Pre Attacks

[Ndreare]

Reading another post had me thinking about how often I have heard people say that presence attacks are or should be rare.

 

I have always felt presence attacks in both real life and in the game are actually pretty common. My players have their characters use them in social conflicts, at the start of battles or during interviews and when trying to impress the villagers or nobles they come across.

 

In real life I see vehicles with presence and have known more than one "Charmer" who deliberately uses their natural charisma whenever possible.

 

So the question is how loose are you with Pre and how often do you let the players use them in your games?

[Greywind]

Re: Pre Attacks

 

Whenever they feel it's appropriate.

 

Whenever I feel it's appropriate whether or not the players actually stated they were making one. Batman scares the piss out of people for a reason.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Pre Attacks

 

This is coded into the game, to a degree; every repeated PRE attack against the same target takes a -1d6 penalty; it doesn't take many for them to become completely ineffective, so you should save them for good times.

 

There's also the 'quality of the Presence attack' modifier; you're probably going to need that one, and I'm sure we've all had the issue of not being able to come up with a good line.

 

It also bears noting that not all uses of Presence are Presence Attacks. That 'charmer' is, in game terms, most likely using skills like Persuasion and Seduction rather than making outright PRE Attacks. Your characters in social conflicts, or during interviews, or trying to impress the locals may well be in the same boat (probably Oratory, if they're making a speech).

[pinecone]

Re: Pre Attacks

 

Reading another post had me thinking about how often I have heard people say that presence attacks are or should be rare.

 

I have always felt presence attacks in both real life and in the game are actually pretty common. My players have their characters use them in social conflicts, at the start of battles or during interviews and when trying to impress the villagers or nobles they come across.

 

In real life I see vehicles with presence and have known more than one "Charmer" who deliberately uses their natural charisma whenever possible.

 

So the question is how loose are you with Pre and how often do you let the players use them in your games?

 

I let it buck whenever...I just don't sign on to the whole "That! Cannot happen!" style of gaming

[bluesguy]

Re: Pre Attacks

 

My players use Presence Attacks quite a bit. I actually encourage it. The villains will do the same in return. PRE attacks & soliloquies are where the role-playing comes into the combat IMO.

[Tasha]

Re: Pre Attacks

 

This is coded into the game, to a degree; every repeated PRE attack against the same target takes a -1d6 penalty; it doesn't take many for them to become completely ineffective, so you should save them for good times.

 

There's also the 'quality of the Presence attack' modifier; you're probably going to need that one, and I'm sure we've all had the issue of not being able to come up with a good line.

 

It also bears noting that not all uses of Presence are Presence Attacks. That 'charmer' is, in game terms, most likely using skills like Persuasion and Seduction rather than making outright PRE Attacks. Your characters in social conflicts, or during interviews, or trying to impress the locals may well be in the same boat (probably Oratory, if they're making a speech).

 

I usually only use the penalty for someone who is trying again and again to cow their target during a specific time in the combat. If someone else tries the PRE attack against that same target, I allow the first one at full value. It's all about fun etc.

 

Yeah I also tend to move them toward using the Skill after combat. It all depends on circumstances. I like to be flexable and I try not to say No too often.

[Laundry Knight]

Re: Pre Attacks

 

On a related note, I've seen crime dramas where the good guys would take turns interrogating a prisoner and slowly wearing the culprit down. How would you do that?

[Ndreare]

Re: Pre Attacks

 

It is interesting to see the discrepancy from group to group. As a group that uses them a lot I had previously assumed everyone else did as well.

 

On the topic of skill versus PRE I consider the PRE skills themselves as the equivalent of a social attack roll.

If you want to make it PRE attack first you make the appropriate skill roll (i treat all PRE skills as everyman so everyone gets at least an -8). If you succeed then you roll PRE dice.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Pre Attacks

 

On a related note' date=' I've seen crime dramas where the good guys would take turns interrogating a prisoner and slowly wearing the culprit down. How would you do that?[/quote']

 

Interrogation.

[Greywind]

Re: Pre Attacks

 

...with bonuses for length of time.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Pre Attacks

 

My players use Presence Attacks quite a bit. I actually encourage it. The villains will do the same in return. PRE attacks & soliloquies are where the role-playing comes into the combat IMO.

 

 

Same here.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pre Attacks

 

OK, someone has to: I don't like the PRE attack mechanic, no I don't.

 

Why?

 

Well, first of all I don't think it really simulates things that happen.

 

Second it is a bit of a blunt instrument.

 

Third, no one likes it up 'em.

 

Fourth: no downside.

 

What?

 

1. What does PRE attack do? I mean, do in Hero? Let us start by contemplating the evolution of Hero. You remember (or maybe you youngsters don't) - Hero had no skills. PRE attacks were the only form of non-roleplay social interaction we had. Now we have skills, and we've still got PRE attacks. OK then, specifically what do they do? Depending on effect, cause hesitation, the loss of a half phase, the loss of a full phase and half your DCV, or the loss of, well, everything, including whatever your sphincter muscles were looking after.

 

2. Blunt instrument: 3d6 PRE (or about 15 points) = about 1 level of effect i.e. +10 points of effect - on average. I know this follows the pattern established by the use of mental powers, but I think we could probably stand a bit of improvement there too. Look at what we have anyway: 10 PRE v 10 PRE: average roll = 7 v 10. Even with modifiers (say +2d6 for surprise and violent action - generally the easiest to engineer), the best you can realistically hope for is +PRE (hesitate). OK, useful sometimes, but not great. 20 v 20 is even worse: 14 v 20, 21 v 20 with +2d6, very little chance of a higher effect. It gets progressively worse with matched PRE as you go on up as 1d6/5 gives you 3.5 points of effect v 5 defence. What about mismatched PRE? Well, fine. You got 30 (which is pretty much superhuman), they got 10, you roll 21 on average and they lose a half phase: even with the +2d6 attainable bonus, you only get 28 on average, same effect - and that is a pretty BIG difference. You only really get the big numbers if you get a lucky roll or if you manage to stack the bonuses - more of that later. Thing is if you have a character that deserves 30 PRE, they are probably going to be able to whup the guys who deserve 10 PRE anyway. Even most mooks in superhero games get up to 15 PRE. So, the real deciding factor here seems to be luck. Have you noticed how one of the factors for bonuses is NOT 'outnumber opponents': probably one of the biggest 'actual' factors in this kind of thing, but left out because the Heroes are usually outnumbered.

 

3. No one likes it up 'em: I said above that you needed modifiers to get big numbers and, generally, the villains are the proactive lot, certainly at the beginning of a game, and so they tend to control the battlefield, or at least have a lot of say in the set up - even in the later game they are on home ground. Moreover, the heroes, being an ongoing team, will be known, as will their strengths and weaknesses. That means, logically, villains would be in the best position to set up bonuses, like the room where all the doors slam and guns emerge from the walls as troopers descend from ropes and cover them with guns, and four supervillains teleport in and do something well rehearsed. I tell you what, the players are going to be desperately impressed with your GMing skills if all their PCs, due to a combination of bonuses and good rolls, soil themselves. Try explaining to a group of superheroes that, actually, what the supervillain says makes a lot of sense to them and they really think it is a good idea to get out of those suddenly smelly costumes and into some nice cosy power cuffs. Best of luck with that.

 

4. No downside: you can do a PRE attack whenever you want and at no time cost, and no downside if you blow it. That means that you might as well use it whenever you can, in case you get that lucky roll, which is, frankly, tiresome.

 

There are probably other reasons too, like the fact that the system itself does not take into account the target: if you are a superhero who considers himself invulnerable, are you really going to be impressed by that supervillain tossing a Subaru from hand to hand, then drop kicking it into WalMart? You can do that and then some.

 

We can MAKE it work - sort of - by basically recognising it as flawed and compensating in the generosity of our bonuses and such, but, really, if I'm going to fudge it anyway, I don't need a mechanical system to hang it on. I'll just fudge it and call it role playing. I mean, look, the best use for PRE attacks is probably just mopping up: rather than bash those last few agents into paste, call for their surrender. Mind you, as a GM, I'd allow that anyway, and do it based on the agents I had in mind: they might surrender, they might flee, they might fight on or suicide. I'd be doing it for dramatic, story driven reasons, not because I need a mechanic like this to tell me how people are going to react.

 

So: I don't use them that much.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pre Attacks

 

Also Agents are usually built on the same PRE and the same EGO: they all react the same way? Doubtful.

[bluesguy]

Re: Pre Attacks

 

Sean ... Could you tell us what you really think? Don't hold back this time. .

[Gary Miles]

Re: Pre Attacks

 

4. No downside: you can do a PRE attack whenever you want and at no time cost, and no downside if you blow it. That means that you might as well use it whenever you can, in case you get that lucky roll, which is, frankly, tiresome.

There can be downsides to blown PRE Attacks.

 

I had a guy once throw an 8d PRE Attack.

 

He rolled five 1's and three 2's.

 

The Agents just laughed at him and shot him.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Pre Attacks

 

There can be downsides to blown PRE Attacks.

 

I had a guy once throw an 8d PRE Attack.

 

He rolled five 1's and three 2's.

 

The Agents just laughed at him and shot him.

Would they have not shot at him otherwise? What was the downside?

[Gary Miles]

Re: Pre Attacks

 

Would they have not shot at him otherwise? What was the downside?

If the PRE Attack had been successful, then depending on the level of success, they they would have probably lost a 1/2-Phase, followed the hero's orders, or run away with brown shorts.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Pre Attacks

 

If the PRE Attack had been successful' date=' then depending on the level of success, they they would have probably lost a 1/2-Phase, followed the hero's orders, or run away with brown shorts.[/quote']

But them shooting him is not a draw back of a failed PRE attack. They would have shot him anyway. And since using a PRE attack doesn't take up an action he's in no worse position, thus that is not a "downside to a failed PRE attack". It's just what would have happened anyway if he had never even attempted on in the first place.

[griffinman01]

Re: Pre Attacks

 

But them shooting him is not a draw back of a failed PRE attack. They would have shot him anyway. And since using a PRE attack doesn't take up an action he's in no worse position' date=' thus that is not a "downside to a failed PRE attack". It's just what would have happened anyway if he had never even attempted on in the first place.[/quote']

 

Perhaps you could implement some kind of reverse effect where the thugs see this superhero trip over his cape and they get a bonus ("how tough can he be if he's tripping over himself"). Maybe the superhero loses a half phase because he tripped or the thugs automatically get first action against the hero. I think that you could possibly do a failed PRE attack as if the enemies used a PRE attack at the same effect.

 

For example:

A PRE 30 hero tries to PRE attack and rolls 3,3,2,2,1,1 on his 6 dice for an atrocious total of 12, thus missing the target by 18. You treat this as adding 18 to the Thugs 15 PRE and as a PRE attack against the hero for a total of 32. Since the hero has 30 PRE, the 32 means that the thugs all get to act before the hero does during this phase. You can then RP it as the hero tries to tell the thugs to surrender peacefully, but his cape gets caught up in the breeze and wraps around his face causing the thugs to burst out laughing, thus bolstering their morale.

 

I'd have to check to make sure this doesn't have any balance issues (I just came up with it off of the top of my head), but it could work. I mean, all skills have some kind of negative effect if failed by large amounts (breaking the lock from a failed lockpicking roll, getting a drink tossed in your face from a failed seduction, and twisting your ankle for flubbing acrobatics) so why wouldn't PRE attacks work the same way? Lets face it, people say some pretty corny stuff when they try to act tough and it's totally believable that sometimes people take it as a joke rather than a threat.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Pre Attacks

 

No "maybe" about it, you could do that if you wanted to. That completely misses the point that by default there is no down side to a failed PRE attack. Suggesting house rules doesn't change that. See Sean's post above.

[dmjalund]

Re: Pre Attacks

 

is there a downside to a POST attack?

 

 

 

 

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pre Attacks

 

There can be downsides to blown PRE Attacks.

 

I had a guy once throw an 8d PRE Attack.

 

He rolled five 1's and three 2's.

 

The Agents just laughed at him and shot him.

 

Well, OK, the laughter was hurtful, but they were always going to shoot him...

 

EDIT - as I see others have pointed out!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pre Attacks

 

Sean ... Could you tell us what you really think? Don't hold back this time. .

 

What can I tell you, I see a thread where everyone is agreeing and something just clicks

[griffinman01]

Re: Pre Attacks

 

It seems to me that PRE attacks should be treated more like Strength contests rather than a mental attack. In other words, rather than assuming a target value you actually have the target (setting the target at 30 PRE) roll the appropriate dice for his presence and use that as the target value. That would put a bit more randomness into the equation and make it so that people with an equal presence could actually intimidate each other.

 

Then you can implement some kind of downside. Something like what I outlined before where if you fail a PRE attack by 10 (you roll 15 and the target rolls a 25) it's as if you got hit with the attack instead, making you miss a half phase.

[Greywind]

Re: Pre Attacks

 

What can I tell you' date=' I see a thread where everyone is agreeing and something just clicks [/quote']

 

So you're contrary by nature?