Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

[input.jack]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Minor tangent #1: YAY ZAXXON! Im glad to know I wasnt the only one addicted to that game! (Id rep you for it, Tash, but it wont let me).

 

Minor tangent #2: In Star Wars TOR, body type 4 is seriously... rotund... for males, I agree. (Hello, Babriel Iglesias). But it is also curvy/well padded for female characters, though, and I honestly thought it was a step in the right direction for providing diversity. (Body type 1 for both males and females is slender, body type 2 is athletic/heroic, and body type 3 makes you an Asgardian, for those who dont play the game). Ive got characters on all 4 body types, and of both genders. The place I fall down is that all my characters are Human....because I dont really like the looks of most of the available PC races they have so far. (Im looking forward to Cathar becoming available as PCs tho)

 

Relevent comment: I think Casualplayer has hit a social nail on its social head. The way we tend to categorize things in top-to-bottom, best-to-worst lists is quite probably part of the problem with our perception that those like us are "better" and those unlike us are "yabboes", when we are young. However, I dont see a way around it from where Im standing. Maybe someone else can come up with something....

 

Id like for Massey to please explain to me how providing male and female players with a variety of body types and appearances is somehow a bad thing. Ill admit; I tend to be pretty appearance-elitist when it comes to my own characters, whether they be male or female. I stopped playing Secret World (I think that was the MMOs name) in beta because their avatars were all very...plain looking. I want my heroic characters to be heroic-looking. (I grew up reading Doc Savage and Tarzan and John Carter...)

 

But I know that Im not the only one playing. I gamed back in the late 80's and early 90's with a guy who made ALL of his PC's "average Joes"; 8-10 STR, 8-10 COM, and so on. His Star Trek character was a Science department enlisted man whose chief job was keeping the equipment clean, and was good at taking sensor readings. That was it. Is it important to have someone keep the gear clean and in working order? You bet! Would I play that as a PC? Never. Did he have a great time playing the character? Actually he did!

 

Takes all kinds.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Id like for Massey to please explain to me how providing male and female players with a variety of body types and appearances is somehow a bad thing.

 

Well, as the COH Devs explained it, more body types adds to development time/expense for each and every costume piece and animation in the game. Each one of those things would need to be rechecked and reworked for compatability. Otherwise you get clipping and other issues that make the game look second rate and peopel then complain that the option is there but it sucks.

 

It's one of the reasosn they were adamant about not adding in additional body types after release. Huge Female (for heavily muscled super women), overweight/fat for both genders and various nonhuman body types were requested regularly. They were also quite reluctant to red light "cross dressing", which was also requested on many occassions, but would run into simialr problems. Mind you I think in all my time playing the "coross dressing" aspect mostly came from players that wanted more "Butch/Tom Boy" options for thier female toons. Relativly few players actually stated they wanted to play a dude running around in a bra and stockings. Though they absolutly DID exist. I still remember one players impassioned plea to the devs to not change the power FX for Brute invulnerabilty, since the sparkling rainbow colors were a vital aspect of his characters concept of Trollvestite (this was years before we got power customization).

 

Regardless, I also think it was ultimatly felt that any of the above would be features that wouldn't be used much so it was not worth the time and money. Statistically, this is probably true. But, we'll never really know for sure

 

COH had an incredible degre of customization allowed already, what with the various body sliders and power customization, but no matter how much they added they were never gogn to satisy everyone. Most games don't take the time to even try though, so you end up with the reliable stereotypical.

 

The majority will always crave statuesque males and centerfold females and the industry will always primarily cater to that majority.

 

I think that is unlikely to change in the future, but we have deffintly seen a slow shift over time. Afterall, this is what Lara Croft looks like now:

 

[lemming]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Meanwhile' date=' you have the really questionable "Save the Ta-Tas/Boobies/Melons" message for breast cancer awareness. Not "save the actual sufferers of breast cancer be they men or women", just the breasts themselves. 'Cause I tell ya, if a masectomy's gonna save my life, then bye-bye breasts.[/quote']

 

Yep. My wife is single breasted now. If a certain genetic test had come back positive, both would of gone. The save the etc makes good copy and hopefully gets early testing done a bit more, though more work is needed on that front for everyone.

[casualplayer]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Massey, it's real important that you don't say anything that can be taken as insulting to Lemming's wife. Use up all the tact you have left if you have to.

[lemming]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Massey' date=' it's real important that you don't say anything that can be taken as insulting to Lemming's wife. Use up all the tact you have left if you have to.[/quote']

 

I doubt he would. It's a side conversation.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I'd be lying if I said I didn't like to look at pretty girls in games. That confession out of the way, here's another (WoW related) one: I think the Tauren are cute, the voice isn't bad. And the orcs, (though they could use better hairstyles) goblins, gnomes, with the exception of the Forsaken, I'd be pretty pleased to chat up any of the races. Though I have to admit the Belfs are obnoxious and it would be a stretch...

 

but still, it's a game and my general assumption is that every player I meet is a 12 year-old boy. So that limits my desire to flirt with them...unless it's in a BG and I'm stomping them. I do that occasionally...I still remember making my first female character and how many guys would offer to help me out questing and then disappear when I mentioned my ex-wife...No one hit on Ardora though, I was surprised, dwarves are cute. Great accent.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Heh, I remember waaay back at the beginning. I was leveling up my NE Warrior and doing the quest for the weapon. This really helpful guy I was questing with on his Warlock hopped on his somewhat higher-level Druid, and helped me gather all the stuff for the quests for the Whirlwind weapon, and with the final bit of the quest. This was a pretty long chain with a lot of travel, so it took some time. He was good company, chatty, and polite. Until he found out I was a guy. He got a lot less chatty. Then I slowly lost contact with him.

 

MMOs are silly.

 

I don't really mind playing female characters that look like porn stars so much as playing female characters that take the look into uncanny valley territory or just have grossly wrong anatomy (CO females, I'm looking at your spines). I think WoW does a decent job. The female Humans are busty, but also broad in the hips and generally well-rounded. Look like some stereotypical Midwest farmer's daughters. They even have some old and ugly face options. NE females are OK, though I can see some being offended by the bouncy idle animations. The non-human races are decent. Of course, you only get one body type with WoW due to game engine constraints. But I think they managed to achieve the goal of having each race have its own unique shape (to tell apart in PVP) and look fairly decent without being insulting. You can find real examples of every human body type in the game on an average stroll downtown.

 

GW2 on the other hand (and GW1 for that matter), makes it nearly impossible to make an ugly female human (or Norn). The female humans, save for one face, all look like pedo-bait on top of it. CO, as I already mentioned, has horrible female models. I know they wanted a comic book look there, but they could have opted not to use the Image skeleton for the girls. On the other hand, STO has nice models. So does DDO and LOTRO. Both Turbine games also feature armor that looks like armor on the females. (Unlike the bare-midriff look in WoW on a lot of armor).

 

I don't think as far as MMOs go, save for some of the Asian grind-fests, that we're in terrible shape. Plus, MMOs do have to limit choices to some degree, depending on the game engine. They may not be there yet, but I think they're getting there. At least some of them.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Based on E84's and PG's experience noted above, I wonder from a psychological perspective if the overly sexual female forms in many MMOs could have a minor eye-opening experience -- for the guys playing them, as they get to see how other males react.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Granted, I met my best wow-friend playing my female dwarf. She assumed I was a girl and it wasn't until our third time questing together that I mentioned the ex. She was shocked I'd play a female. (And I was shocked she was a she...)

[Hermit]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Based on E84's and PG's experience noted above' date=' I wonder from a psychological perspective if the overly sexual female forms in many MMOs could have a minor eye-opening experience -- for the [b']guys[/b] playing them, as they get to see how other males react.

 

You know, I have played a female character in the game. I prefer to play male, call it a limit of my own imagination, but I didn't get hit on TOO much. I WILL say that folks seemed far more tolerant of my mistakes (And while I enjoy WoW, I am not good at it). Maybe they were just being nice because they wanted 'a chance', or maybe it was misplaced chivalry or flat out sexist bull#$#$ ("It's a man's game blah blah so of course she sucks").

[Greywind]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I'd be lying if I said I didn't like to look at pretty girls in games.

I like looking at pretty girls. In reality. In photos. In artwork. In games. Beauty attracts the eye.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Should've heard my guild first time they heard me speak in Ventrillo. I have a pretty deep voice. (Do a fair James Earl Jones imitation.) While I do play both male and female characters, two that I play the most are female. A few of my guildies (this was 40 man raiding days) weren't aware I was a "he." The shock and confusion was amusing. As were the tells from a couple of the (verified) females in the guild telling me they liked my voice. =)

 

Then there was the one time everyone was having loot drama in Vent and I had a headache. I yelled "Shut up!" into the mic. They shat up. (What? "Shat" isn't the past tense of "shut'?) I think I damaged a few headsets that time.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Based on E84's and PG's experience noted above' date=' I wonder from a psychological perspective if the overly sexual female forms in many MMOs could have a minor eye-opening experience -- for the [b']guys[/b] playing them, as they get to see how other males react.

 

I play a fair number of female toons. I have been hit on before and it deffintly happens more when I'm playing a female toon, though it has happened when I play some of my male toons as well. But doesn't happen to my female toons very often, nor do I get treated differently, because I make no pretense of actually being a woman.

 

I have seen occassional atitude shifts when I DO seriously roleplay one of my female toons though. Had one poor guy incredibly upset that I was not only male but American (apparently some of the slag I used was quite authentic... blame Guy ritchie films I guess)

 

I have observed that I get compliments on my costume designs way more often when I play female toons. Most of the complimets for my male toons are along the lines of "neat concept" or "clever name", with only the occassional "OMG, U R SO HOT"...

[Cancer]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I've ranted about the in-game image thing a couple of times (not in this thread) ... most recently my attempt to find an image for a modestly-dressed staff-wielding female magic-user in a "standard" sort of high fantasy campaign. I couldn't find any. I ended up settling for an androgynous but intended to be male image (a scrawny sort-of-elvish trickster type), and reducing (rather than cropping) it to unrecognizability. I was annoyed.

 

On socializing boys and young men ... First, remember that it takes 10-15 years for changes in socialization to turn into systematic differences in behavior in adults. And then the effects of that change in socialization propagates through the population at one year per year.

 

Second ... I have other concerns, but that's not something for this thread.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Based on E84's and PG's experience noted above' date=' I wonder from a psychological perspective if the overly sexual female forms in many MMOs could have a minor eye-opening experience -- for the [b']guys[/b] playing them, as they get to see how other males react.

 

Nah, they usually act like loose women. It's part of how they see it.

I think they'd actually have to be unable to step away, forced to be women for some time. And maybe not even then.

[Hermit]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Nah, they usually act like loose women. It's part of how they see it.

I think they'd actually have to be unable to step away, forced to be women for some time. And maybe not even then.

 

Reminds me a little of the 80s movie "Soul Man" Where a white kid masquerades as Black in order to get a scholarship

 

Professor Banks: You've learned something I can't teach them. You've learned what it feels like to be black.

Mark: No sir.

Professor Banks: Beg your pardon?

Mark: I don't really know what it feels like sir. If I didn't like it, I could always get out. It's not the same sir.

Professor Banks: You've learned a great deal more than I thought.

[Cygnia]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Paging Doctor NerdLove: Understanding Women

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Eh, not sure on that one.

[Cancer]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Yeah, I believe that as much as I believe any other pop-psych guru. They bat about league average, and do worse in the clutch. In fact, I would have to read carefully and think before I was sure whether or not that was intended to be real or merely satiric and/or another "men are clueless idiots" put-down job.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

We're all snowflakes!

[teh bunneh]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Because, chicks. Amirite, fellas?

[Guest Celt]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Because' date=' chicks. Amirite, fellas?[/quote']

 

Roll percentile.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

01

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

We're all snowflakes!

 

With some flakier than others!

[massey]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Back to this thread after a brief break.

 

It was never easy for me. I was born a poor black child. I remember the days, sitting on the porch with my family...

 

Oh wait, that was a different guy.

 

I've never played an MMO. My attention span is far too short and I can't sit still for that long. I did download one once on my iPhone and got killed by a rabbit or something after like a minute and a half. I couldn't figure out how to do anything except run around in circles and I quit. That was three bucks down the drain. So I guess I've got about 90 seconds of MMO experience.

 

My first point in all of my responses in this thread has been relatively straightforward. We've got environments that have traditionally been inhabited solely by males. Not just any males, but frequently males who are poorly adjusted socially. Not only are they rude to women, they are frequently rude to each other. They may be rude in a different manner to women, but they are no less rude to men. We are talking about a group of people who, as I understand it, "teabag" defeated opponents by repeatedly crouching over their face, representing placing their balls upon the opponent's mouth. You have the Omega Male (though honestly I think that term should represent someone much cooler, I'm imagining Darkseid with the glowing eyes) who is desperate to lose his omega status. They look for weakness. If something bothers you, they will do it more. They smell blood in the water and react accordingly.

 

If you are easily offended, you deserve what you get by going into a place like this, be it game store or online roleplaying. You don't go into a Steelers bar and wear a Philadelphia Eagles jersey and expect no one to react. I am not saying that women shouldn't go into these environments. You can go wherever you want, I don't care. But I don't go to the Angry Divorced Women's Book Club and expect to be welcomed with open arms. The Young Democrat doesn't go to the Mitt Romney watch party and expect everybody to be nice. There is a certain percentage of the nerd crowd who have real problems with women. This is where they go. You couldn't find them more easily if you were Batman and found their shoeprints at the scene of a crime.

 

Second, I think claims of sexism have gone overboard. Yes, I'm sure it still exists in many places. In fact I have said that it absolutely exists in this particular environment. But we're now talking about complaints that you can't play a fat chick in a video game. This is the equivalent of the complaint that people on TV are too good looking. "Why are all the successful lawyer and doctor women on TV very attractive?" Because it's TV, that's why. It is not real. These complaints become boring. They also begin to feel incredibly hypocritical, and many men, including and especially me, are tired of it.

 

Why are they hypocritical? Because of the actions of many (though not all) women. When a woman complains about men treating women as sex objects, and then runs out with her friends and sees Magic Mike three times, or openly drools over that kid who takes his shirt off in the Twilight movies who is half her age, she is a hypocrit. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. When a woman wears a shirt designed to show off her cleavage, and then gets mad when a guy looks, she's a hypocrit. All too often Hot Guy stares at a woman with his smoky gaze, and she melts. Then Stinky Mortimer does the exact same thing, weak eyes straining to focus through the inch thick lenses of his glasses, and the same woman calls him a creep. Clearly the difference between a creep and a stud is whether he makes her horny. That's hypocritical. And it happens all the time. I do not blame all women for the actions of some. I do not deny that sexism exists and in some cases is a real problem. But those who whine about every perceived transgression have had their arguments muted by the skank patrol.

 

Tasha, please realize just as there are women you don't like to be judged by, the ones who act like complete sluts and are viscious little bitches, the men you complain about are their counterparts on our side. So when you judge "nerd society" because of the guy who can't talk to you but will stare at your boobs, that's no better than me judging women by a girl who decided I didn't make enough money for her.