distilled through the defensive bitterness that comes with marginalization. And so masculinity is policed incredibly aggressively in geek communities, as much as in any locker room or frat house.

 

It's not surprising, then, that being a woman in geek culture was for a long time a profoundly gender-deviant act. "Girl" and "geek" were a zero-sum dichotomy: to claim space in one, you had to relinquish equivalent claim to the other. Recently, though, there's been a dramatic change: a sudden surge not only in the visibility of women in geek culture, but of the visibility and popularity of more traditionally feminine avenues of engagement with that culture--stuff like cosplay and crafting, both overwhelmingly female-dominated areas. At the same time, women are finding ways to reconcile geekery with femininity, which means that geek identity is no longer unimpeachably male. For the first time, there are visible swathes of geek culture that aren't only female-majority, but unabashedly girly--in a culture where feminization is very directly equated to deprecation of value.

 

And all of this is happening in a community primed to respond aggressively to newcomers, and particularly to female newcomers. Some of that comes out as direct aggression. Some of it comes more subtly, in the form of perpetually challenging or dismissing credentials. Thus, the new stratification of "real" vs. "fake" geeks, where "real" is conveniently identified as the more traditionally male dominated modes of engagement.

 

Keeping that definition narrow and making sure it discourages newcomers also guarantees that you'll keep a staunch set of female allies. For those of us who had to mortgage significant parts of our identities at the door, it's hard not to see the new generation of geek girls as interlopers, getting a free ride where we had to laboriously claw our way in. When you're part of an underrepresented group, it's easy to fall prey to a reductive fallacy that there's only room for one way to be female (or Black, or disabled, or queer, or...) in geek culture, and anyone who approaches that identity from a different angle threatens your claim to it--not so different from geek culture's own struggle to maintain a discrete identity as our iconography and media bleed their way into the mainstream. If those people can be geeks, what will be left for me? And if the tent is that big, what, ultimately, is membership worth?

 

The truth is, of course, that it's not a zero-sum game: insularity and identity-policing will consume geek culture faster and more thoroughly than any legion of imaginary interlopers. For decades, we've prided ourselves on being forward-thinkers, early adopters, willing to challenge cultural norms and think and work outside the boxes imposed on us. Imagine how far we could go if we could then stop replacing them with boxes of our own design.

 

 

Rachel Edidin is an Associate Editor at Dark Horse Comics. You can follow her on Twitter at @RaeBeta

 

 

Read More: http://www.comicsalliance.com/2012/11/15/geek-masculinity-and-the-myth-of-the-fake-geek-girl/#ixzz2CjmikG1N

[Zeropoint]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

The ponies have shown me that there's no wrong way to be a girl . . . by extension, I assume that applies to all the other things a person can be. No wrong way to be a man, no wrong way to be a geek.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Jim Sterling over at The Escapist weigh's in heavy on the subject... (NSFW)

 

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6535-Fake-Nerd-Girls

[Vondy]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

This more or less answers the question I was going to pose which is. As a guy' date=' I am incapable of doing more than merely imagining what a gamer geek girl goes through. Being unable to understand the situation, how do I correct it? More to the point, how do I tell if I'm succeeding?[/quote']

 

Its your job to conduct yourself in an upright, thinking, respectful manner. Treat gamer girls with the same respect you give male gamers. No more or less. Be decent.

[Vondy]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

My 2AP...

 

There are sexist jerks in the geek community. There are considerate paragons in the geek community.

 

Like every other [insert sub-interest here] community...

[Vondy]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I'd be lying if I said I didn't like to look at pretty girls in games.

 

I feel no guilt over liking to look at pretty women. I feel no guilt over enjoying some cheesecake here and there. I don't believe women need to feel bad about liking beefcake, and getting warm over hot guys. There is an entire market of erotica and romance catering to women. Its less visual than the more traditionally (but not exclusively) male mediums like comics and pinup art, but its there. And some women like the visual stuff, including straight up porn. We're human. Sexuality, attraction, and eroticism are a powerful part of the human experience. Its a real thing. Pleasure and beauty and hormones have a certain value to them. On the other hand, there are limits. Much gaming and comic book art, however, lacks any and all subtlety, ignored all suspension of belief, and crosses the line from alluring, erotic, sexy, and titillating into demeaning exploitative trash lacking any reasonable context. And I don't just mean demeaning to women. Its often demeaning to men to. It assumes we lack all dignity and nuance, and bombards us with a dehumanized version of a very human thing. I'm all for sex and titilation and hot men and women in gaming and comics. Its escapism and I want to escape to an exciting steamy place. But I also want it to treat me with respect and handle both men and women - in all their beautiful and sexy glory - like human beings (or whatever).

[Vondy]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

The last few have Anita Blake books actually been very good. A much better balance between Asskicking and kinky sex (as in much more ass kicking). She IS listening to the fans. Anita has really backed off on needing sex etc. It's still in the books as there are now fans that are expecting it' date=' but it takes up less of the book.[/quote']

 

I heard she shifted back to the original formula. If so, I'm glad. I really liked the first 4 novels, and found 5-6 tolerable. The criticism that she was ignoring the fans was legitimate for several years, however. There was a long stretch of middle books that degenerated into paranormal sex with a handwave at plot. And, her famous author hissy fit dismissing fan criticism is as famous as Anne Rice's. Not that I mind erotica and kinky books, mind you. Its just, that wasn't why I was reading Anita Blake, nor why I enjoyed them. It was just sexy leaven. I may have to pick up one of the later ones. When did she move back to the "original script?"

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I heard she shifted back to the original formula. If so' date=' I'm glad. I really liked the first 4 novels, and found 5-6 tolerable. The criticism that she was ignoring the fans was legitimate for several years, however. There was a long stretch of middle books that degenerated into paranormal sex with a handwave at plot. And, her famous author hissy fit dismissing fan criticism is as famous as Anne Rice's. Not that I mind erotica and kinky books, mind you. Its just, that wasn't why I was reading Anita Blake, nor why I enjoyed them. It was just sexy leaven. I may have to pick up one of the later ones. When did she move back to the "original script?"[/quote']

 

From what I understand there was a period where she or her new SO became uneasy with the subject matter of the books and the amount of True Crime books that the Author was consuming as research. So she moved away from the creepy serial killer true crime stuff and moved more toward romance. That did bring her a new and different audience, but alienated parts of her original audience. Eventually she decided to move back toward her other style and her collection of True Crime books became available to her again. So the books became better balanced between the two styles, with at least one book being just about kicking asses and taking names with really scary people (people who were bigger monsters than the Vampires and Werewolves).

 

As for when she started the move back I will have to look at the books later and get back to you on that.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I feel no guilt over liking to look at pretty women. I feel no guilt over enjoying some cheesecake here and there. I don't believe women need to feel bad about liking beefcake' date=' and getting warm over hot guys. There is an entire market of erotica and romance catering to women. Its less visual than the more traditionally (but not exclusively) male mediums like comics and pinup art, but its there. And some women like the visual stuff, including straight up porn. We're human. Sexuality, attraction, and eroticism are a powerful part of the human experience. Its a real thing. Pleasure and beauty and hormones have a certain value to them. On the other hand, there are limits. Much gaming and comic book art, however, lacks any and all subtlety, ignored all suspension of belief, and crosses the line from alluring, erotic, sexy, and titillating into demeaning exploitative trash lacking any reasonable context. And I don't just mean demeaning to women. Its often demeaning to men to. It assumes we lack all dignity and nuance, and bombards us with a dehumanized version of a very human thing. I'm all for sex and titilation and hot men and women in gaming and comics. Its escapism and I want to escape to an exciting steamy place. But I also want it to treat me with respect and handle both men and women - in all their beautiful and sexy glory - like human beings (or whatever).[/quote']

 

Well said and I agree with you completely.

 

I also love looking at pretty women (comes with being a Lesbian). There are some guys that also catch my eye as well, but not as often as women. I love artwork that has women doing heroic stuff in sensible clothing that still shows the subjects beauty. Kind of like the Mass Effect 3 FemShepard picts.

[massey]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I feel no guilt over liking to look at pretty women. I feel no guilt over enjoying some cheesecake here and there. I don't believe women need to feel bad about liking beefcake' date=' and getting warm over hot guys. There is an entire market of erotica and romance catering to women. Its less visual than the more traditionally (but not exclusively) male mediums like comics and pinup art, but its there. And some women like the visual stuff, including straight up porn. We're human. Sexuality, attraction, and eroticism are a powerful part of the human experience. Its a real thing. Pleasure and beauty and hormones have a certain value to them. On the other hand, there are limits. Much gaming and comic book art, however, lacks any and all subtlety, ignored all suspension of belief, and crosses the line from alluring, erotic, sexy, and titillating into demeaning exploitative trash lacking any reasonable context. And I don't just mean demeaning to women. Its often demeaning to men to. It assumes we lack all dignity and nuance, and bombards us with a dehumanized version of a very human thing. I'm all for sex and titilation and hot men and women in gaming and comics. Its escapism and I want to escape to an exciting steamy place. But I also want it to treat me with respect and handle both men and women - in all their beautiful and sexy glory - like human beings (or whatever).[/quote']

 

I've clearly missed a whole bunch of this conversation, and I'm not going back to reread everything that was said between my last post and now. I'll agree with you to a certain extent, except to say:

 

You don't read Hustler for the articles.

 

There's definitely a segment of nerd-dom entertainment that is, what did you call it? Exploitative trash. There's a real market for exploitative trash. Lot of people buy it. None of this is exclusive to our hobbies. It's just like Hustler. Don't like Hustler, don't read it. I don't watch Honey Boo Boo. I don't watch Jersey Shore. Stay away from crap you don't like and you'll be a lot happier. Or maybe not. There are people who listen to Sean Hannity every day jusy so they can get mad at the things he says. Everybody has their own exploitative trash that they all kind of like. Is there value in that? Maybe. Maybe it's the Carl's Jrs of entertainment.

[input.jack]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I LIKE Carl's Jr......

[casualplayer]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

And I used Hustler as a source for a high school paper on atheism. There was a great interview of Madalyn Murray O'Hair.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I've clearly missed a whole bunch of this conversation, and I'm not going back to reread everything that was said between my last post and now. I'll agree with you to a certain extent, except to say:

 

You don't read Hustler for the articles.

 

There's definitely a segment of nerd-dom entertainment that is, what did you call it? Exploitative trash. There's a real market for exploitative trash. Lot of people buy it. None of this is exclusive to our hobbies. It's just like Hustler. Don't like Hustler, don't read it. I don't watch Honey Boo Boo. I don't watch Jersey Shore. Stay away from crap you don't like and you'll be a lot happier. Or maybe not. There are people who listen to Sean Hannity every day jusy so they can get mad at the things he says. Everybody has their own exploitative trash that they all kind of like. Is there value in that? Maybe. Maybe it's the Carl's Jrs of entertainment.

 

Sure I can stay away from some of the worst of the exploitative crap. Unfortunately when it's a part of our mainstream PnP gaming experience through the Rulebooks of Mainstream RPG. That's when it's a real problem. So I Can't just buy something else if I want to play D&D or even Pathfinder. Hell, there's art in some of the Hero Books that's pretty exploitative. The people agitating for change doesn't want to see frumpy Nun's habits or full body robes. They just want women to be portrayed in clothing and armor that covers the body and is actually something that one might wear to a fight. That means that armor should cover the torso and midriff and armor leggings should look like metal or leather and cover the legs. Most women would be ok with form fitting armor that covered the whole body. More realistic armor in some artwork would be nice too.

[massey]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Sure I can stay away from some of the worst of the exploitative crap. Unfortunately when it's a part of our mainstream PnP gaming experience through the Rulebooks of Mainstream RPG. That's when it's a real problem. So I Can't just buy something else if I want to play D&D or even Pathfinder. Hell' date=' there's art in some of the Hero Books that's pretty exploitative. The people agitating for change doesn't want to see frumpy Nun's habits or full body robes. They just want women to be portrayed in clothing and armor that covers the body and is actually something that one might wear to a fight. That means that armor should cover the torso and midriff and armor leggings should look like metal or leather and cover the legs. Most women would be ok with form fitting armor that covered the whole body. More realistic armor in some artwork would be nice too.[/quote']

 

Oh, if you're wanting different art in D&D and Pathfinder, I'm all with you. I think most of it looks like absolute crap. To me it's not that it's exploitative, it's that it sucks. Nothing says adventure like dozens of belts and straps!

[SKJAM!]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

In re "don't like, don't read"--I am reminded of a letter to the editor in the Minneapolis paper quite a bit ago.

 

This was back when Howard Stern first got syndicated on a local radio station. They launched an advertising campaign featuring buxom young women in skimpy clothing, including one highway billboard just before the busiest intersection coming into downtown, with the young woman in question bending over to show maximum cleavage.

 

The letter writer admitted that he was a bit of a prude, and that not everyone objected to seeing skimpily-clad women posed suggestively. "If I don't want to see it in movies, I don't go to those movies. If I don't want to see it in magazines, I don't buy that kind of magazine. If I don't want to see it on television, I can change the channel, or better yet shut it off. But I think it is asking too much of me to make me close my eyes while I'm driving!"

 

So erotica in its place, fine, but if it's in things that should theoretically be accessible to people who don't want erotica, not so good.