Lex Luthor Is Worse Than Useless

[Clonus]

You know, the standard variant on the default "Our World But..." setting is the one where gadgeteers accelerate our technological advance.

 

But what about the other option?

 

Consider the many ways technology can go wrong, or be made to go wrong when supers are added to the mix. Networked computers invite the spontaneous generation of skynets, and can be exploited by people with electrical control powers. Radio and telephone can be mediums of transmission for mind control music. For every hundred thousand people one kills with a nuclear weapon, you'll have one survivor with an origin and a lot of anger issues. Godzilla eats nuclear power plants.

 

So maybe the result of living in a comic book universe isn't just a lot of isolated gadgets that don't have much impact on day to day life. The potential risks involved in certain technologies might lead to a world in which the application of things like telecommunications, atomic power, and GM foods are actively retarded because they live in a world in which the wildest, most paranoid predictions of the resulting dangers are guaranteed to come true without the development of much more comprehensive safeguards to manage the risks. And of course the stereotypical motivation of the mad scientist is frustration that the public and the establishment fear the consequences of their research in advance.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Lex Luthor Is Worse Than Useless

 

You know, this could be one of the more genre-appropriate rationalizations for why super-class technology doesn't make its way out into the general public. The authorities, and the supers themselves, actively restrain its dissemination for fear of it being exploited by science-based villains, or of unintended origin-spawning events.

[Hermit]

Re: Lex Luthor Is Worse Than Useless

 

You know' date=' this could be one of the more genre-appropriate rationalizations for why super-class technology doesn't make its way out into the general public. The authorities, and the supers themselves, actively restrain its dissemination for fear of it being exploited by science-based villains, or of unintended origin-spawning events.[/quote']

 

I seem to recall this subject being touched on in High Tech Enemies. Though it wasn't as specific, it did mention offerings for secret tech wars and so on that would help suggest why the best stuff was in the hands of so few.

 

Frankly, I think Mechanon would be plenty of reason for the government to discourage AI creation

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Lex Luthor Is Worse Than Useless

 

It's not such a stretch, either, considering how jealously major real-world governments guard the secrets of militarily-applicable tech.

[Grailknight]

Re: Lex Luthor Is Worse Than Useless

 

I'd think the roots are in public safety.

 

Most of the inventions are simply not reliable enough or too delicate/maintenance intensive for the market. Also remember the sector of the population constantly seeking a Darwin Award. We live in a world where people need written instructions and warning on not using blowdryers in the shower, texting while driving and drying pets in the microwave. Giving those people flying cars, fusion power units and nanotech ....... irrationally optomistic at best and diabolically antisocial in most cases.

 

Law schools and Medical schools would be happy tho.

[Cassandra]

Re: Lex Luthor Is Worse Than Useless

 

There is the cost involved in cutting edge technology, and the time it takes to produce a produce ready for consumers.

 

Consider the computer. Forty years ago they were bulky machines that were built for specific uses in business. They lack flexibility, and there was no real interaction between computer systems.

 

Ultimately the concept of a shared database was matched with an operating system cheap enough and advanced enough to be operating from people's home, and that opened the floodgates to the computer revolution. Once that happened competition encouraged new developments in the technology.

 

Plus the government is still working on the rail guns.

[phydaux]

Re: Lex Luthor Is Worse Than Useless

 

IIRC not just anyone can climb into a suit of Iron Man's spare armor and start knocking down skyscrapers. The armor reads & reacts to your thoughts, but you have to have the right kind of brain or the armor can't read it.

 

Armor that a trained normal, or "agent," can use is much less powerful than even sidekick/teen hero class power armor.

[wcw43921]

Re: Lex Luthor Is Worse Than Useless

 

If I Remember Correctly, there have been several times in the comics when other individuals besides Tony Stark have worn the armor and used it effectively. James Rhodes was the first, during Tony's second bout with alcoholism. He did so well with it that Tony let him keep the armor--"Whoever wears the armor is Iron Man."

 

There was another time that Tony was incapacitated (shot by a mentally disturbed former lover as I recall) and Rhodes not only took over as Iron Man, but as head of Stark Industries. An emergency led him to call upon several of Stark's old friends and he put them in several spare suits to meet the threat (I'm afraid I don't remember what it was). The only one I remember having any problems was Bethany Cabe, who complained her breasts were being squashed by the chest plate.

 

It's possible they have changed it so that only Stark's cybernetic impulses can activate the armor--it's been a while since I've read any Marvel comics. But I think the biggest obstacle to someone else using Iron Man armor and technology is the cost. For what a suit of Iron Man armor costs a nation could likely buy a squadron of the latest fighter planes--perhaps even two. (Of course, they could also spend the money on improving the quality of life for its citizens, but that's no way for a nation to earn respect. ) It would almost be easier to just steal an Iron Man suit from Stark Industries than to steal or appropriate the money to build one.

 

Just my thoughts on the subject. Take them as you will.

[sinanju]

Re: Lex Luthor Is Worse Than Useless

 

I'd think the roots are in public safety.

 

Most of the inventions are simply not reliable enough or too delicate/maintenance intensive for the market.

 

I'm reminded of a scene or two in PROTECTOR by Larry Niven. Pak Protectors are superhumanly intelligent, and I mean SUPER intelligent. Humans Protectors (we're the mutant descendants of the Pak) even more so. They're all incredibly long-lived--thousands of years, assuming they don't get killed by violence or starve to death for lack of motivation...which is how most Protectors die.

 

Protectors never developed computers because they don't need them. They don't build automation into their machinery either. They can predict and prevent most problems, and improvise and adapt for those they can't foresee or can't stop. Their weapons and tools and machinery are designed for use by Protectors. Any other Protector is expected to be able to grasp the purpose, function and limits of any device at a glance--and they can.

 

If this is how comic book superscience works, it's no surprise that almost none of it reaches the market. Maybe Reed Richards (or whoever) can keep his gadgets working, but certainly no ordinary human can be expected to manage it, much less figure out how to build them in large numbers so that they can be produced and sold at a profit, or made reliable enough for anyone to bother with them.

[phydaux]

Re: Lex Luthor Is Worse Than Useless

 

And in all those cases the person in question was a "latent" super. I's like in Marvel how everyone except Spiderman is either a mutant or a latent mutant, or how everyone in DC has "the meta-gene." That's why Super Surem doesn't work on everyone, or else every army would be full of Captain Americas.

 

IIRC even Champions Universe 5th ed touched on this.

 

But to a point you've just got to say "it's genera." You don't ever see Hal Jordan saying "Wow, this looks like a tough fight. Superman, take my spare Green Lantern ring. It should help..."

[Tigereye]

Re: Lex Luthor Is Worse Than Useless

 

Just to summarize, there are several plausible explanations as to why higher technology items have not seen public use:

 

1) "Not Ready For Prime Time" - Sheer sophistication: The systems are not ready for mass production; they require almost being hand-built at this point, or require tooling or synthesizing just as complex - or more so - than they are. This is actually common in real life - lots of inventions languish for lack of the ability to profitably or even feasibly mass-produce them. I currently recall recent experiments in superconductors that have a small percentage of a carefully sintered bulk material actually having a critical temperature above 0 degrees Celsius, which would be a huge breakthrough; the problem is identifying and separating that part of the material from the rest of the bulk without destroying it.

 

2) Materials issues: The technology involved requires rare minerals/alloys, or those strictly controlled by law. Kelvarite, questionite, neutronium, or even real but man-made materials like plutonium etc.

 

3) Public Hazards: The government prevents the public from possessing these due to the strong chance that someone will negligently or maliciously use them to cause damage, possibly fatally. Frequently quoted as a good reason not to have flying cars until we can perfect automatic "flying lanes" and fail-safe mechanisms.

 

4) Military Secret: Possession of the technology is in the hands of the military, who are unwilling to promulgate it lest potential adversaries get a hold of it. Whether or not the military in question is itself an opponent of the PC's society is another matter...

 

5) Actually Alien Technology: Cannot be reproduced (at least on a mass scale) as Terrans don't understand some or all of its underlying physical principles. Whether or not humanity ever will may also be in question - perhaps it requires thinking in more than four dimensions (three spacial plus time) or something.

 

6) Near-irreproducable Technology: As above, but the result of serendipitous discovery that, as of yet, cannot be copied. (If multiple copies of the technology exist, it's due to repeated attempts to reproduced, with many failures in between successful ones.) This is sort of a subset of 1) and 5) above, but includes the possibility of the original discoverer coming upon the ability to reproduce it in a larger scale by understanding its principles better, or giving it to someone who can reproduce it more effectively. (A GM could use it to represent a current technology where it's not in wide use as of yet.)

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Lex Luthor Is Worse Than Useless

 

@ Tigereye: Repped!

 

ISTR seeing something on "How it's Made" showing how computer chips are made. At one point they mentioned that a significant number of the chips on every "plate" were discarded as nonfunctional. Perhaps supertech works to such fine tolerances that even with the best equipment available, only one in a thousand examples actually functions properly. Now imagine that this is an item that, when it functions improperly, is most likely not going to do anything, however, there i a large probability that the item may unexpectedly self-destruct, at the very least causing death/injury/property damage.

 

Sometimes the reward is worth the risk ("Scientists Pronounce Cure for Cancer!") and sometimes it isn't ("Blob-like Creature Escapes Federal Disease Testing Facility and devours 12").

 

ETA:

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Lex Luthor Is Worse Than Useless

 

Dang! That wasn't it either!

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Lex Luthor Is Worse Than Useless

 

Relevant: real-world kitchen science.

 

 

Now imagine it's about making your own supersoldier serum or some such?

[Andrew_A]

Re: Lex Luthor Is Worse Than Useless

 

There was a book for White Wolf's Aberrant (Aberrant Year One) that, very briefly, discussed several different rationales for why nobody mass markets supertech. Amongst the reasons were:

 

No one wants it. Your death ray can destroy a city, but governments already have nukes so what good is it?

 

It's too advanced. If no one but a hyper-intelligent Doctor Doom or Reed Richards can figure it out or figure out how to build one, then what good is it?

 

Only works for superhumans. If you need psionic powers or The Power Cosmic to operate it and the only source of those things are superhumans, then what good is it?

 

It has undesirable side effects. If your city-wide freeze ray eats several million dollars worth of diamonds each time you use it, then it's not worth it.

 

It occurs to me as I type this that rationale number two would be a good justification for insanity. Maybe Mad Scientists are mad because they saw something Man Was Not Meant To Know and now they can build supertech. Or maybe building supertech drove them mad in the first place and no sane person can replicate their tech. When someone tries they either can't figure it out or they go mad from the attempt. Then the governments of the world would have no choice but to ban supertech, because they don't want to create another Ultra Humanite or Dr. Sivana or whoever.

 

BTW, check out Wild Talents by Arc Dream. They don't discuss supertech per se, but they do give several very good reasons for why superheroes don't change the world.

[psyber624]

Re: Lex Luthor Is Worse Than Useless

 

Another theory that I have adopted for my games is the concept of "super science" as another form of magic (I know I got this from somewhere but can't remember where exactly). Basically it means that when a Superscientist invents something he is accessing some sort of magic/mutant/whatever ability to allow his creation to function. Someone else, taking IDENTICAL blueprints and building an exact duplicate of his invention would not be able to make it work at all. In many cases an examination of the invention by others in the field would have them swearing that it cannot actually work, except that it does. The inventions is repairable and possibly even modifiable, but it cannot be recreated (except possibly by the original inventor.)

[ayinde]

Re: Lex Luthor Is Worse Than Useless

 

sounds like mage

[Andrew_A]

Re: Lex Luthor Is Worse Than Useless

 

sounds like mage

 

In GURPS: Mage, they did very briefly discuss crossing Mage with Supers.

[Zen Archer]

Re: Lex Luthor Is Worse Than Useless

 

sounds like mage

 

If memory serves, the RPG Godlike (a ww2 supers game) had something similar for the gadgeteer types.

[Clonus]

Re: Lex Luthor Is Worse Than Useless

 

Another theory that I have adopted for my games is the concept of "super science" as another form of magic (I know I got this from somewhere but can't remember where exactly).

 

Wild Cards, I suspect. But it was actually inspired by the game mechanics for gadgeteering in Superworld, which pioneered the modular gadget pool.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Lex Luthor Is Worse Than Useless

 

If I Remember Correctly, there have been several times in the comics when other individuals besides Tony Stark have worn the armor and used it effectively. James Rhodes was the first, during Tony's second bout with alcoholism. He did so well with it that Tony let him keep the armor--"Whoever wears the armor is Iron Man."

 

There was another time that Tony was incapacitated (shot by a mentally disturbed former lover as I recall) and Rhodes not only took over as Iron Man, but as head of Stark Industries. An emergency led him to call upon several of Stark's old friends and he put them in several spare suits to meet the threat (I'm afraid I don't remember what it was). The only one I remember having any problems was Bethany Cabe, who complained her breasts were being squashed by the chest plate.

 

It's possible they have changed it so that only Stark's cybernetic impulses can activate the armor--it's been a while since I've read any Marvel comics. But I think the biggest obstacle to someone else using Iron Man armor and technology is the cost. For what a suit of Iron Man armor costs a nation could likely buy a squadron of the latest fighter planes--perhaps even two. (Of course, they could also spend the money on improving the quality of life for its citizens, but that's no way for a nation to earn respect. ) It would almost be easier to just steal an Iron Man suit from Stark Industries than to steal or appropriate the money to build one.

 

Just my thoughts on the subject. Take them as you will.

Repeated use of the mentally controlled Iron Man armor gave Rhodes migraines, which was part of why he gave up being Iron Man at one point. I believe that remained an issue until he got the War Machine armor.

[sinanju]

Re: Lex Luthor Is Worse Than Useless

 

Wild Cards' date=' I suspect. But it was actually inspired by the game mechanics for gadgeteering in Superworld, which pioneered the modular gadget pool.[/quote']

 

Yeah, the very first Wild Cards novel had an appendix in the back, which purported to be a report based in that world. One of the things it mentioned was that a number of gadgeteers' devices had been examined, and none of them really worked as described. An anti-gravity belt might have a SCHEMATIC for an anti-gravity circuit inside it, but no actual circuitry. Or it might contain a random assemblage of electronics (or an apple core, hairpin, and a razor blade for that matter). In either case, it only worked for the creator.

[psyber624]

Re: Lex Luthor Is Worse Than Useless

 

Haven't read Wild Cards, although I have heard about it in various posts on here. Ill have to pick it up sometime and give it a read.

[Greywind]

Re: Lex Luthor Is Worse Than Useless

 

They're fun. I'm missing a few of the original run and only have one of the later books.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: Lex Luthor Is Worse Than Useless

 

i've rad some of the original novels,not bad