7th Edition thoughts

[zslane]

That's the sort of exercise the game designers must go through when coming up with a power called Flight. It is not the sort of exercise players want to go through to build their characters.

 

I remember when Hero Games was working on the 4th edition. In order to better understand the cost structures for things, they broke characters down to the point where they had 0 in every characteristic and built up a normal human from scratch, purchasing senses, the ability to move, use STR, etc. They could have made players do that in order to build any (and every) character, but they realized that was a "game" nobody wanted to play. That isn't the Hero System; it is the Hero Game Design System, and I'm sure it is fun for game designers. Not so much for game players.

[pinecone]

Truth, at that rate 6th becomes a "simple" version. Or it turns into a one page of rules; Do stuff, Know stuff, Endure stuff....and then 500 pages explaining how to use these simple rules.

 

I'd like to see the system move towards intuitive, and fun. And away from legalistic, and scholarly. (in tone if nothing else..)

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think blast/HA and killing attacks could be reduced to simplicity;

 

Killing Attack, 15 pts per d6: must take either "strength adds damage" or "ranged"

Normal Attack: 5 pts per d6: see above.

 

This would streamline things a bit and eliminate the "HTA loophole" which pointlessly makes the real cost of HTA cheaper than blast.

[IndianaJoe3]

I think it could be simplified further.

Create a base Power called Movement that costs 1 point per 1m.

By default choose 1 flavor from following list:

1. Running which includes No Turn Mode

2. Flight which includes Altitude

3. Teleport... etc

 

Gliding and Swinging are just Limited versions of option #2.

 

I've seen similar suggestions for attack powers like Blast, HA and Killing Attacks. 

Reduce the list of core Powers and it might help newbies understand the Core Principle of Reason from Effects a little better.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing this as something like a Hero SRD, but I don't see it as anything more than a design exercise. All of Hero's complexity is still there.  It's minimalist, but it's not simple. To use a programming analogy, if Hero is C, you are proposing assembly language.

[Greywind]

I don't agree that removing some powers and shoving them into another power as limited was a good move. It was a lot easier before for the casual player that wanted to do someone based off Batman to slap in Swinging instead of fumbling through trying to figure out what to do with Flight to get it.

[Grailknight]

I could definitely go for eliminating HA from the game in its present form. 

 

If it were ruled as a power with no range that STR adds to and cost 5 points per die, I'm good with it. It simulates bludgeoning weapons and will be limited by focus in most uses.

 

If it is just limited STR then why bother with the power, use limited STR.

[Hyper-Man]

I could definitely go for eliminating HA from the game in its present form. 

 

If it were ruled as a power with no range that STR adds to and cost 5 points per die, I'm good with it. It simulates bludgeoning weapons and will be limited by focus in most uses.

 

If it is just limited STR then why bother with the power, use limited STR.

Then how would you build non-lethal weapons like a club and staff?

[Christopher R Taylor]

There is something to be said for prebuilds for some basic concepts in a specific genre.  At the risk of splintering the game into different books again, perhaps an answer would be a very stripped down basic set of official rules, then for the different genre books to add in the bits that fit that genre.

 

For instance, Resistant Protection is fine for the rules, but in Fantasy Hero and Champions (and Star Hero for that matter) Force Field should be a build.  Or Gliding in Champions.  Swinging is, of course in the rules already but I'd argue it ought not be, except for Champions (and maybe Pulp?  Cue Tarzan Yell here).

 

The way to do this would be have them as a "sub power" under the parent power, built as Talents.  So under Flight you could have gliding, ice slide, and swinging, with the numbers crunched to the point that players only have to pick them.  So you'd have FLIGHT, then under it GLIDING costing 1 point per 2m, without needing to have the block o' modifiers associated with it.

[pinecone]

Club: +10 Str, club stuff only -1/2, OAF...?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Then how would you build non-lethal weapons like a club and staff?

 

 

Like this I'd guess:

 

a power with no range that STR adds to and cost 5 points per die, I'm good with it. It simulates bludgeoning weapons and will be limited by focus in most uses.

 

[ghost-angel]

You'll always run into the issue that 5 points of STR does both damage, adds to a STR based roll, and adds Lift/Carry capability.

 

Compared to that, 5 Points for just Damage that STR adds to seems like the prices aren't fairly matched.

[Christopher R Taylor]

That's true, but nobody seems to care that with HKA you have the same damage class issues and always have.  5 points = 1DC damage killing or 1DC normal and lifting capacity.  Yet it works out fine in the game.

 

Edited: you could consider the special effects of the HTA to balance out the strength lifting ability.  You can lift something, but I can light a fire with my HTA.

[Greywind]

...you might want to look at ghost-angel's signature.

[ghost-angel]

Killing Attacks were a particular issue when Steve went into things with 6th Ed; one thing he wanted to do was completely disassociate STR damage from KA (As in, STR no longer added to them).

 

I was against this at the time. Now, I'm not sure he was wrong. Either way, I think the cost comparison between Norma and Killing Attacks versus Strength is now off due to the system assumption of 5 Points = 1 Damage Class as an underlying idea.

 

I've always been under the opinion that it was STR that was priced wrong, doubly so in the days of Figured Characteristics. If DEX is worth 2 Points for +1 just due to going first, then STR should also be 2 for 1 based on Damage and all the other things it does.

 

But then "bricks become expensive" and all that crap. An argument I've never really bought into. It's a legacy issue, and a bad one.

[ghost-angel]

Edited: you could consider the special effects of the HTA to balance out the strength lifting ability.  You can lift something, but I can light a fire with my HTA.

 

Meh, if you define your HA as "Fists of Fire" you better be able to light fires with 'em, especially if the GM allows Fireman's "fire" Blast to do so as well. Minor SFX considerations should not be an issue.

 

Even more so when you consider that Blast (and even the previous Energy Blast) could also be defined as a Physical Defense Attack (aka Throwing Chunks Of Ice or whatever).

 

I also see no reason HA can't be define as "Versus Energy Def" as well. These are Mechanics considerations, not SFX issues.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Of course HTA can be defined as vs energy defense.  My point is that the special effects of HTA are the balance for the lifting capacity and exertion of Strength.  Your Cold based HTA can chill your drinks, your sand based HTA can be used to erase something off paper, etc.  Utility = utility.  So the cost is fine without the legacy modifier to make it cheaper.

After all, adding strength to damage is equivalent to adding range to it in the system... except for HTA.

[ghost-angel]

SFX should never be the balance for mechanical considerations. Ever.

 

Special Effects will have some positive and some negative ramifications - but they are not Mechanically defined aspects, and are not a consideration for Mechanical and Point balance issues.

[Grailknight]

Killing Attacks were a particular issue when Steve went into things with 6th Ed; one thing he wanted to do was completely disassociate STR damage from KA (As in, STR no longer added to them).

 

I was against this at the time. Now, I'm not sure he was wrong. Either way, I think the cost comparison between Norma and Killing Attacks versus Strength is now off due to the system assumption of 5 Points = 1 Damage Class as an underlying idea.

 

Mechanically and game theory wise this can work. I see no problems in a supers game where all powers are bought with points but in a non-supers game it gets complicated. I see two BIG problems here.

 

First off is diversity. While weapons will still differ by 1-handed or 2-handed, and + to hit and AP without a mechanic like STR minimum there will only be one good weapon of each type and a number of inferior ones an no barrier to everyone swing the biggest thing they can get for their fighting style. This applies to the non-KA weapons using HA also. You can get around this by paying points for equipment but that has other problems.

 

Secondly, it stomps all over suspension of belief. We don't have real world experience with magic and lasers but we pretty much know that knives and clubs work better for stronger people and even better for stronger skilled ones.

 

 

I've always been under the opinion that it was STR that was priced wrong, doubly so in the days of Figured Characteristics. If DEX is worth 2 Points for +1 just due to going first, then STR should also be 2 for 1 based on Damage and all the other things it does.

 

But then "bricks become expensive" and all that crap. An argument I've never really bought into. It's a legacy issue, and a bad one.

 

I'm more inclined to go with DEX at 1 point for +1. STR giving you the ability to lift and carry more is not that unbalanced with INT letting you spot things, REC allowing you to run longer, or BODY keeping you from dying. Figured CHAR were the problem here. 

[ghost-angel]

This issue, as I see it, is that if PRE, INT and STR are worth 1:1 then DEX is too and hit was a horrible mistake to price it higher, just wrong on levels I can't express in words.

 

But, if you leave STR at 1:1 then you have to accept that if 5 Points = +1 Damage Class, i.e. 1D6 Normal Damage Attack that STR is just slightly under priced as a Characteristic, move past the disconnect, and remove that completely unwarranted "mandatory Limitation" reduce "Blast" to Normal Attack, that either Adds Strength or Has Range, giving you two basic Attack ideals: Normal Attack, Killing Attack, each one priced correctly at 5 Points per Damage Class. That STR then becomes over powered leaves it to the table to Build To Concept and deal with it.

 

Which I'm perfectly fine with, but that means the 60 STR Superstrong Brick likely has more bang for the buck over the "Very skilled, but Normal Characteristic Level Martial Artists" who bought "Qi Punch: +xD6 Normal Hand Attack" - gains the same level of damage, one has lift and a roll to go with it.

 

It's a legacy issue that will never be adequately statisfied...

 

Well, there is one way: STR doesn't do Damage, everyone gets 2D6 Normal Hand To Hand Damage for free.

[Greywind]

It's like trying to achieve parity between apples, oranges and watermelons.

[Grailknight]

The Martial Artist is taken care of by martial dc's. They comprise the best damage adder in the game because they cost 4 points per DC, cost no END and add to several different types of attacks (Strike, HKA, NND, Flash and Grab/Shove). The only advantage STR has is the lift and carry.

[Tasha]

I could definitely go for eliminating HA from the game in its present form. 

 

If it were ruled as a power with no range that STR adds to and cost 5 points per die, I'm good with it. It simulates bludgeoning weapons and will be limited by focus in most uses.

 

If it is just limited STR then why bother with the power, use limited STR.

The "Why not just go with Limited Strength" question is EXACTLY why HtH Attack has the limitation on Blast. Because otherwise people WOULD just take Strength and limit it to (Only for damage, not for lifting, throwing etc).

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah but that's easy enough to fix, just say "you can't do that."  As in STR can't be bought only for damage in the rules.  Sort of like how you can't buy a "self only" limitation on healing, even though it technically does limit the power.

[Grailknight]

The "Why not just go with Limited Strength" question is EXACTLY why HtH Attack has the limitation on Blast. Because otherwise people WOULD just take Strength and limit it to (Only for damage, not for lifting, throwing etc).

 

In its present form this is EXACTLY what HA is.  

[pinecone]

Word, sometimes I don't understand what the concern is, other times it looks more like symantics rather than mechanics being the issue. HA effectively Is STR with a lim, so charging the same as STR is not a logical thing (to me anyway)