Special Powers & Talents in Frameworks - What's your GM Ruling?

[bigdamnhero]

@ Kraven: Right.

 

1. Does it fit the concept?

2. What are the tradeoffs?

[psyber624]

One of the issues with "special" powers in frameworks is that while frameworks are cheaper the "downside" is that you cant have all the abilities in use at once. However several of the special powers (skills especially) aren't really limited by being placed in a framework and so become essentially free points.

 

So if i have a Multipower with 3 attack powers why not add tons of skills with high bonus's (as powers) since i get them for 1/10th the cost, or i can buy every enhanced sense in the book at 1-2 points each.. while i might not be able to use them ALL at once when exactly will I need to? And if you are going to buy ANY Exotic Defenses at all why not buy them ALL in a multipower? I mean how many enemies are going to be Draining/Flashing/Mentalists after all...

 

And like I said before, "Only if it makes sense for the character" is a moot point. Someone created the character. Trust me it would be EASY to find a justification. "Im Batman. My utility belt has it all."

[Kraven Kor]

One of the issues with "special" powers in frameworks is that while frameworks are cheaper the "downside" is that you cant have all the abilities in use at once. However several of the special powers (skills especially) aren't really limited by being placed in a framework and so become essentially free points.

 

So if i have a Multipower with 3 attack powers why not add tons of skills with high bonus's (as powers) since i get them for 1/10th the cost, or i can buy every enhanced sense in the book at 1-2 points each.. while i might not be able to use them ALL at once when exactly will I need to? And if you are going to buy ANY Exotic Defenses at all why not buy them ALL in a multipower? I mean how many enemies are going to be Draining/Flashing/Mentalists after all...

 

And like I said before, "Only if it makes sense for the character" is a moot point. Someone created the character. Trust me it would be EASY to find a justification. "Im Batman. My utility belt has it all."

 

And again this is why it is all GM Discretion.

 

For instance, stats in a VPP.  If you have a VPP with zero-phase to change powers and such, then, in theory, you could switch VPP to an attack and then switch back to +DCV slot, right? 

 

But, a good GM will see the potential for abuse, and say "No" to stats as slots in that VPP due to the potential for abuse, or add some other limitation or rule.

 

Or Danger Sense in a VPP.  That's another where one could swap out the slot as a zero-phase to an attack or defense, and then swap it back into the VPP.  

[Simon]

Realizing of course that that's not how zero-phase changes work, correct?

 

You get to change it once in a given phase/action.  Zero-phase just means that it can occur at the beginning of your action and does not take up any time/portion of your action.

[Kraven Kor]

I kind-of sort-of knew that, but thought VPP Zero-Phase changes were slightly different in that regard from Zero-Phase actions (and had figured Multipower changes in the same way.)

 

I know I am not the only GM I have seen allow a MP / VPP character to switch powers more than once in a phase; though that is generally my ruling on things despite not having been 100% clear on the actual rule. 

[Simon]

For MP:

 

A character can change the way his Multipower

reserve points are distributed or allocated

as a Zero Phase Action. However, unless the

GM permits otherwise, he may not distribute or

allocate reserve points more than once in a Phase.

For example, he could not allocate reserve points

to a Teleportation slot at the beginning of his

Phase, make a Half Move with Teleportation, then

re-allocate points to his Blast slot and attack with

the Blast — having allocated his reserve points

once already at the beginning of his Phase, he

cannot change that allocation until his next Phase

(or unless he Aborts to do so in a later Segment).

 

 

and for VPP:

 

Powers Can Be Changed As A Zero-Phase

Action: Changing powers with a Skill Roll

takes no appreciable time; the character can

change them whenever he can perform a

Zero Phase Action. However, unless the GM

permits otherwise, the character may not

distribute or allocate Pool points more than

once in a Phase.

 

[Ndreare]

I believe you cannot peform even a 0-phase action after an attack. Rolling the attack (succcess or failure) ends your action in the phase.

 

I will skim Champions Complete when I get home and see if the rule is still in there.

[Kraven Kor]

I believe you cannot peform even a 0-phase action after an attack. Rolling the attack (succcess or failure) ends your action in the phase.

 

I will skim Champions Complete when I get home and see if the rule is still in there.

 

No, I am fairly certain that is correct; for some reason my brain was not parsing "switching a VPP slot" as an action, and had read the "unless your GM allows..." as "of course your GM will allow..."  

[sinanju]

And like I said before, "Only if it makes sense for the character" is a moot point. Someone created the character. Trust me it would be EASY to find a justification. "Im Batman. My utility belt has it all."

 

And I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with that. Batman's whole schtick is that he is crazy prepared. I'd probably allow that. (On the other hand, anyone else who wanted to get that deal would have to create a character just as skating-on-the-edge-of-sanity obsessed as Batman to justify it as well.)

[psyber624]

And I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with that. Batman's whole schtick is that he is crazy prepared. I'd probably allow that. (On the other hand, anyone else who wanted to get that deal would have to create a character just as skating-on-the-edge-of-sanity obsessed as Batman to justify it as well.)

Yeah, which is kind of the reason i don't allow Batman clones in my games. Batman works great in a comic because of the format. He gets to be crazy prepared with just the right gizmo for whatever situation he needs.

 

But you stick him in an RPG and suddenly the rest of the players are extraneous. Whatever is needed, Batman can provide. Whatever the problem, Batman has a solution. Same issue that i have with magic. Fire Mutant? I cast Fire Spells. Psychic? I have the Malevolent Mental Maledictions of Mordant. Oh, your a swordsman? Fight my Blessed Blades of Balgador.

 

Yes a GM can regulate these things. But "regulate" usually means saying no and that can get old. Especially after allowing them to have the Powers in the first place. I'd rather say no upfront once than have to shoot them down time and time again.

 

And that's just my opinion. I don't fault others who choose to allow them, I just don't generally.

[Tasha]

Like Mutants, I ask my Magic using PC's to have an overall theme to their spells. Ie Fire Mage, Ice Mage, Mentalist mage. So no spot defense PC's or Spot Offence PC's. No Cosmic Wide Open VPPs. Again you must have a theme that your character follows. Now it would be ok for the Mage or the Gadgeteer to spend time inventing the gadget/spell that would take out the Bad Guy. That's a Genre trope, but it takes days to do. Not something that can be done on a whimsy in battle. VPP's that are gadget pools have to be switched at the PC's base, again not on the battlefield. This pull the right power out of the Pool to defeat the Villain is just plain BS. Even Batman needs to spend time to make up his gadgets that disadvantage his foes.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Yeah, which is kind of the reason i don't allow Batman clones in my games. Batman works great in a comic because of the format. He gets to be crazy prepared with just the right gizmo for whatever situation he needs.

 

But you stick him in an RPG and suddenly the rest of the players are extraneous. Whatever is needed, Batman can provide. Whatever the problem, Batman has a solution. Same issue that i have with magic. Fire Mutant? I cast Fire Spells. Psychic? I have the Malevolent Mental Maledictions of Mordant. Oh, your a swordsman? Fight my Blessed Blades of Balgador.

 

Yes a GM can regulate these things. But "regulate" usually means saying no and that can get old. Especially after allowing them to have the Powers in the first place. I'd rather say no upfront once than have to shoot them down time and time again.

 

And that's just my opinion. I don't fault others who choose to allow them, I just don't generally.

Batman should be low key.  What I mean by that is yes, Batman has a gadget for every situation...that's part of his base concept.  But his gadgets are generally personal or limited in the number of uses.  For example, Batman usually has an air-breather in his utility belt so he can breathe underwater....but he can't grant water-breathing to everyone on the team.  The Lantern can do that. (or rather trap everyone in an air pocket).  Superman can use his laser-eye beams to weld a door shut or cut through an I-beam.  Batman can do the same with his Chemical laser, but it's a one-shot item.  When the chemical fuel is spent, he's gotta reload it in the lab.  And there will be situations where Batman is useless.  Trapped on Apocalypse without a boom-tube to escape.  Batman can't help here.  Lantern is your best bet to get everyone out of the system at FTL speeds.  Bat's can't do that.

[Hugh Neilson]

OK, for some reason I can't get Quote or Multiquote to work (Simon, if you're still following this maybe you can set me straight in a reply or PM).

 

Bigdamnhero raises the character equity question, which I agree with. But special powers aren't the best factor for assessing this, in my opinion. Regeneration? Sure - seldom used in combat (outside of accelerated regen from APG, which I have used as a combat defense). But Healing isn't a Special Power, so I can instead slap a short re-use time Healing power in my framework, thus getting the same benefits the Regenerating character has for nearly free and be able to heal my teammates as well. Now everyone has the benefits of his Regen, and his points are even more wasted since I could just have healed him as well.

 

Multiform is not a special power - when would it ever be used in conjunction with a second power in the framework?

 

I can't put an END reserve in a framework, but both END and REC are characteristics which I can put in a framework, so I can simulate this.

 

No special defenses, but Resistant Protection is not a special power, and I can buy mental, flash or power defense through that construct.

 

Knockback Resistance is hard to squeeze in - I could limit Density Increase considerably and make it Persistent, I suppose.

 

No duplication, enhanced senses, Luck or skills.  I'm not seeing an easy workaround for these (I could probably simulate Duplication with Summon, I suppose -that can be in a framework).  So a heat/fire character can't switch to Infrared, and Iron Man can't divert some power to radar or sonar - they either have them all the time or they can't have them at all.  But they can turn Life Support on or off at will.  I'll turn my Immortality off when I'm in combat - I'll still live a very long time!

 

I don't deny the equity issue.  But I don't believe "no special powers in the framework, but you can have any other powers in there" results in equity. Sometimes, special powers are appropriate in a framework, and other times a non-special power violates balance or equity in a framework. 

 

I'm not saying toss out balance or equity concerns. I am saying "no special powers in a framework" does not address those concerns in a meaningful enough manner to merit inclusion in the rules. Toss that restriction in favour of GM judgement on what is, and is not, appropriate in a framework (or outside it) overall.

[Hyper-Man]

Hugh, Clairsentience is the legal workaround for Enhanced Senses in a Framework.  Limited Damage Reduction would probably be an easier way to work around KB Resistance.

[Hyper-Man]

Life Support is an interesting case when dealing with Green Lantern.  I would argue that it's something provided by the ring by default but that energy use can be overridden by the wearer.  It would certainly be possible to build the Life Support outside of the VPP on my version of a GL Ring but it wouldn't really change any costs on Hal's sheet.

 

It's arguable that this illustrates a need for their to be a Usable By Others DEFAULT version of Life Support.  This would then match up with all the other examples mentioned so far but especially Healing vs. Regeneration.  Currently, Life Support works like Regeneration.  Until a Healing-like version of Life Support is created as a core power I would argue that allowing Life Support to be included in a VPP would require a mandatory level effect including the UBO Advantage.  So yes, Batman can carry a Bat-rebreather in his Utility Belt and it IS possible for him to loan it to someone else.

 

edit

I misread Hugh's use of Life Support in his example and forgot that it is NOT a Special Power.  In that case, GL is the perfect example of why that is.

[Hugh Neilson]

I think LS changed from 5e to 6e. But it has lots of components that are seldom needed, similar to Regeneration and Enhanced Senses, so why would the same logic not apply?  There are lots of good examples of when Special powers should be in a framework, and plenty of examples where non-Special powers should not be, so why have a different default?

[Hyper-Man]

I think LS changed from 5e to 6e. But it has lots of components that are seldom needed, similar to Regeneration and Enhanced Senses, so why would the same logic not apply?  There are lots of good examples of when Special powers should be in a framework, and plenty of examples where non-Special powers should not be, so why have a different default?

 

From 4th Edition Hero System Rulesbook page 75:

 

LIFE SUPPORT

A character with this Standard Power....

[NuSoardGraphite]

Life Support is an interesting case when dealing with Green Lantern.  I would argue that it's something provided by the ring by default but that energy use can be overridden by the wearer.  It would certainly be possible to build the Life Support outside of the VPP on my version of a GL Ring but it wouldn't really change any costs on Hal's sheet.

 

It's arguable that this illustrates a need for their to be a Usable By Others DEFAULT version of Life Support.  This would then match up with all the other examples mentioned so far but especially Healing vs. Regeneration.  Currently, Life Support works like Regeneration.  Until a Healing-like version of Life Support is created as a core power I would argue that allowing Life Support to be included in a VPP would require a mandatory level effect including the UBO Advantage.  So yes, Batman can carry a Bat-rebreather in his Utility Belt and it IS possible for him to loan it to someone else.

 

edit

I misread Hugh's use of Life Support in his example and forgot that it is NOT a Special Power.  In that case, GL is the perfect example of why that is.

Absolutely.  Life Support would be outside the VPP and always active as long as the Ring has even a modicum of power.  (even when the ring is incapable of powering Will Constructs, it will reserve enough Will Energy to keep its bearer alive in any hostile environment).  Within the context of the VPP, if a Lantern wants to protect others via Life Support, it only has to generate a naked Usable On Others in an area effect (perhaps linked to a Force Wall) to provide the base Life Support to his allies.

 

Batman on the other hand, would have Life Support, Usable By Others, OAF as his re-breather.  He can loan it to others, but it can only be used by one person at a time.  He actually has to carry two (paying the extra 5pts out of his pool to do so) or more if he wants to use one himself and allow others to use it.  Lantern is not limited in that way.  He just has to configure his Power Pool to account for the number of subjects (or mass) he wishes to extend his Life Support to.

[Hugh Neilson]

Here again, the rules don't support the construct as Naked Advantages are special powers, so GL should have Life Support outside the pool and the UOO advantage inside it, but the rules only allow him to have the advantage in the pool if the power itself is also in the pool.

 

So, again, I'd simply remove that "special powers" restriction and lump "special powers in a framework" under the same GM discretion that applies overall. 

[Hyper-Man]

Here again, the rules don't support the construct as Naked Advantages are special powers, so GL should have Life Support outside the pool and the UOO advantage inside it, but the rules only allow him to have the advantage in the pool if the power itself is also in the pool.

 

So, again, I'd simply remove that "special powers" restriction and lump "special powers in a framework" under the same GM discretion that applies overall. 

 

Using a Naked Advantage on Life Support is not necessary.  In my version at least, he would just need to use 2 instances of the Life Support Power within the VPP (one is personal, the other with the appropriate UBO Advantage). 

[Beast]

Maybe an update to the "Everyman skills" should include modern tech to anybody that does not take poorest of  the poor complicaton

[Hyper-Man]

Maybe an update to the "Everyman skills" should include modern tech to anybody that does not take poorest of  the poor complicaton

 

That could work. A simpler method might be to just create a campaign worksheet that explicitly states what the characters get 'for free' (including the everyman skills).  This would keep the character sheets cleaner in the process.

[JmOz]

Regarding GL...Summon Force Bubble...Summon has the LS in it...

[Hyper-Man]

Regarding GL...Summon Force Bubble...Summon has the LS in it...

 

Sure, I've even built that for 5e.  However GL has been shown to provide individual Life Support 'shields' to teammates as well.  I think the Force Bubble is 'easier' for him since it's just 1 object vs. many.  Creating and maintaining mulitiple individual shields is arguably more taxing on him but it allows his teammates to use their powers where they wouldn't be able to stuck inside a force bubble.  The cost of UBO Life Support vs. the fire & forget nature of a Summon Force Bubble approach tends to support this as well.

[Ndreare]

As a note on tech as everyman tech. We have always just used common sense. If more than half of the players had access in real life, then the characters should as well. Our playing group run a very broad finacial spectrum, so it is not likely to be weighted to heavily by only one or two people.