BlueCloud2k2 Posted November 5, 2013 Report Share Posted November 5, 2013 Really I think all we can do is try to raise the next generation to be aware that their actions have consequences - not just for themselves but for everyone in their six-degrees of separation. If only the rest of the world would get with the program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted November 6, 2013 Report Share Posted November 6, 2013 I don't think the Punisher's common sense solutions hold water in a complex world of time travel and jet-powered apes. Or to quote a character of my own: "In a world where life after death is a confirmed reality, murder may not be the most effective problem solving strategy." (Of course she's a supervillain.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alverant Posted November 6, 2013 Report Share Posted November 6, 2013 Not that I can see Superman causing a Stanford incident the way Speedball and his group of glory-seekers did. Speedball didn't cause the Stanford incident. Nitro did and it was his choice. What Marvel did to the NW and other heroes like Darkhawk is why I'm glad I stopped collecting their comics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueCloud2k2 Posted November 6, 2013 Report Share Posted November 6, 2013 Speedball didn't cause the Stanford incident. Nitro did and it was his choice. What Marvel did to the NW and other heroes like Darkhawk is why I'm glad I stopped collecting their comics. I don't see it as "Marvel did it to them" as much as "Marvel showed what the public reaction would most realistically be." Mob Mentality is dangerous. Who cares about who's really responsible when there is a convenient scapegoat who 'should have acted more responsibly?' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shadow Posted November 6, 2013 Report Share Posted November 6, 2013 Unfortunately this is very true. Individuals may be smart, but people, as a group, are f***ing stupid! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 The problem is that Marvel is prone to showing uniform responses, where there is no dissent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Civil War. Captain America dissented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Sure, but I meant normals. Where are the pro-mutant normals, for example? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 J. Jonah Jameson dissents to everything if it'll sell more copies of the Daily Bugle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cygnia Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 J. Jonah Jameson dissents to everything if it'll sell more copies of the Daily Bugle. Not always... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soleil Noir Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Not always... Agreed -- Jameson's always had a personal axe to grind against Spider-Man, but to my knowledge the man's always been rock-solid when it came to journalistic integrity and the responsibility of the press (a couple of throwaway jokes from the 3rd "Spider-Man" movie notwithstanding)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Comic book ethics, which are presented in a severely limited medium, require comic book realities. In our world, with our realities, they are both wrong. Both have extremist and absolutist views lacking nuance, maturity, and reasonableness - rendering them totally insane. Comic book characters are fun to read about. Big Blue is one of my favorites. But, in the real world? I wouldn't want to know either of them. Down here on planet earth? They're both dangerous psychotics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueCloud2k2 Posted November 8, 2013 Report Share Posted November 8, 2013 Sure, but I meant normals. Where are the pro-mutant normals, for example? Ben Grimm's friends (a street gang? not sure - didn't read much FF) were the reason he went to France to weather the Civil War. They were a group of normal who were against the SHRA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahuna's bro Posted November 8, 2013 Report Share Posted November 8, 2013 you refer to the yancy street gang Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Weapon Posted November 8, 2013 Report Share Posted November 8, 2013 Neither is right. To simply murder people because you think they're guilty means you're just a killer. To be so obsessed with not killing someone, even when they are IN THE ACT of trying to kill innocents shows no respect for life. Whenever someone Superman had the chance to kill, and kill morally and legally, kills it's down to him. Just killing because you have half an excuse is wrong. But so is pretending that you're not in mortal combat and that the people you're fighting deserve every chance to live. They don't, and they haven't since they started trying to kill you or others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueCloud2k2 Posted November 8, 2013 Report Share Posted November 8, 2013 you refer to the yancy street gang Yes! Them! I kept wanting to call them the Culver Street Commandos... I think that is how FRED has that DNPC listed (looks it up.... nope. Third Street Irregulars) Neither is right. To simply murder people because you think they're guilty means you're just a killer. To be so obsessed with not killing someone, even when they are IN THE ACT of trying to kill innocents shows no respect for life. Whenever someone Superman had the chance to kill, and kill morally and legally, kills it's down to him. Just killing because you have half an excuse is wrong. But so is pretending that you're not in mortal combat and that the people you're fighting deserve every chance to live. They don't, and they haven't since they started trying to kill you or others. You know... I think that is the best-worded condemnation of Superman's tactics I've read in a while. Of course, you can replace Superman with any hero with a CVK and it would still be fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted November 8, 2013 Report Share Posted November 8, 2013 And then you turn Superman into Ultraman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grailknight Posted November 9, 2013 Report Share Posted November 9, 2013 This is my biggest problem with comics today, too much love for the villains shown by the writers. Superman, just like most policemen, avoids using deadly force to capture villains. He can do it almost anytime because his powers give him options policemen and most heros don't have. It's not his fault that the legal system in his universe refuses to execute murderers and can't build a prison to hold the insane. Superman is obeying the law and not setting himself up as judge, jury and executioner. The Punisher starts from the premise that the law is ineffectual at all times. He executes criminals because, in his view, its the only way to see justice done. Except there are many instances in his world where criminals do go to jail, they are sentenced according to the law and people do get the death penalty. So Punisher is a criminal because he doesn't try to work within the law. The Punisher's villains are disposable though. All are faceless mobsters for the most part. Not so with Superman. His villains have become as iconic as he is. Killing them off would require the writers to invent newer villains who wouldn't sell as well. This wouldn't be a problem under Silver and Bronze age morality but too many writers want to use Iron Age tactics for the villains but restrict the heroes to earlier standards. Much of the Iron Age came about because of the shock value of villains with high body count and the revenge fantasy of killer heroes but it also came through independent publishers who had throwaway villains not the Big Two publishers. They didn't do good Iron Age plots until they did mini-series such as Kingdom Come and Squadron Supreme that showed the downsides of superheroes taking over. Because that's what breaking the default CvK logically leads to, heroes becoming government operatives or becoming the government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 Neither is right. To simply murder people because you think they're guilty means you're just a killer. To be so obsessed with not killing someone, even when they are IN THE ACT of trying to kill innocents shows no respect for life. Whenever someone Superman had the chance to kill, and kill morally and legally, kills it's down to him. Just killing because you have half an excuse is wrong. But so is pretending that you're not in mortal combat and that the people you're fighting deserve every chance to live. They don't, and they haven't since they started trying to kill you or others. \Superman is almost never in a situation where he has the chance to kill morally and legally. After all, that would require that he be in a situation where the only way to save someone in immediate peril's life is to kill someone. For someone with Superman's power and speed...how often does that happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 Superman is right for Superman The Punisher is just plain wrong outside the worst dystopia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soleil Noir Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 Just killing because you have half an excuse is wrong. But so is pretending that you're not in mortal combat and that the people you're fighting deserve every chance to live. They don't... Says who? Exactly who gets to decide who "deserves" to live or die? By what authority? Using what criteria? I stand by my original statement -- every citizen, whether they wear a costume or not, has a moral obligation to give every suspect the benefit of the doubt, and to make allowances for contrition and rehabilitation, or just plain being mistaken in your accusation. And that's even more true in a world where, between mind control, mental illusions, masked identities, and shapeshifters (just to name a few) you may have no idea who or what you're facing down until long after the smoke clears... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends. ~ Gandalf the Grey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueCloud2k2 Posted November 13, 2013 Report Share Posted November 13, 2013 Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends. ~ Gandalf the Grey Dangit Greywind! You beat me to it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Impudite Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 The truth is, they both have their blindspots. Clark's way of doing things may work just fine provided the police and the courts can be counted on to do the right thing. Of course, there's the rub: you may not always have the luxury of trusting the authorities. On the same token, while there may be something to be said for ruthless and efficent way in which Frank eliminates the lowlifes he goes after, racking up a body count like he does is also a great way to bring a lot of heat upon yourself; and not always just from the cops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Weapon Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 \Superman is almost never in a situation where he has the chance to kill morally and legally. After all, that would require that he be in a situation where the only way to save someone in immediate peril's life is to kill someone. For someone with Superman's power and speed...how often does that happen? Superman loses, and is in situations where it's credible he could lose. Sure against the average street thug or even against 90%+ of the villians he isn't even close to needing to kill. But against those who actually challenge him he STILL doesn't go lethal. This is even though those who can possibly defeat him are orders of magnitude more dangerous than the others. If anyone who could take down Superman did, who would stop them afterwards? How many would they kill before they were defeated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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