7th Edition thoughts

[Christopher R Taylor]

I share the concern that making Hero too Champions-centric can hurt the other titles; in other words, focusing on superheroes shouldn't be to the detriment of Fantasy, Sci Fi, Pulp, etc.

[Greywind]

Fantasy will at best, be third behind D&D and Pathfinder. D&D is, and always has been, the path of least resistance where fantasy RPGs are concerned. Pathfinder is a direct off-shoot.

 

The system primarily should have been Champions and held the preeminent position for Supers.

 

The other genres always seem to be minor filler, because people want to play Star Trek or Star Wars. Pulp and post-apocalyptic are even more niche-y.

[Grailknight]

I do not feel that Hero should ignore the other genres.

 

I do feel that the rules should give priority to Champions.(i.e Knockback vs Knockdown)

[zslane]

CC is already something of a throwback in terms of product presentation. It harkens back to pre-4th edition days in which the system rules were contained within each genre book and the emphasis, in terms of market push and company resources, was clearly on Champions. This probably makes a lot of sense given the incredible popularity of superheroes in our pop culture right now, but isn't the MHI line doing quite well for Hero Games? Would it be wise to bias the rules towards Champions at the expense of MHI?

[Lucius]

Can I ask why?

I use Hero to run Fantasy. Fantasy is ALL I run in Hero.

 

To me, and I doubt I'm the only one, fantasy is the main event and comics are the sideshow.

 

It certainly isn't going to revive by taking market from Paizo or Wizards in the fantasy genre.

Hero is a better system for fantasy than D&D. If it weren't, I wouldn't be here.

 

Fantasy will at best, be third behind D&D and Pathfinder.

Even assuming this to be the case, can you tell me why taking the third biggest slice of a large pie (fantasy gaming) is not better than taking even the biggest piece of a smaller pie (superhero gaming) if the entire smaller pie isn't as big as that slice of the big pie you're turning down?

 

ESPECIALLY if you are in a position to cut yourself slices of both pies?

 

The system primarily should have been Champions and held the preeminent position for Supers.

I feel like I'm repeating myself, but.....Fantasy is all I run in Hero. Without Fantasy Hero, I wouldn't even be here. I'd probably be playing GURPS or Basic Role Playing.

 

Fortunately, Hero Games IS in a position to cut a slice of both pies. Susano is busily forging and sharpening Fantasy Hero Complete to cut off a little more of the pie I came for.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

the palindromedary is greedy and wants a piece of ALL the pies

[Hyper-Man]

I like pie.

[Greywind]

Because fantasy is just watered down super heroics

[Steve]

You mean Exalted?

[Greywind]

No. I avoid White Wolf games like the plague they are.

[Ndreare]

While I buy champions stuff I too play 90% of the time in heroic games.

I do not think going full bore on champions and abandoning the genres or settings loved by so many others would be welcomed.

[mhd]

Never mind that the superhero RPG market looks quite different from what HERO has to offer these days... Everything that's been out post-D20 makes the old Marvel game look positively crunchy.

[Balabanto]

 

 

Some of us feel otherwise.

 

Some of us feel VERY STRONGLY otherwise.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is in one mind about this.

 

Well, that's why there's going to be Fantasy Hero complete, etc. Different rules sets with the same Hero core. Now look at the threads on the hero board and where most of the posts are. You're really going to tell me that Champions isn't 70 to 80 percent of Hero's core base? You can't make products for 20 percent of your fanbase and expect to be financially successful. 70 to 80 percent of Hero output has to be Champions products.

[Ndreare]

I am curious is that actual market information or only a guess?

Also is champions complete included in that, because let's be honest as the core rule book it's sales cannot be used to gauge market percentages for genre.

 

Does this mean I need to quit wasting money on champions products to get more fantasy products?

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think the game should still be generic and modular - part of the appeal is the ability to use Fantasy Hero magic books in Star Hero and Star Hero gadgets in Champions, and run pulp characters through Vietnam War scenarios and so on.

 

But as I suggested above, each book for the different genre sets can offer the rules in a way that focuses most on that genre.  So the base rule set can be very basic (have two kinds of attacks, or even one kind that you define as normal or killing; ranged or strength adds damage, for example) and then in the genre books you break it down further and be more specific.  In Champions you can use drain as suppress and transfer!  In Fantasy Hero Aid can be used for succor!  and so on.  So books about Pulp adventures don't really need transformation to be described on 4 pages of text, or even mentioned at all.  But Sci Fi probably does.

 

And the entire line should be tilted toward the best marketing and most well known books in the system: Champions.  Fantasy Champions, Star Champions, etc.  I mean in the title, not the content.  Champions is the recognized brand, not Hero.  Exploit that.

[zslane]

That sounds like the chaos of 2nd/3rd edition, an era I would never want to go back to. But what I want to buy and what Hero Games wants to publish are two very different things these days.

 

I guess Hero Games has determined that the typical (and therefore majority) Hero Games customer only ever plays one genre, and therefore products can be self-contained and purpose-built for that genre/audience. I am certainly not such a customer, but market trends dictate business decisions, and so it goes.

 

Fantasy may be the dominant genre for RPGs, but it has never been the dominant genre for Hero System players. The vast majority of fantasy roleplayers will never use the Hero System, and I think a publication like Fantasy Hero Complete is nothing more than a case of grabbing at the second-lowest hanging fruit (after supers). I don't believe it reflects a feeling within Hero Games that fantasy has as large (or larger) an audience among Hero System players as superheroes does.

[Scott Baker]

I guess Hero Games has determined that the typical (and therefore majority) Hero Games customer only ever plays one genre, and therefore products can be self-contained and purpose-built for that genre/audience. I am certainly not such a customer, but market trends dictate business decisions, and so it goes.

No need to guess. If you look for Jason's posts, he commented on the market/reasoning.

[IndianaJoe3]

I suggested upthread that the two tracks could be complementary. The Core Rules, "Genre Complete" (core plus appropriate optional rules with a short genre treatment), and the Advanced Guide (all optional rules). You could even have an, "Unbound" line, which would be the current genre books.

[Old Man]

Like Lucius I mainly use Hero for fantasy. However I could get behind a more clear delineation between Fantasy Hero and Champions. Ever since 4th ed FH has been Fantasy Champions, all in the name of unified system. Unfortunately, for all its versatility, Champions has issues when ported to fantasy. One, it's not costed correctly--Flight is too cheap, and STR absolutely needs to cost 2/pt if it defines how much damage your character inflicts and what its defenses are. Two, more areas need to be better defined, including but not limited to magic, healing, magic, spells, magic, armor, skills, special effects, and sorcery.

 

I don't think we need to go as far as actually having two sets of rules for the different genres. I'd be more inclined to have generic Hero underpin all genres and institute a campaign-preferences system that lets GMs tweak things like the CV range, cost of certain powers and stats, access to powers, and so on. Then we would put out slightly more genre-specific versions of Hero, to lower the learning curve and make the system fit better. And once players catch on, if they want to start tweaking the rules, the crunchy stuff is there to support them.

 

Anyway that would help prevent the genres from holding each other back, if it actually happens.

[Balabanto]

I am curious is that actual market information or only a guess?

Also is champions complete included in that, because let's be honest as the core rule book it's sales cannot be used to gauge market percentages for genre.

 

Does this mean I need to quit wasting money on champions products to get more fantasy products?

 

No, it means you need to buy every product, the same way I do. I don't PLAY fantasy hero. But I support the company that makes Fantasy Hero. In life, you have to make choices. One of those choices is "If I do not support a company I love, will they still be making products at the end of the year?"

[shuddemell]

I have been following this thread for awhile, and all of these arguments seem strikingly similar to the ones put forth during the inception of CC. I sincerely wonder whether there will ever be a 7th anyway, since for all intents and purposes it is a niche market within a niche market. I used to have high hopes that gamers could be brought around to see the strengths of Hero, no matter what their genre of choice, but I don't think it likely. I would be curious to know what share of the market percentage Hero actually does command... if it is greater than a tenth of a percent, I would consider eating my hat... 

 

That being said, I too mainly use Hero for Fantasy, though I do supers once in a while, and like the ability to do whatever I want genre-wise, and I suspect a lot of us do. I just doubt that any of the tweaks mentioned would actually get new players. If we are talking about supporting the current fan base, then these suggestions are valid. I personally agree with Old Man et al. that strength and flight are under-costed and should be re-evaluated based on the Heroic paradigm. I suspect that is the reason that flight only usable on a surface became the de facto standard for modeling super speed running. 

 

My final question, and the crux of the matter to me, is would the system as a whole be served by worrying about a new version? Yes, I know this is pure speculation for entertainment purposes, but I see so much "obsession" over a new set of rules distracting from folks actually putting out supplements, campaigns, worlds, etc. for the current system, and wouldn't that be a better use of this energy?

[mhd]

I don't think we need to go as far as actually having two sets of rules for the different genres. I'd be more inclined to have generic Hero underpin all genres and institute a campaign-preferences system that lets GMs tweak things like the CV range, cost of certain powers and stats, access to powers, and so on.

I very much agree. I think this is what most game masters of heroic settings are doing anyway in the initial campaign prep phase, and it's a section that would benefit from more mechanical support. Ready-made settings are one option, of course, but more dials and switches in the core rules wouldn't hurt.

 

The big issue with this is its complexity. This adds another layer onto the whole system. For every power, you have to reference your "options & house rules" section, which quickly becomes cumbersome. Especially if you don't play that same campaign for 10+ years, but switch to other "rulesets" occasionally.

 

This would be a good place for electronic help. But apart from a recent failed kickstarter, I haven't seen any good attempts in that direction.

 

Superheroic settings generally go down to the very turtles, as there's just such a wide variety of backgrounds and power sources. Heroic games tend to move in more orderly fashions, and are often quite idiosyncratic.

 

Applications like Hero Designer favor the former. Now with enough system support (both from the core rules and the program), it would be easy enough to adjust some dials and get a base framework that e.g. players who make their own spells or maneuvers can use. Possibly even a good cheat sheet (if the rules themselves were in an electronic format, adjustments could even appear there).

 

Steve Long gets plastic blobs, the GM gets lego, the spell creator gets building blocks, other players get playsets, lazy players get pre-built ones with stickers already applied. That would be a way to manage a system that is that much fine-tuned. Otherwise, optional rules and formula changes should probably best be kept to a minimum.

[Scott Baker]

This would be a good place for electronic help. But apart from a recent failed kickstarter, I haven't seen any good attempts in that direction.

OT: Which kickstarter?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Probably a GMing Hero book would be good.  That's what I envisioned with 6th edition: a simplified streamlined set of rules with lots of examples and a more complex set of rules with all the fine details and questions answered, and tons of GMing tips and tweaks as a second book.  That way there would be one easy to access cheaper book to get people into Hero, then a bigger book to help GMs and with more specific information that costs more.  Sort of the "Player's Handbook/DM Guide" model, but AD&D style, not the modern one where the player's handbook is twice as big as the DM guide.

[Steve]

The problem with writing books geared to GMs is that it cuts your available market down even more. Out of a group of four or five players there might be one or two GMs.

 

Hero's main strength is with superhero gaming, but fantasy and sci-fi gaming are not insignificant markets to try and cater to.

 

Our problem as a fanbase is we can be elitist, maybe since we have to build so much ourselves and take pride in being able to get into the nuts and bolts of the system's engine, but in my experience most gamers don't care to devote hours to setup and prep work. They want to show up at a game, rack up a body count of orcs or whatever and have a good time with their buddies.

[Greywind]

...with either soda or beer and pizza and pretzels.