Who do you think is right, Superman or Punisher?

[Cygnia]

IIRC, Luther was only implicated and never actually caught doing anything illegal... so while Castle might find reason to investigate Luther... he wouldn't just snipe him with a .50 from a distant rooftop.

 

Though I think Supes would make do his best to keep that from happening.

 

For some reason the issue of Punisher where Castle went after Osborn and had The Sentry hunting him comes to mind...

This becomes a LOT weirder when you replace Supes and the Punisher with the shows "Luther" & "Castle" instead...

[Grailknight]

Superman.

 

The Punisher could adopt Superman's moral code. He could choose to be a vigilante crimefighter like Batman, Daredevil, Green Arrow or many others.

 

He doesn't. He plays it safe, opens with deadly force  and makes no attempt to capture his targets. He has judged them beforehand and only changes his sentence if confronted by blinding flashes of obvious evidence and pleas of contrition accompanied by his targets being turned in to the legal system.

 

Superman could take the Punisher's moral code. He can listen to conversations held all over the world, watch a suspicious person/area better than a spy sattelite and read evidence that a crime lab would miss with their best equipment. He'd know who was guilty and could take them out quickly, leave no physical evidence and with no collateral damage risk.

 

He doesn't. He works within the law and takes risks to capture criminals, including repeat offenders who boast of their exploits, make personal threats  and some who have tortured him and his friends when they had the upper hand. The times that he chose to kill have involved mass murderers that he had no viable way to imprison and have caused him considerable mental anguish afterwards(to the point of a nervous breakdown). He has had breaks with his closest friends when they chose to kill in similar situations.

 

Heroes are supposed to be the best of us.

[BlueCloud2k2]

Superman.

 

The Punisher could adopt Superman's moral code. He could choose to be a vigilante crimefighter like Batman, Daredevil, Green Arrow or many others.

 

Didn't Daredevil used to kill bad guys?

 

Superman could take the Punisher's moral code. He can listen to conversations held all over the world, watch a suspicious person/area better than a spy sattelite and read evidence that a crime lab would miss with their best equipment. He'd know who was guilty and could take them out quickly, leave no physical evidence and with no collateral damage risk.

 

He doesn't. He works within the law and takes risks to capture criminals, including repeat offenders who boast of their exploits, make personal threats  and some who have tortured him and his friends when they had the upper hand. The times that he chose to kill have involved mass murderers that he had no viable way to imprison and have caused him considerable mental anguish afterwards(to the point of a nervous breakdown). He has had breaks with his closest friends when they chose to kill in similar situations.

 

Heroes are supposed to be the best of us.

Amen to that, brother.

 

I like Marvel's universe better than DC. It feels more "real."

 

Still, Superman and Batman are probably my favorite heroes after Spiderman just because they stick to their CVK.

[Greywind]

No. Daredevil isn't a killer.

[assault]

And the "everyone hates mutants" part of the Marvel universe is ludicrous beyond anything DC has ever done.

 

FWIW, I'm a big fan of DC's current Earth-2 series. Brilliant world-building, and, yes, superpowers have made a difference. There's an underground trade in salvaged Apokolipsian technology, fire pits over major parts of the world, and mutant dinosaur like creatures in the ruins of Gotham City.

[BlueCloud2k2]

And the "everyone hates mutants" part of the Marvel universe is ludicrous beyond anything DC has ever done.

I dunno... lets look at how much hostility gays catch. Or the hostility of some religious groups for people outside of their own religion. Or the hate crimes perpetrated against muslims immediately following 9-11.

 

On my own campus a woman was attacked by a mob of 8 and beaten badly because she "looked muslim." She was pureblood Sioux. And she will never walk again.

 

Bigotry is everywhere. People don't need much of an excuse.

[assault]

The thing is that you never see normals supporting mutants in the Marvel universe.

 

I saw a joke yesterday, where someone griping about Halloween being a symptom of the Americanization of Australian society was answered by: "how many Aboriginal traditions do you follow?"

[Old Man]

No. Daredevil isn't a killer.

 

No, he's worse--he's a lawyer.

[Old Man]

Heroes are supposed to be the best of us.

 

Honestly I think this is an unfair comparison.  Castle is a skilled normal.  Superman is like unto a god.  Punsiher may open with deadly force, but he almost has no alternative given that he's nearly always outnumbered and possibly outgunned at the outset of any encounter.  He can't fight fair because he'll lose, and probably die, if he does.  Conversely, Superman embodies a kind of superiority complex wherein he has the duty, if not the luxury, of operating with much stricter rules of engagement.

[megaplayboy]

Well, Superman is out to protect and serve the public trust.  He is essentially maintaining public order, in a not-at-all-fascist way.  He has a moderate level of faith in "the system" and is willing to allow it a chance to work.  The Punisher comes from a background where he paid his dues(Vietnam), worked hard and started a family...only to see them wiped out before his eyes.  His faith in "the system" died with his family.  He is a soldier and to him, criminals are the enemy.  His job is to kill or "punish" them. He is operating according to the rules of war, asymmetrical war at that.  Additionally, Superman is all too aware of his "godlike" abilities, and very much wants to avoid putting himself in the position of God and deciding who lives or dies.  He has not had the life experiences Castle had, he has not experienced the same kind of traumatic loss, was raised as a farmboy not a soldier, and his powers put him in a position where he has a much broader array of options than the Punisher. 

If the Punisher had Superman's powers, he would reduce the membership of the Mafia, MS-13, the Medellin Cartel, Aryan Brotherhood, Crips and Bloods to zero in under a week.  And then he would have a breakdown when he ran out of bad guys to punish. 

[Lord Liaden]

Honestly I think this is an unfair comparison.  Castle is a skilled normal.  Superman is like unto a god.  Punsiher may open with deadly force, but he almost has no alternative given that he's nearly always outnumbered and possibly outgunned at the outset of any encounter.  He can't fight fair because he'll lose, and probably die, if he does.  Conversely, Superman embodies a kind of superiority complex wherein he has the duty, if not the luxury, of operating with much stricter rules of engagement.

 

OTOH comics also give us the likes of Batman, Captain America, or Daredevil, who fight whole groups of criminals with their combat skills, their smarts, and a few gimmicks. They don't necessarily fight fair, either, but they almost never fight lethal.

 

When Marvel and DC did their "Amalgam" cross-company series some years ago, they combined Superman and Captain America into one character, "Super-Soldier." While I would never have thought of that beforehand, in hindsight it made perfect sense. Both Cap and Supes are the shining ideals in their respective universes, the symbol and embodiment of the highest standards of heroic conduct. But Captain America is physically just a man, albeit the best a man can get.   Yet his nobility and determination are practically superhuman.

[Grailknight]

Honestly I think this is an unfair comparison.  Castle is a skilled normal.  Superman is like unto a god.  Punsiher may open with deadly force, but he almost has no alternative given that he's nearly always outnumbered and possibly outgunned at the outset of any encounter.  He can't fight fair because he'll lose, and probably die, if he does.  Conversely, Superman embodies a kind of superiority complex wherein he has the duty, if not the luxury, of operating with much stricter rules of engagement.

 

Batman would like to discuss rationalizations with you.

[BlueCloud2k2]

Batman would like to discuss rationalizations with you.

 

Concur.

 

Although, one could argue that Batman's super-power is his keen intellect and being in physical shape to compete with pretty much any Olympian.

 

Castle is a soldier. No more, no less. While he is in good physical shape, I think if you took away all of their toys and weapons, Batman would hand Punisher his butt on a silver platter.

[Greywind]

Batman would take away all of the Punisher's toys and weapons first, and then hand him his butt. Alfred would probably supply the silver platter.

[Old Man]

I feel compelled to point out that while Batman is the only other "normal" mentioned so far, he is also decked out in what amounts to magic items. He still has an edge on Castle or any other normal bad guy, and his usual opponents are, likewise, skilled normals.

 

And more importantly, Batman is hardly the Boy Scout that Superman is. Morally I think he's closer to the Punisher.

[Greywind]

No. That was Az-Bats.

[Old Man]

Admittedly I wasn't thinking of Adam West Batman who, some days, just can't get rid of a bomb.

 

Another thing is that Castle works opposite a different type of villain. His adversaries are not costumed loonies with trick bumbershoots and laughing gas. They're sanitized portrayals of organized crime syndicates that, in real life, are terrifying embodiments of true evil. In fact you kind of have to wonder why Supes is futzing around with fake glasses in Metropolis while Castle is taking down sex slavery rings and Mexican drug cartels.

[TheQuestionMan]

I feel we live in a Punisher Universe already.

 

I would much prefer to live in a Superman Universe.

 

Finally given motive and opportunity I fear I would follow the Punishers path.

 

QM

[Roter Baron]

Given superpowers I would become Der Rote Superbaron-Mann!

[tomd1969]

Please, tell us more about this motivation system.

In DC Heroes, the characters are separated into two camps, heroes and villains. Each camp had five motivations.

 

Among the heroic motivations were:

 

* Upholding Good (Superman)

* Seeking Justice (Batman)

* Responsibility of Power (Green Lantern)

* Thrill of Adventure (Batgirl)

* Unwanted Power (Cyborg)

 

The villainous motivations were:

 

* Psychopath (the Joker)

* Mercenary (Deadshot)

* Thrill Seeker (can't think of an example)

* Power Lust (Lex Luthor)

* Nihilist (can't think of one, though Darkseid is one possibility)

[Cassandra]

In DC Heroes, the characters are separated into two camps, heroes and villains. Each camp had five motivations.

 

Among the heroic motivations were:

 

* Upholding Good (Superman)

* Seeking Justice (Batman)

* Responsibility of Power (Green Lantern)

* Thrill of Adventure (Batgirl)

* Unwanted Power (Cyborg)

 

The villainous motivations were:

 

* Psychopath (the Joker)

* Mercenary (Deadshot)

* Thrill Seeker (can't think of an example)

* Power Lust (Lex Luthor)

* Nihilist (can't think of one, though Darkseid is one possibility)

 

Thrill Seeker could be a Psychological Limit for a Hero.  Along with Batgirl the following heroes and heroines have it.

 

Black Widow

Wasp

Hawkeye

Tigra

Human Torch 2

 

They just need to have Protect The Innocent.

[BlueCloud2k2]

I feel we live in a Punisher Universe already.

 

I would much prefer to live in a Superman Universe.

 

Finally given motive and opportunity I fear I would follow the Punishers path.

 

QM

 

Sadly I must also put myself in this category. I strive to live up to the ideals of Superman and Captain America, but in reality I would fall somewhere between The Batman and The Punisher...

 

Would that make me... the Banisher? The Pun-Bat? The Puntman?

 

Hrm... maybe closer to a cross between Punisher and Joker. I would slay the badguys with bad puns. Which really would make me the Pun-isher.

[kahuna's bro]

unfotunatly I agree with tqm that todays world seems to much like the punisher's world

I too would rather live in superman's

[BlueCloud2k2]

^{I think even the marvel universe during the golden and silver ages would be better than ours.}

 

^{Hrm... my computer is doing something funky with the font... hopefully this doesn't look horrible.}

[Old Man]

^{I think even the marvel universe during the golden and silver ages would be better than ours.}

 

No question.  Mainstream comics need to abide by standards of common decency, if not the Comics Code.  Reality, unfortunately, has no such restriction.