Who do you think is right, Superman or Punisher?

[Soleil Noir]

The truth is, they both have their blindspots.

 

Clark's way of doing things may work just fine provided the police and the courts can be counted on to do the right thing. Of course, there's the rub: you may not always have the luxury of trusting the authorities.

 

On the same token, while there may be something to be said for ruthless and efficent way in which Frank eliminates the lowlifes he goes after, racking up a body count like he does is also a great way to bring a lot of heat upon yourself; and not always just from the cops.

 

The problem is, the "Punisher" route doesn't actually SOLVE any of the problems or shortcomings inherent to the "Superman" route -- it EXACERBATES them.  If there's the possibility of the criminal justice system being corrupt or incompetent, how much more likely is that to be true for a single person in a mask who's accountable to no one?

 

We put our faith in an inherently flawed justice system because, unless and until some race of angels descends from on high to govern us with perfect justice, we're all we've got.  The rule of law will always trump the rule of men for providing a fair, impartial system.  Even if we could find a person or persons with both the wisdom and the virtue to wield absolute power responsibly, it's only a matter of time before that power falls into the hands of someone less principled or less competent -- that alone is reason enough to never elevate any one individual over others by giving them the power to play judge, jury, and executioner.

[Grailknight]

Superman loses, and is in situations where it's credible he could lose.  Sure against the average street thug or even against 90%+ of the villians he isn't even close to needing to kill.  But against those who actually challenge him he STILL doesn't go lethal.  This is even though those who can possibly defeat him are orders of magnitude more dangerous than the others.  If anyone who could take down Superman did, who would stop them afterwards?  How many would they kill before they were defeated?

 

Superman is following the law, even though it may put him at risk. He can't be sure that the villain may not have a magic or kryptonite weapon or trap prepared for him or know that they may be powerful enough to beat him outright. If it's fine for Superman to kill rather than risk losing, then how low is the lethal force bar set for Wonder Woman, Captain America, Spiderman or Batman? How low is it for the regular police? If it's ok "whenever i'm at risk of defeat" then the villain population will be in serious decline.

 

Your argument doesn't even apply to real life. In the case of the Boston bombing, the police took the second brother alive. Yes, the thermographics showed he didn't have a gun, but he could have been wearing a plastique vest and they couldn't get a visual until they were right on top of him. Did they snipe him or commando raid the boat? No. They took a chance, after evacuating the civilians, and rushed him and cuffed him. I hope he gets the death penalty and wish that the law allowed for execution by hitting him with a frag grenade and watching him bleed out, but i'm entirely behind taking him into custody for trial. That's how the law works. 

 

Heroes take risks, that's why they're considered heroes.

[Old Man]

Suppose we took Frank and Clark and put them in each others' universe. What then? What would Superman do when confronted with unpowered villains that were pure evil, and a hopelessly corrupt legal system? What would Frank do if he knew he could count on the system, but might wind up on the wrong side of it?

[Greywind]

I don't think Frank ever looked at the System. He saw his family dead and decided that wiping the Mob out was balance.

[Old Man]

I think he looked at the System long enough to dismiss it as ineffective, otherwise there would have been no Mob to kill his family.  And when he was first published, during the historic crime wave of the late seventies, people were starting to feel the same way IRL.  Then by the late nineties he actually went out of print for lack of sales.

[Doc Shadow]

BTW I'm familiar with the fictional novel protagonist who "inspired" (*cough*rippedoff*ahem*) the Punisher: Mac Bolan, aka "The Executioner." During most of his adventures written by his creator, Don Pendleton, Mac Bolan was very much a soldier, fighting on the home front what he felt was a far more insidious enemy than any foreign army. After his initial outrage at the Mafia's strike against his family, he was calmly rational about his one-man war, and very specific in his targets. He refused to place innocent lives in danger, or to defend himself against law-enforcement officers. He often rescued people in danger from the mob, at risk to his own life and objectives. On more than one occasion he let go a Mafioso whom he felt truly had a change of heart.

Mack Bolan you say. Hmmm. Do I know anything about this guy?

The Executioner.RTF

[assault]

Suppose we took Frank and Clark and put them in each others' universe. What then? What would Superman do when confronted with unpowered villains that were pure evil, and a hopelessly corrupt legal system?

 

Take a leaf from Bruce's book, and find a Jim Gordon and a Harvey Dent.

 

As far as corrupt legal systems go, Luthor probably buys lawyers, judges and juries wholesale.

[Greywind]

Lawyers and judges, maybe. Don't recall Luthor ever ending up in court or prison, except in the movies.

[Cygnia]

DCAU had him jailed at least.

[assault]

Actually, Clark Kent, Lois Lane, Jimmy Olsen and Perry White would be an ideal team to deal with "unpowered villains that were pure evil, and a hopelessly corrupt legal system".

 

And yes, they would find a Gordon and a Dent.

 

Oh yeah: "unpowered villains that were pure evil"? Sounds like half of Superman's rogues gallery, not just Luthor.

[bigbywolfe]

Lawyers and judges, maybe. Don't recall Luthor ever ending up in court or prison, except in the movies.

He was in prison in All Star Superman, but that's not canon.  "President Luthor" was arrested at the end of the movie version of Superman/Batman: Public Enemies, but I don't remember if it went down the same way in the comic (though I I believe those comics were canon at the time).  I'm pretty sure the old "mad scientist" version of Luthor was sent to prison many times back in the Golden and Silver age.

[assault]

In Frank's world, Clark would work for the Daily Bugle, and Peter Parker would be his pal.

 

In Clark's world, Frank would be schooled by Batman.

[Burrito Boy]

BTW I'm familiar with the fictional novel protagonist who "inspired" (*cough*rippedoff*ahem*) the Punisher: Mac Bolan, aka "The Executioner." During most of his adventures written by his creator, Don Pendleton, Mac Bolan was very much a soldier, fighting on the home front what he felt was a far more insidious enemy than any foreign army. After his initial outrage at the Mafia's strike against his family, he was calmly rational about his one-man war, and very specific in his targets. He refused to place innocent lives in danger, or to defend himself against law-enforcement officers. He often rescued people in danger from the mob, at risk to his own life and objectives. On more than one occasion he let go a Mafioso whom he felt truly had a change of heart.

You say inspired then ripped off. That should be inspired then was ripped off by. Gramatically speaking. And it's Mack, not Mac.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

It's just that I'm a big Don Pendleton fan and it cheeses me off that the imitation--Frank Castle--is more well known than the original--Mack Bolan.

 

To answer the main question, I wouldn't pick either. There's a time to kill and a time to heal. Different situations call for different solutions. But I'd probably be less super and more punishing if I were a superhero.

[dmjalund]

Luthor was arrested in John Byrnes original Man Of Steel comic miniseries - and that was canon

[Soleil Noir]

Suppose we took Frank and Clark and put them in each others' universe. What then? What would Superman do when confronted with unpowered villains that were pure evil, and a hopelessly corrupt legal system? What would Frank do if he knew he could count on the system, but might wind up on the wrong side of it?

 

As to putting Clark Kent into the Punisher's world, that's where the other half of Superman's dual identity comes into play -- as a reporter, he has the power to shine a light on that corruption and rally public opinion and public outrage until people demand (and get) better from their elected officials.

[culhwch]

He was in prison in All Star Superman, but that's not canon.  "President Luthor" was arrested at the end of the movie version of Superman/Batman: Public Enemies, but I don't remember if it went down the same way in the comic (though I I believe those comics were canon at the time).  I'm pretty sure the old "mad scientist" version of Luthor was sent to prison many times back in the Golden and Silver age.

Luthor was also in prison post-new 52 reboot (current canon).

[BoloOfEarth]

Who is right, Superman or Punisher?  Personally, I don't think we should get into politics outside the NGD threads. 

 

Oh, that's not what you meant by "right."  My bad.

[Old Man]

I like to wonder what would happen if Castle got hold of Superman's power set.

[Burrito Boy]

I like to wonder what would happen if Castle got hold of Superman's power set.

That would make a great issue of What If...?

[Twilight]

Comic book ethics, which are presented in a severely limited medium, require comic book realities. In our world, with our realities, they are both wrong. Both have extremist and absolutist views lacking nuance, maturity, and reasonableness - rendering them totally insane. Comic book characters are fun to read about. Big Blue is one of my favorites. But, in the real world? I wouldn't want to know either of them. Down here on planet earth? They're both dangerous psychotics.

Umm, no.  Superman is not a dangerous psychotic.  Trying to be the best person and the best hero one can possibly be does not make you a psychotic.  By that reckoning a large portion of the world's population would be "dangerously psychotic."

[Old Man]

"Trying to be the best person and best hero one can possibly be" is flexible enough that it probably does apply to many psychotics.  There have been some really evil and psychotic acts recently by people who somehow came to think that they were doing the right thing.  I think Castle is at least aware that he's, at best, fighting fire with fire.

[Greywind]

Priest: For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Frank Castle: Matthew 7:2.

Priest: You're a long way from the seminary, Frank.

Frank Castle: I accepted that a long time ago.

[IndianaJoe3]

As to putting Clark Kent into the Punisher's world, that's where the other half of Superman's dual identity comes into play -- as a reporter, he has the power to shine a light on that corruption and rally public opinion and public outrage until people demand (and get) better from their elected officials.

 

I'm imagining the corrupt-but-low-powered villains the Punisher deals with trying to deal with Clark Kent in the same fashion.

 

Crime Boss: "Louie, how come this Kent guy is still breathing? You were supposed to make an example of him."

Louie: "I've tried! I've had his car bombed, tried poisoning his food, and it didn't work! I even tried sniping him in the head with a .50 and it just bounced! It's like he's Superman or something!"

Boss: "Superman's a comic book. Now get out of my sight until you've done the job."

[Old Man]

More like:

 

Boss: "Then make an example of his girlfriend. And shoot up that newspaper office for good measure."

[Grailknight]

And said crime boss will be quietly retired by his peers. That type escalation will attract too much heat, even from the most corrupt officials and media. It's bad for everyone's business.