Special Powers & Talents in Frameworks - What's your GM Ruling?

[bigdamnhero]

The rules state that buying Special Powers or Talents in a Framework requires GM permission. So I'm curious how strict/lenient you are (or your GM is) with this permission?

 

There's certainly room for abuse, especially with things like Skills and out-of-combat powers, as they basically allow the player to get them for free/cheap and only swap them in when needed. Similarly, being able to have Mental Defense "Only When I'm Fighting Mentalists" is kinda muchkiny. But on the other hand, it makes sense that Dr. Awesome's Gadget VPP could include a GPS (Bump of Direction), Nightvision Goggles (Enhanced Senses) and a camcorder (Eidetic Memory).

 

When do you allow this and when do you disallow it? Does it differ by genre or power level? Just looking for opinions. Cheers.

[Uthanar]

Depends on applicability of the Power/Talent to the Special Effect. 

[Christougher]

In addition to what Uthanar said, the other question is, 'Does it break the game?'   GPS- no.  Nightvision-unlikely, but the times he'd want to use it, he's likely to also want those points in something else, so it balances.  Camcorder-Tough call.  I'd say 'no' most of the time, but in the event of a mystery or event they might miss something of, it's a lot more dangerous.

 

Senses and Mental Powers really need a magnifying glass, because it's easy use them to break a mystery or adventure, even accidentally.

 

Chris.

[Grailknight]

In general, I tend to lean toward strict rulings at character creation and will relax somewhat as the campaign matures. Sometimes it's a natural growth for a PC concept but more a buildup of trust between players and GM. I also pick and choose among the Special powers if they match a Character concept.

 

Enhanced Senses and Extra limbs will generally be allowed on Metamorphs and probably KB resistance.

 

Skills, luck, END reserve, regeneration anfd the spot defenses are straight no's. I have been known to relent when the spot defenses are added to Resistance defense in a Multipower but never a VPP. 

 

Duplication and its cousin Multiform(which I make a Special Power for my campaign) will be allowed in VPP's with restrictions if a character concept calls for them.

[Sean Waters]

It seems a bit mad that a gadgeteer can not rustle up a pair of sunglasses when he can manage to create an interdimensional teleporter.  He can build a ray that transforms clothing into honey, but can't build a camera to film it on.  He can make a nanorobot that can heal any injury but not regenerate any injury.  He can build a gynoid with any skill, but not a lock pick gun. Oh, the humanity!

 

I kind of see why we have a Special powers section, but I also kind of don't.  Not any more.  Stick a FSTOP by the power, by all means (GM permission required to use in a framework), but it just makes too little sense to keep on living.  I know we will all run off giggling with the special powers if you take the child locks off and do abominable things in frameworks, but if we blow the world up, we know it won't be there to play in any more.

 

Trust us.

[bigdamnhero]

Depends on applicability of the Power/Talent to the Special Effect. 

Fair enough, but that applies to any power in a framework, right?

 

@ Grailknight: Makes sense. I've occassionally used VPPs as a way to model characters whose power set changes (ie fire powers one phase, ice powers the next), and I group slots together as packages (ie all the fire powers are active this phase, all the ice powers next phase). So in that context the Special Powers & Talents aren't really optional.

 

It seems a bit mad that a gadgeteer can not rustle up a pair of sunglasses when he can manage to create an interdimensional teleporter. 

Exactly!

 

I kind of see why we have a Special powers section, but I also kind of don't.  Not any more.  Stick a FSTOP by the power, by all means (GM permission required to use in a framework), but it just makes too little sense to keep on living.  I know we will all run off giggling with the special powers if you take the child locks off and do abominable things in frameworks, but if we blow the world up, we know it won't be there to play in any more.

Well to be fair, the rules don't say you can't do it - just that it requires GM approval.

[bigdamnhero]

The player that got me thinking about this pointed out that most of the Talents, etc. in question fall under what I call the "Radio Shack Exemption" anyway. Rather than worrying about statting out mundane things like flashlights and so forth, I don't make characters pay points for minor items provided:

• It’s not a weapon,
• It’s built on 15 Active Points or less,
• It costs 5 Real Points or less, and
• It is cheaply available at Radio Shack or someplace like it.

So it seems reasonable that anything falling under that exemption should be able to go into a gadget pool without too much worry.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I'm pretty lenient about it.  As long as it makes sense for the character to have it, and it makes sense why it's in the Framework and not bought normally (makes sense in a way other than, "Buying it outright is too expensive!" ) I tend to allow it.  The main abuse of it I watch for is the "Hey, I've got a few extra points, so I'll stick a slot with 60 points of Power Defense in my attack Multipower so I can Abort to it!" 

[mhd]

How else would you build BraveStarr? No Eyes of the Hawk?

[Christougher]

The player that got me thinking about this pointed out that most of the Talents, etc. in question fall under what I call the "Radio Shack Exemption" anyway. Rather than worrying about statting out mundane things like flashlights and so forth, I don't make characters pay points for minor items provided:

• It’s not a weapon,
• It’s built on 15 Active Points or less,
• It costs 5 Real Points or less, and
• It is cheaply available at Radio Shack or someplace like it.

So it seems reasonable that anything falling under that exemption should be able to go into a gadget pool without too much worry.

 

Not sure the GPS qualifies for that last yet...

 

Chris.

[Hyper-Man]

I guess I'll be the lone voice of dissent.

 

Special Powers lose their 'specialness' if they can be placed in a framework. 

 

The best argument I can make is to post a link to my version of a very familiar character:  Superman.

All of his 'super senses' except for 2* are built outside of a framework at a cost of 42 real points.

* Clairsentience (a standard power - therefore rules legal for framework).

* Overall Levels (that can be used as Enhanced Perception) This is the one GM permission required aspect of the entire build.  I think it's balanced by what other arguably more powerful abilities can't be used at the same time.  Also, they are the most expensive Levels of any kind in the game (12 points each in 6e, so 60 active only gets +5 Levels).

 

Re: Talents

I personally dislike that Talents have been promoted to their own distinct status between Skills and Powers.  6e states they can be built using Powers but that they aren't actually powers. I personally would never allow them to be put inside a framework or have additional Advantages or Limitations applied to the base Talent as if it were a base Power.  Start with the core Power/Skill they were constructed from and go from there.  They are just pre-built abilities like Spells or gadgets.  They are just 'Everyman Powers/Superskills'. 

 

Re: Flash Defense via mundane equipment like Sunglasses in a framework

For reasons similar to Enhanced Senses above (a viable alternative exists) I would require a player to use the Resistance Defense Power (formerly Force Field) to get Flash Defense inside of a Framework.

[Hyper-Man]

Also,

 

Giving the pass for the Gadget/Tech based sfx character but NOT the native power based sfx like Kryptonian just means that a GM is basing decisions on special effect which goes against one of the core concepts of HERO.  If the rule is good for a 'naturally' powered character like Superman it should be equally good for a 'tech' powered character like Iron Man (which I bet I could build a version of that would be 80% mechanically identical to my Superman with "not under red sunlight or near kryptonite" being traded out for OIHID).

[Tasha]

Most of the Talents were created using powers. If the Player really wants a talent in a Multipower or VPP why not just write the talent up using the powers. In most cases it's a fairly simple thing and should be just as expensive as the Talent (perhaps cheaper since you can add appropriate limitations on the power). For a Heroic Game I probably wouldn't sweat this too much. If it's a Superheroic game, I would be more insistant that they buy the talent using appropriate powers.

[Sean Waters]

The reasons that special powers are 'special' seem to be that

 

1. they contain exotic defences: the attacks that these powers relate to are only of any use if the defence is not too common, and the cost of the defence in a MP slot is too cheap.  Of course that is a criticism that can be leveled at MPs in general, because you can certainly put the ATTACK the defences relate to in a MP.

 

2. senses become meaningless if they are so cheap.  If you can switch between a whole bunch of different senses then being able to see electricity becomes less special.  Well, yes, but again this seems more of a criticism of frameworks than a justification for special powers.  The same logic applies to skills.  Why spend 50 points ifn skills if you can spend 10 and get any skill you want?  I mean there are some things that will be harder to do with any skill, one at a time, than a whole bunch of skills, but, even so, do we need a special powers category, or just a brief warning under 'skills as powers' that they do not mix well with frameworks.

 

3. regeneration is only needed when you have taken damage so you are getting it almost for free if it is in a MP.  Yes, fair enough.  What about Healing then?

 

I can go on.  I do.  I just don;t see the need for a special powers category at all.  It seems to just be there to keep stuff out of frameworks.

[Hyper-Man]

Active Points is the key issue.

 

Active Points?!  Yes.

 

Its the core reason behind all the issues discussed in this thread.  Heck, it's the reason Gliding was removed as its own separate power from Flight.  Enhanced Senses, Special Powers and Talents can ALL easily be described with a similar relationship to other core Powers (Clairsentience, Resistant Defense and other Powers).   Given the appropriate Limitation values the Real cost of nearly any Enhanced Sense, Special Power and Talent can be derived from another Standard Power.  THIS is the reason that they are not allowed in Frameworks.  Framework balance depends upon Active Cost, NOT Real Cost.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I'll put anything in a Framework.

 

If the concept fits, you MUST submit!

 

[Hyper-Man]

SPECIAL POWERS

1. Duplication
2. Endurance Reserve
3. Enhanced Senses - can be recreated with Limited Clairsentience
4. Extra Limbs
5. Flash Defense - can be recreated with Limited Resistant Defense
6. Knockback Resistance - can be recreated with Limited Damage Negation or Density Increase
7. Luck
8. Mental Defense - can be recreated with Limited Resistant Defense
9. Power Defense - can be recreated with Limited Resistant Defense
10. Regeneration - can be recreated with Limited Healing.  Both would require a Naked Advantage Trigger built outside of the Framework to be effective if the character is unconscious.
11. Skills

 

Out of the list above, only the effects of the following cannot be directly simulated by way of another Power with appropriate Limitations:

• Duplication - Already functions as a framework of sorts (violating the spirit of the 'no framework within a framework' rule)
• Endurance Reserve -  ditto
• Extra Limbs - Effectively an Adder for STR - allowing it for some and not others turns into a Special Effect based ruling.
• Luck - A unique and effectively Always On 'Karma' ability. A good enough reason for me to not be allowed in a Framework.
• Skills - Multiple alternatives to Frameworks exist for Skills like Computers & AI's, Skill Enhancers including the Universal variants introduced in APG1 (Universal Scientist or Scholar) which already function as a mini-framework.  Overall Levels are the only exception I would allow.

I would probably even allow the Lockout Limitation to be applied to any of the Special Powers.  The cost might end up close to that of allowing them in a Multipower but would always be more expensive than allowing them in a VPP due to minimum cost rules.

[ghost-angel]

Not sure the GPS qualifies for that last yet...

 

Chris.

 

Radioshack GPS: http://www.radioshack.com/family/index.jsp?s=A-StorePrice-RSK&categoryId=2032322&pg=1&searchSort=TRUE&retainProdsInSession=1

 

Yeah, GPS is now very easily available, and reasonably cheap. You can get a GPS unit for your car that costs less than my iPod. And that doesn't even count the Poor Mans's GPS "Geolocation/Geotag" in every Smartphone on the planet...

 

Personally, as long as it won't 1) Break the Campaign at hand (because sometimes what works in one game horribly ruins the next) and 2) Fits reasonalby within the SFX of the Framework I think adding Special Powers to Frameworks is just fine.

[bigdamnhero]

Hyper-Man: good point about Active Points; the fact that Talents effectively have their Limitations built in totally skews the AP cost! Hmm...simple solution might be to build "deconstructed" prefabs of all the talents as Tasha suggested.

 

Yeah, GPS is now very easily available, and reasonably cheap. You can get a GPS unit for your car that costs less than my iPod. And that doesn't even count the Poor Mans's GPS "Geolocation/Geotag" in every Smartphone on the planet...

I ran a convention game awhile back where the power suit character wanted his suit to do something clever (I don't remember exactly what). When I said his suit's computer couldn't do that, he just looked at me: "Dude, my freakin phone can do that!" And then showed me the ap.

I allowed it.

[Uthanar]

 "Dude, my freakin phone can do that!" And then showed me the ap.

 

 

This is one of the sources of my hate of smart phones and gaming. 

[Hyper-Man]

I am curious about this part "When I said his suit's computer couldn't do that".  Was the character actually built with a computer?  If not this was just an in game edit of a character (not a big deal since it was for a convention).  Not all power armor characters actually have AI interactive computers like Jarvis.  If this was intended for an ongoing campaign the character sheet probably needs a separate build to reflect it.

[Sean Waters]

Active Points is the key issue.

 

Active Points?!  Yes.

 

Its the core reason behind all the issues discussed in this thread.  Heck, it's the reason Gliding was removed as its own separate power from Flight.  Enhanced Senses, Special Powers and Talents can ALL easily be described with a similar relationship to other core Powers (Clairsentience, Resistant Defense and other Powers).   Given the appropriate Limitation values the Real cost of nearly any Enhanced Sense, Special Power and Talent can be derived from another Standard Power.  THIS is the reason that they are not allowed in Frameworks.  Framework balance depends upon Active Cost, NOT Real Cost.

 

 

The same argument applies to having a Blast and  Drain in a multipower, or, even more closely, a Blast and a NND BLast - the latter is specifically built from the former.  It is expensive to buy them both separately, obviously, but each would have more 'value' if you could not get it for a few extra points after the initial large outlay.  This seems like more of an argument against multipowers than for special powers.

[Grailknight]

First, frameworks can be abused that's what the GM is for. The most abusive build i've seen,(that wasn't intentional) was a perfectly legal VPP of 60 points for Characteristics only.

 

Second, the Special Powers are things that you generally only need  on rare occassions. They are also generally defensive powers and thus cheaper in Hero. This makes them easier to abuse with frameworks.

 

Third, they only require GM permission, they are not expressly forbidden so there obviously must be exceptions. These will vary from GM to GM and from character to character.

 

So yes, I would make exceptions on a case by case basis. Sometimes its part of a concept, sometimes its just a cheesy build. Reward one and forbid the other but EXPLAIN to the player why you made that ruling.

[Sean Waters]

I am curious about this part "When I said his suit's computer couldn't do that".  Was the character actually built with a computer?  If not this was just an in game edit of a character (not a big deal since it was for a convention).  Not all power armor characters actually have AI interactive computers like Jarvis.  If this was intended for an ongoing campaign the character sheet probably needs a separate build to reflect it.

 

 

It is hard to know what the specific trick was as the poster could not recall, but this comes down to GMing.  I read somewhere - might have been Hero, might not, an anecdote about a player convincing a GM that some explosive or other could be made from bee secretions.  I have no idea if that is an actual thing, but if the character is built with points in Demolitions, KS Apiology and SS Biochemistry, we have a bit of a dilemma; either those points go to waist if the GM simply rules 'No' (I mean - how many times do you get to combine those skills?) or the GM just accepts it and lets the character get on (of course in Hero you then have an explosive which you have not paid for - OK in a Heroic game, but...).

 

Similarly with modern technology: we don't have a problem if a player says "I'm going to jump into a car (I have TF: Cars) and drive it into the ravening werewolf" because we understand the concept.  We all know, basically, that driving a car is a thing, as is crashing it into something.  The fact that the player has not paid for a 12d6 physical EB with a 'car' focus probably won't even cross out minds because the idea is so familiar.  Ditto making a call from a local phone kiosk, or employing un-paid-for points of tunneling by getting on the subway.

 

If the phone trick was something like 'I send my GPS coordinates to a particular email address', well, yes, phones these days can do that.  A creative GM can always use their god-given small Italian car and rule that there is no signal here.  Not every game world runs like the X-Files.

 

If we are running a game in the modern world, it is not unreasonable to expect that characters have access to the level of technology most people in their income bracket have, without necessarily paying points for it, even if it could be built with points.  Of course, even the new Sony Xperia is not going to last long in a superhero battle, so there is an incentive to pay points for it.  That is what GMs are for.  Foiling devious players.

 

When a player comes up with something you instinctively don't like, as a GM you have to take a moment, identify WHY you don't like it, then decide if you are being rational and, if you are, give a rational reason why that is not happening.  If you just don't like it because it makes sense and you wish you thought of it, maybe this one should slide or, at the very least. you owe it to your own myth to get creative.  One excellent trick is to allow the oddness, then have something happen that completely renders it pointless.  Be ready to completely re-route the entire campaign at a moment's notice.  Someone wants to use a car?  Have every power source in the world stop working*.

 

With great power comes great responsibility and quite a lot of deviousness.

 

 

 

* Actually this is a REALLY bad idea.  Have you seen Revolution?  I can't watch it without anti-nausea medication.  It reminds me of this, which, at least, is meant to be funny: 

[Derek Hiemforth]

I think a lot of folks (including me, at times) overcomplicate this stuff.  The short, SHORT version (as they would say in Spaceballs):

 

If it would be fun, allow it.

 

The goal of the game is to have fun.