Killing Attacks in 6th Edition

[Hyper-Man]

There are warnings about unbalanced powers being created by Advantage stacking.  +12 Stun Mod is not an issue with the +1/4 price of the Advantage or an issue with how Killing Attacks work; it is an issue of a munchkin power build, nothing more, nothing less.

From: http://www.herogames.com/forums/index.php?/topic/51110-wacky-attack/?p=1250453

 

 

Re: Wacky attack

 

25 The Munchkinator!: RKA 1 point (standard effect: 1 BODY, 42 STUN), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Armor Piercing (x2; +1), Autofire (5 shots; +1 1/2), +40 Increased STUN Multiplier (+10) (75 Active Points); Side Effects (GM slaps player upside head for attempting to use such a silly power build; -1), Activation Roll 14-, Jammed (GM smells cheese in the air; -1) - END=0

 

Don't feed the Munchkins.

[bigbywolfe]

then why not leave the +1 stun mod at +1/2, as originally designed? If the point of the KA was to generate body, not stun, this should not have happened.

Because +1/2 is over priced for a single use of it.  If there is one thing you should know by now it's that pointing out that something CAN be abused does not automatically mean it is unbalanced in Hero.  I can make horribly abusive builds with AoE and Piercing and Constant and a dozen others and that does not mean any one of those Advantages are mis-priced on their own.

[Sean Waters]

Killing attacks are a bit of a Marmite ability.  For those not familiar with Marmite, it is a yeast extract based...look, take a dark beer and boil it until it sticks to everything.  Point is you either love it or hate it.

 

If you want a sort of realistic 'shooting people' system, go for your basic killing attack and use the hit location rules.  Basically you are multiplying three volatile values together, so the result can be virtually nothing or awesome.  That is a perfect match for cinematic reality: the same bullet can kill a background character but just crease a hero.

 

Trouble is it can also crease a background character and kill a hero.  Dice are not excellent script writers.

 

There is not a right answer to the question of whether KAs work 'properly', because everyone has a different idea of what they want.  The trick is to recognise what killing attacks are and what you can expect from them, and use them when appropriate to the character and campaign.

[Tasha]

The real question was are KA's balanced against Normal Attacks when not using the Hit Location Chart.

In 5e As you can see from the Math KA's could pump out a devistating amount of Damage. A lot of minmaxers took the attack even when it wasn't warrented due to that volitility and used the attack in situations and Genres that really didn't fit those kind of attacks. So the Stun Multiplier was Nerfed in 6e which made KA's in Superheroic Games more about doing body than trying to hit the Stun Lottery.

They kept the Hit Location Chart as it was, which means that Heroic Games can continue to use KA's as their attack of Choice and still have the badguys fall unconscious instead of dead.

[Hugh Neilson]

The real question was are KA's balanced against Normal Attacks when not using the Hit Location Chart.

 

In 5e As you can see from the Math KA's could pump out a devistating amount of Damage. A lot of minmaxers took the attack even when it wasn't warrented due to that volitility and used the attack in situations and Genres that really didn't fit those kind of attacks. So the Stun Multiplier was Nerfed in 6e which made KA's in Superheroic Games more about doing body than trying to hit the Stun Lottery.

 

They kept the Hit Location Chart as it was, which means that Heroic Games can continue to use KA's as their attack of Choice and still have the badguys fall unconscious instead of dead.

 

The Hit Location rules also modify normal damage, making that more volatile as well.

[dmjalund]

Kind of assumes that noone would want to use the hit locations in a superheroic game

[Grailknight]

Having tried it, I strongly recommend that you not use the Hit Location Chart for a Supers game. Itt's less volatile than the pre-6th Stun Lotto for Killing Damage but Normal Damage is skewed.

[dmjalund]

Having tried it, I strongly recommend that you not use the Hit Location Chart for a Supers game. Itt's less volatile than the pre-6th Stun Lotto for Killing Damage but Normal Damage is skewed.

even if we try to tone down the StunX to match the d3 StunX?

[Tasha]

The Hit Location rules also modify normal damage, making that more volatile as well.

I think that the Hit Location Chart sucks for Normal Damage. So I haven't used for normal attacks for going on 20 years.

 

I remember trying the Hit Location chart with a Champions game for KA's only. It was OK, but the Genre isn't really about that kind of "realism" so it felt odd.

[Sean Waters]

Normal attacks vs killing attacks then, vanilla versions of each...

 

Well...theoretically the d3 stun multiplier means that the range of damage is almost identical for N and K attacks for any given point expenditure: 15 points gets you 3d6 N (range 3-18 Stun, 0-6 Body) , or 1d6 K (range 3-18 stun, 1-6 Body).  The the actual results for killing attacks will show a wider variance though.  This is simply because you will (almost) always be rolling fewer dice for a K attack than a N attack, and this becoming more of a factor as DC increases.

 

It is worth noting at this point that it is not just the stun that is more variable, but the Body too.  In superheroic games, it is often the case that Body damage is largely irrelevant: even high rolls will probably not get through defences, but it depends to an extent on how you build the characters.  In heroic games, volatile body damage can kill a character, and if it does not kill a character, in the more contemporary games it can take a long time to heal.  Once you get up to reasonably high DCs (say around 12) the chances of a high Body N attack are really pretty low, whereas the chances of a high Body K attack are rather higher.

 

The reverse is of course true: LOW Body (and stun) rolls are also much more likely.

 

In my experience the dice tend to act up.  I know that, over time, the rolls will tend toward the average, but that simply means the little buggers can roll massive damage against mooks and ping off the dangerous opponents.  My experience of K attacks in superheroic games is that they can be frustrating both for players and the GM.  Your experience may be very different.  In heroic games I'm far less worried about all the variations in damage because:

 

a) my expectations of heroic games is rather different to superheroic games and I expect the possibility of death or serious injury (or even a one-shot KO) to be higher, and

you roll less dice in heroic games so even unusually high rolls do less damage to the game (even if they do more to the characters).

 

Of course part of the problem is that Hero seeks balance in all things (for a given value of balance): what that means is that an attack that does more Body on average will need to do less of something else.  K attacks do more Body on average, they do less Stun on average.  The problem to my mind is that averages can be misleading and K attacks are realistically able to do MORE stun than a N attack - by which I mean that there is a reasonable probability of that happening - and when they don't they tend to 'ping' (at least they do in superheroic games) - which is why they feel a bit all or nothing and can be very frustrating.

 

Know what you are getting into though, build your campaign and characters consciously (conscious of the effects and vagaries of the mechanics, not 'whilst awake') and you should be fine.  The balance is close enough for government work - when the government is, indeed, working.

[Grailknight]

even if we try to tone down the StunX to match the d3 StunX?

 

Honestly, my comment only applies to the standard Hit Location Chart. If you have a modifed version, then testing is required.

 

In our experience with the standard chart, KA are fine. The average damage is actually less because the chance of the 5x result has been reduced(10:216) and the chance for 1x was increased slightly. The 4x chance is slightly higher but in general the results have been pushed toward the middle of the bell curve. 

 

The Stun on Normal attacks is given its own version of the Stun Lotto by the hit location chart and becomes much more volatile at Superheroic DC's. The 2x chance, while rare, is far more likely than the odds of ever rolling the equivalent total on actual dice and can give some results that are actually impossible to roll straight.

 

The 1.5x multiple is actually more problematic. It yields a result that averages 5.25 stun per die and does it roughly on 25% of the damage rolls. All too often, the first strike of any combat was decisive as any attack in a 12DC campaign had a 25% chance of becoming 18DC.

 

The 1/2x multiple was just as common as 1.5 but was incredibly demoralizing. The multiplier is far more important than the roll of the DC dice as it guarantees the attack will have little to no effect with emphasis on the no effect end. 12DC characters, IME, laugh when struck by 6DC.

 

You also make the problem of luck even worse. One player per session will have his attacks bounce, another will get taken out by agents, a really dangerous villain will seem run of the mill while a joke villain becomes a world beater. If you and your PC's like more randomness this can be a good thing, but it makes planning a session's combat hard.

 

After 4 sessions and 6 combats (3-5 PC's and NPC"s per side) we gave using the chart for Normal damage but used it for Killing damage.

[Hugh Neilson]

If the characters have 400 points to spend, 12 to buy 8 PSL's against hit locations is pretty trivial - Behold - Captain Headshot!

[Vondy]

Kind of assumes that noone would want to use the hit locations in a superheroic game

 

They are optional rules because the default genre assumed by previous editions was a normative silver or bronze age superhero setting. They aren't appropriate for most mainstream "champions" games. Whether that assumption should be made in the present edition, which makes a clear attempt be less superhero-genre centered, or in light of the fact that there are grittier superheroic genres (often more street-level oriented) that are popular to play, is a separate question. The other option would be to have hit locations be the norm, but make a note that one should not use them for certain genres and styles of play.

[Vondy]

Honestly, my comment only applies to the standard Hit Location Chart. If you have a modifed version, then testing is required.

 

In our experience with the standard chart, KA are fine. The average damage is actually less because the chance of the 5x result has been reduced(10:216) and the chance for 1x was increased slightly. The 4x chance is slightly higher but in general the results have been pushed toward the middle of the bell curve. 

 

The Stun on Normal attacks is given its own version of the Stun Lotto by the hit location chart and becomes much more volatile at Superheroic DC's. The 2x chance, while rare, is far more likely than the odds of ever rolling the equivalent total on actual dice and can give some results that are actually impossible to roll straight.

 

The 1.5x multiple is actually more problematic. It yields a result that averages 5.25 stun per die and does it roughly on 25% of the damage rolls. All too often, the first strike of any combat was decisive as any attack in a 12DC campaign had a 25% chance of becoming 18DC.

 

The 1/2x multiple was just as common as 1.5 but was incredibly demoralizing. The multiplier is far more important than the roll of the DC dice as it guarantees the attack will have little to no effect with emphasis on the no effect end. 12DC characters, IME, laugh when struck by 6DC.

 

You also make the problem of luck even worse. One player per session will have his attacks bounce, another will get taken out by agents, a really dangerous villain will seem run of the mill while a joke villain becomes a world beater. If you and your PC's like more randomness this can be a good thing, but it makes planning a session's combat hard.

 

After 4 sessions and 6 combats (3-5 PC's and NPC"s per side) we gave using the chart for Normal damage but used it for Killing damage.

 

I tend to avoid hit locations in normative superheroic games. however, the deadly agents problem can be solved by only allowing "named characters" or main cast, major villains and henchment, etc use the hit location chart. Its okay, in my opinion, if mooks get shafted.

[Sean Waters]

One problem in superheroic games with a Hit Location chart in Hero is that, assuming you are allowed to aim, you are swapping skill for power: someone with a decent OCV martial artist or blaster can often hit the low DCV Brick type in the head, effectively hugely increasing their damage output.  That is not balanced as putting in the hit location chart changes the cost/utility of OCV and DCV.  (It is much less of a problem in heroic games because the CV difference is usually much less.)

 

Then you wind up with people buying +DCV only to negate aimed attacks, and you are running into logical inconsistency.  The hit location chart was not designed for use with superheroic games.  that does not mean you can not use it, just that you should be aware of the consequences.

[Chris Goodwin]

Not only was the Hit Location Chart not designed for superheroic games, it didn't even exist when Champions originally came out.  It was added for the heroic level games.  It is highly recommended to not use it with superheroic games.  

[JasonPacker]

One problem in superheroic games with a Hit Location chart in Hero is that, assuming you are allowed to aim, you are swapping skill for power: someone with a decent OCV martial artist or blaster can often hit the low DCV Brick type in the head, effectively hugely increasing their damage output.  That is not balanced as putting in the hit location chart changes the cost/utility of OCV and DCV.  (It is much less of a problem in heroic games because the CV difference is usually much less.)

 

Then you wind up with people buying +DCV only to negate aimed attacks, and you are running into logical inconsistency.  The hit location chart was not designed for use with superheroic games.  that does not mean you can not use it, just that you should be aware of the consequences.

 

 

Not only was the Hit Location Chart not designed for superheroic games, it didn't even exist when Champions originally came out.  It was added for the heroic level games.  It is highly recommended to not use it with superheroic games.  

 

Those of us who played the older versions probably remember when hit locations were added, but Sean's post above is the first substantive explanation for why it might be dangerous/genre-breaking to do so, and I'm still digesting the consequences. It would almost demand sectional defenses for superheroic games, to provide the Brick with an easy means of having a hard head. Also probably needs some GM oversight on preventing PSLs from eliminating more than half the aimed shot penalty for location.

[Tasha]

Though you could probably still use the Hit Location charts for Killing attacks if you don't include Called Shots (which IS it's own Optional Rule).

[Lucius]

Just a flesh wound!

No Hit Locations, Custom Modifier (Only vs Head or Vitals hits; +1/2) (15 Active Points); Nonpersistent (-1/4) Real Cost 12

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wants No Hit Locations, meaning, no locations can be hit!

[NuSoardGraphite]

Honestly, my comment only applies to the standard Hit Location Chart. If you have a modifed version, then testing is required.

 

In our experience with the standard chart, KA are fine. The average damage is actually less because the chance of the 5x result has been reduced(10:216) and the chance for 1x was increased slightly. The 4x chance is slightly higher but in general the results have been pushed toward the middle of the bell curve. 

 

The Stun on Normal attacks is given its own version of the Stun Lotto by the hit location chart and becomes much more volatile at Superheroic DC's. The 2x chance, while rare, is far more likely than the odds of ever rolling the equivalent total on actual dice and can give some results that are actually impossible to roll straight.

 

The 1.5x multiple is actually more problematic. It yields a result that averages 5.25 stun per die and does it roughly on 25% of the damage rolls. All too often, the first strike of any combat was decisive as any attack in a 12DC campaign had a 25% chance of becoming 18DC.

 

The 1/2x multiple was just as common as 1.5 but was incredibly demoralizing. The multiplier is far more important than the roll of the DC dice as it guarantees the attack will have little to no effect with emphasis on the no effect end. 12DC characters, IME, laugh when struck by 6DC.

 

You also make the problem of luck even worse. One player per session will have his attacks bounce, another will get taken out by agents, a really dangerous villain will seem run of the mill while a joke villain becomes a world beater. If you and your PC's like more randomness this can be a good thing, but it makes planning a session's combat hard.

 

After 4 sessions and 6 combats (3-5 PC's and NPC"s per side) we gave using the chart for Normal damage but used it for Killing damage.

You applied defenses before applying the Hit Location modifier, right?

[ned-kogar]

... you are swapping skill for power: someone with a decent OCV martial artist or blaster can often hit the low DCV Brick type in the head, effectively hugely increasing their damage output.

 

This is true. We used Hit Locations in a 300 pt (5th ed) supers campaign - but one that was very much 'normal people with powers' in a world with about the same tech level as we have. We also allowed each point by which a hit roll was made add to or subtract from the Hit Location roll.

 

The aim wasn't to make things bloodier, but to make players behave more like untrained, powerful individuals trying to make a difference, rather than 4-colour demigods. Faced with eg. RKA laser eye beams, the players would be pinned down in fear of a lucky headshot and would have to be quite innovative and tactical. It also allowed modern non-sci-fi weapons - in the hands of a skilled user - be more of a threat.

 

In many ways it made play more heroic, because the jeopardy was higher. And they soon signed up for training to get their 'professional adventurer' skills up to scratch.

 

Incidentally, we also decided that Hardened automatically conferred No Hit Locations (and, similarly, a level of Armor Piercing would negate that benefit), leading to

a very nice little arms race.

[Sean Waters]

One problem with hit locations as well as the KA mechanic is that you have a volatile number total, by which I mean a 3d6 KA can roll 18 Body: that is quite nasty in any event, but if you then apply the 2 Body for a head shot (after defences, of course) an be instantly fatal, depending on your defence levels (and if it is not then a shot to a non-sensitive body part probably has little effect).  I know 18 only comes up 1 time in 216 in theory, but you know that you can roll four 18s in a single game session, sometimes.

 

I don't like the idea that a lucky/unlucky roll can take out a PC in one go.  I mean; realistic, possibly, but not great fun.

 

I would recommend that the way to create jeopardy is to carefully control the defences: a hard cap of (say) 15 allows for some dame to occasionally get through, whereas a hard cap of 13 allows for a good proportion of attacks to do Body and a hard cap of 10 allows for most hits to cause some body.  However, with 10 resistant defence, you are never going to have a single shot from a 3d6 attack do more than 8 Body.

 

If you want more peril then I would recommend building certain opponents in a particular way, for example giving them an extra dice of damage if they take an extra phase.  That way the big bad is potentially very nasty but can not routinely kill PCs with one shot.

 

Equally you could give PCs even lower defences but allow them to boost them in certain situations (The Shield, for example, can define a 60 degree arc where she has +10 resistant defence, on top of her overall 6 resistant defence.).

 

The other aspect of hit location rules is that it is an extra step: you need to roll, and do some maths.  Not a long time, once you are used to it, but it does slow the overall combat down.  Worth thinking about.