Shapeshifter Mode Lock

[Greywind]

Well if we need to get fancy, how about shape shift uao and the form be broadly named "current form".

 

Because nothing is stopping them from using their own power to change shape again.

[Ninja-Bear]

Well I looked up the rules and by RAW shapeshift UAO is also illegal. You're suppose to use transform. So it seems Christoper Taylor has the correct answer.

[Greywind]

I can't see it, since suppress shuts a power off, and that would force them to their non-shapeshifted form.  Its like using a killing attack to reduce presence by cutting their face off, to me at least.

 

But is the power active when they are in a form? Or is the power only active when they are changing form?

[Greywind]

But the "stay in this form" power needs to work regardless of how the shapeshift is built. Unless shapeshift is made persistent you revert back to your base form when knocked out (or the power is otherwise turned off) so Drain/Suppress is not a viable method unless you also house rule that all shapeshifters have to buy inherent for some reason.

 

EDIT: Actually you can Drain/Suppress a Persistent power and it will turn off so they would still revert. So outside of completely houseruling how shapeshift functions it isn't actually a viable option at all.

 

Shifters are a rarity as it is. Hand waving something minor doesn't bother me.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I agree usable by others wouldn't work but usable as an attack with the control not in the hands of the target would.  Its just technically illegal  But like I said in this case, I'd probably allow it in this case.

[bigbywolfe]

But is the power active when they are in a form? Or is the power only active when they are changing form?

Yes, no.

The power cost END by default and is Continuous.  The entire time they are in the changed form they are actively using the power (even if they buy it to 0 END, or Cost END Only to Activate, they are still using it) and when they stop using it (for example, if they are knocked out) they revert back.  There is absolutely no ambiguity in the rules on this.

 

Shifters are a rarity as it is. Hand waving something minor doesn't bother me.

Good for you, but generally it's a good idea to explain you are suggesting a house rule, not suggesting an actual book legal solution.  Also the "rarity" of shape shifters is going to vary greatly by game/campaign.  Personally I wouldn't allow it because it sets a horrible president in that it fundamentally changed how Shapeshift works and completely altering how a different Power functions is not an aspect of Suppress.

[Ninja-Bear]

Christopher Taylor to me I really think supress is the way to go and depending on shape shift is defined then being locked in a form should be a either 0 or -1/4 lim.

Bigbywolf I felt this falls under dramatic sense, common sense, etc..

[Greywind]

Yes, no.

The power cost END by default and is Continuous.  The entire time they are in the changed form they are actively using the power (even if they buy it to 0 END, or Cost END Only to Activate, they are still using it) and when they stop using it (for example, if they are knocked out) they revert back.  There is absolutely no ambiguity in the rules on this.

 

Good for you, but generally it's a good idea to explain you are suggesting a house rule, not suggesting an actual book legal solution.  Also the "rarity" of shape shifters is going to vary greatly by game/campaign.  Personally I wouldn't allow it because it sets a horrible president in that it fundamentally changed how Shapeshift works and completely altering how a different Power functions is not an aspect of Suppress.

 

Doesn't have to be. There are advantages that can be applied to the shape shift ability that will change that. Which is why I said earlier, it all depends on how both powers are defined.

 

And let's leave presidents out of this. No need to bring in politics.

[bigbywolfe]

There is no Advantage that allows you to remain shifted after the power is turned off.  And again, the "stay in that form" Power needs to work regardless of how the Shapeshift is built.  

Your solution is to use a house rule.  That's fine.  For reasons already stated I would not rule it that way.

Also, way to go.  You pointed out my typo instead of even remotely addressing the issue.  You got me.  Brava.

[Greywind]

Then simply put, there is no counter power that will lock shape shift without a lot of mental acrobatics and probably hand waving.

[bigbywolfe]

Actually there are 2 and both have already been mentioned in this thread and are 100% legal per RAW.

[Ndreare]

Persistent and Uncontrolled both bought usable as attack and ranged.

[Steve]

Now that I think about it, the Mind Control versus CON method should also work against a Multiform power, since it is a kind of Shape Shift. Anyone else agree?

[bigbywolfe]

Some thoughts about how SFX affects this discussion.

In a lot of fiction someone using Magic to transform themselves who then gets their powers removed will be stuck in whatever form they were in.  A lot of fairy tales have the trope that the witch/wizard/elf/whatever can be trapped in a certain form by removing the object that gives them the ability to shape shift.  This also happens in comics occasionally.   However that is far from universal.

Lets look at some other SFX.  Mystique and Morph are mutants whose ability to shape shift is at least partially Persistent (they can sleep without the Power turning off and them reverting) and yet when suppression collars that disable Mutant abilities are put on them (which would generally be built as Suppress) and they revert back to their original appearance.  

Clayface's abilities (at least one version of him) were from a chemically induced "radiation accident".  When he gets hit be a solvent (perhaps a Drain?) or gets knocked out he reverts back to the lumbering clay mountain we all know and love.

Skrull's shape shifting is often shown to be Persistent (in some media they revert when knocked out, in others they don't) and yet there are power suppression technologies that can take away their ability to shift, in which case they revert to their base form.  

I don't see how "Common and Dramatic Sense" can be used to justify using Suppress to lock a shape-shifter into a specific form across the board.  I could see it in specific settings where all shifters had the same SFX and functioned the same way (and even then you are still clearly in house rule territory, which is fine), but not as a generic application for the game in general, especially when you could easily have others using Suppress's that would make them revert in the same campaign.

[Lucius]

Actually there are 2 and both have already been mentioned in this thread and are 100% legal per RAW.

There are? They have?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary changes form to a backandforthtrian

[bigbywolfe]

Lucius, I can't tell if you are serious or just going for a joke.

[Beast]

1 charge last X amount of time

Limited power X amount of time must run to end of X

[Hyper-Man]

I like the Mind Control based on CON approach as the best generic fit. 

 

However, I agree the question really comes down to how the 'shapechange' ability is actually built to begin with.

 

In many ways, this is a question similar to how to build 'turn undead'.  The best answer to in that case is to build it as a limitation of being 'undead' (vulnerability/susceptibility to Holy PRE attacks or such).

 

Maybe the 'shapechange' ability being discussed here also needs a backdoor limitation built in from the get go.

[Ninja-Bear]

I don't see how "Common and Dramatic Sense" can be used to justify using Suppress to lock a shape-shifter into a specific form across the board.  I could see it in specific settings where all shifters had the same SFX and functioned the same way (and even then you are still clearly in house rule territory, which is fine), but not as a generic application for the game in general, especially when you could easily have others using Suppress's that would make them revert in the same campaign.I shoukd

 

Bigbywolf, I should've been more specific because you are right. The first thing I thought off with shape shift lock sfx is when a Transformer gets stuck in his vehicle mode. And I'm sure that some villain could devise a lock ray or gizmo. I take Steve Long's comment on common sense that sometimes genre/campaign world sfx trumps RAW at GM discretion of course.

[Chris Goodwin]

Transform can be used to add or subtract Powers, right?  

 

Transform:  Shapeshifter to Current Form (Minus Shapeshift Power).  

 

Probably Major.  

[Ninja-Bear]

Transform can be used to add or subtract Powers, right?

 

Transform: Shapeshifter to Current Form (Minus Shapeshift Power).

 

Probably Major.

Thats alittle overkill I think. Shape shift doesn't inherently give you any additional powers so its in essence a cosmetic transformation.

[Chris Goodwin]

Thats alittle overkill I think. Shape shift doesn't inherently give you any additional powers so its in essence a cosmetic transformation.

 

You're right.  I should have written something like this: 

 

Transform:  Shape Changer to Current Form (Minus Shape Changing Powers).

 

Special effects would have a say, obviously, but that seems like a reasonable power construct to me.  It would a little more broadly affect Multiformers and characters with shape change VPPs.  (I ran one of those, and this power would mess him up!)  

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Perhaps a transform that adds NCC, Persistent to the shapeshift power. 

[Lucius]

Lucius, I can't tell if you are serious or just going for a joke.

In this case, the former. I'd like to know what you're thinking.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary proposes Extradimensional Movement

[bigbywolfe]

Both Transform and Mind Control were already mentioned. I'm not sure what's left to explain.