[Police brutality] American injustice, yet again.

[薔薇語]

So, you're saying the plural of anecdote is data. Pretty sound reasoning, there.

The funny thing about statistics on cops is that it is like info on the CIA, we don't really get any. Police agencies generally refuse to even report the most basic info about themselves like: how many people do we kill each year. That is a pretty easy number to generate and send off to the FBI (which, if I recall correctly they are legally mandated to do) but still they don't. And when a police force isn't even willing to be open with how many times they kill people, how well can we trust them? It certainly makes getting even basic data about abuse of power pretty darn hard, doesn't it. But lets talk about the recent Ferguson issue: the Attorney General discovered that the police there were intentionally using citations to generate a large portion (majority?) of their revenue. Police were judged by how many they gave out. Police officers would brag about how many they could give out at a single time. They also directly targeted minority groups with them. I recall that my home city installed speed cams and later on adjusted the time between red light and the photo being taken by a fraction of a second despite that being banned in our charter to the operating company because it would generate significantly more revenue. Even though the police force and the operating company knew it was illegal they did it anyway and then covered it up and denied it all the way. I think something similar happened in Chicago (or some other major city). And even when it was discovered that they were deliberately acting in an illegal manner, no charges were brought up and they got away scot-free. Heck, they got away with tons of money, too. 

 

La Rose. 

[Enforcer84]

E84: "Man, you have to split a lot of hairs to keep your prejudices looking clean. I believe you that most guys don't go raping people. I also believe the vast majority of cops aren't suspect. Clearly you disagree there but I can give you just as many acts of civilian on civilian brutality"

 

Me: Again, apples to oranges. But feel free to list examples of jerks being jerks. I don't mind. But that isn't the point. The point is that the people we have put into position of authority seem to have a rampant disconnect from the very people they are meant to be protecting. Be it all the instances of harassment, racial discrimination (and other forms), the inclination towards violence, including deadly force, or of actually raping people and all the cover ups that go along with it. In my hometown alone there was a story of the prosecutor dilberately going after a guy and putting him in jail for 25 years with the help of the police because they needed someone to blame and didn't care who. And they KNEW he was innocent. In my hometown alone it was revealed recently that the police of deliberately been expanding on their budget using civil forfeiture for years and actually budget in accordance with the idea they will steal X million dollars a year from people. In my hometown alone we had to institute new regs on police because they were caught tazing old women to death. In my hometown alone we have had issues with cops stealing money from houses when they do crime scene investigations. I can remember when we got a new police chief and he had to rewrite and enforce driving rules because cops would constantly do 20 to 40 miles over the speed limit in their patrol cars even when NOT going to a crime scene. I had plenty of interactions with cops. And with the exception of one guy, they all seemed like overgrown bullies who were a single step away from snapping and had no regard for the laws. And my hometown is a fairly small and liberal college town. For there to be so many instances of police overstepping, corruptions, and generally bad behavior, is a sign that the culture of policing must be in part to blame. 

 

E84: And again, even if I had a personal experience with a dirty cop I've had personal experiences with three rape victims (2 female, 1 male) I've had personal experiences with numerous thieves...

Me: And I have had experiences with several rape victims, too. I am thankful that I don't know any rapists or thieves first hand, though. But that has no connection to whether or not police can be trusted. Again, Apples to oranges. 

 

But at least we can both agree that Limp Bizcuit fans are weird. 

 

La Rose. 

 

I'm sorry, but it's not Apples to Oranges as you want it to be. It's at best Pear to Slightly dented Pear. 

 

You keep trying to make a square hole where there is none.  There is just as much generally bad behavior in any "culture" to say it is to blame. There's been plenty of evidence of misdeeds in Childcare, Prisons, Religions, Sports, Gaming, Murder Enthusiasts, Pop Music fanatics, Ravers, Corporations, Politicians, Students, Medical Profession, the Financial world, Gender Groups (for all six Genders) - Cops are no more a monolithic culture than Postal workers or Strippers. (Though they have more guns than the strippers)

 

Power Hungry Psychopaths and Low-Impulse Control Violent Hooligans flock to anywhere they can feed their delights, Police would clearly be a high choice, but so is Teaching, Politics, Maybe not Ditch Diggers. Drug king-pins Oh my God those guys can be violent. Bloggers! Less violent but still think they're Gods. 

 

You want to have the authority to rage against the authority but I just think you should be better than that. I know I'm being a dismissive asshole and this part will come across as patronizing, but I like you most of the time. Stuff like this is just kind of disappointing. I'm with you that we need to get rid of the bad cops. I understand there are problems with the justice system and beyond but when you paint them all like that I can't help but feel my broadsides against corporations are just as hollow. 

 

Basically this is about me. What about my needs? 

[薔薇語]

*

 

I didn't say you never admit you're wrong, just that you don't seem to like to do so.

 

As far as the volume of complaints giving you the impression that most police are bad: that's what my second jab was about. It's simply not true. If most police were bad, we'd have far, far more incidents in the news.

 

Is there widespread, systematic corruption in certain areas? Sure. That's been the case pretty much forever, really. Are most police officers bad/corrupt? No.

 

Are there too many incidents? Sure. And I'm glad that one side effect of every cell phone being a video camera these days is that these incidents get more exposure.

 

 

*Eh, new board makes it hard to put in a quote after the fact, which I did since there was a post up between the two.

 

First, I agree that the new board system does not allow for great quoting. But Cest la vie. 

 

No one likes admitting they are wrong. But to bring that up as a charge against me, a person who has publicly come out and done so on a number of occasions is an attack on my character that is not justified in the least bit. I do admit when I am wrong and do issue apologies in accordance. So please try to understand why I think that comment was wholly inappropriate and offensive - especially coming from someone who was the benefactor of a public apology not too long ago. 

 

I think the problem here is that you think the corruption is limited to "certain areas" but it doesn't seem to be. We have various state, county, and local police official doing bad things. Forces that represent major metropolitan areas and rural areas like mine. There is no linking theme between corruptions other than 'police'. 

 

The low income black community of Ferguson was subject to wide scale corruption. 

 

The high income college town I am from is subject to it. 

 

The state highway patrol of California (where they steal nude and simi-nude photos of traffic violaters to later be sent out) is subject to it. 

 

The Blue collar, rock and roll loving people of Cleveland are subject to it. 

 

The super lib city of Portland is subject to it. 

 

And of course every major city in the US is subject to it. 

 

This isn't a "well, it is just some isolated groups" kind of thing. It is widespread and doesn't seem to be limited to any particular demographic short of "police". 

 

La Rose. 

[薔薇語]

E84, the same is true from me to you, I generally like you and enjoy what you have to say. And I truly have no hard feelings towards you. So please don't read in such in my comments, they are not intended to be so (not that you are, but as a cautionary note). 

If you think certain individuals and groups are being jerks, I welcome you to talk about them. You never know, maybe I might learn of a new person or group to dislike. But this discussion is about police. You still have faith in the average policeman to be an upstanding and good person. A very 50s mindset, I think. But I don't. My experience with them has left me with a bad taste. My knowledge of how my own local police operate has left me with a bad taste. The rampant news stories of police acting illegally has left me with a bad taste. The stories of police and prosecutors covering up for each other finally breaks it for me and I can't bare it any more. If police want respect and to be given default trust, they have to earn it. Until then, I am just not going to put any faith in them. Too often that faith is abused. 

La Rose. 

[Old Man]

Look, obviously not all cops are bad. But enough of them are, and enough more just look the other way, that it's now causing this huge trust problem. Rose is hardly the only one.

The United States is not a place where we're supposed to fear cops. Respect them, certainly. But it now really seems as though cops in many jurisdictions have been issued a license to kill, and that's extremely wrong.

Ever since Ferguson, the light has been shone on instances of killer cops all over the country.  Arizona.  NYPD.  LAPD.  New Mexico.  Cleveland.  We get new reports of unarmed Americans getting gunned down by police almost every single day now!  It's almost impossible to keep track.  Perhaps Rose is not justified in painting all cops with his broad brush, but he's way more justified today than he was a year ago.

[Enforcer84]

E84, the same is true from me to you, I generally like you and enjoy what you have to say. And I truly have no hard feelings towards you. So please don't read in such in my comments, they are not intended to be so (not that you are, but as a cautionary note). 

 

If you think certain individuals and groups are being jerks, I welcome you to talk about them. You never know, maybe I might learn of a new person or group to dislike. But this discussion is about police. You still have faith in the average policeman to be an upstanding and good person. A very 50s mindset, I think. But I don't. My experience with them has left me with a bad taste. My knowledge of how my own local police operate has left me with a bad taste. The rampant news stories of police acting illegally has left me with a bad taste. The stories of police and prosecutors covering up for each other finally breaks it for me and I can't bare it any more. If police want respect and be given default trust, they have to earn it. Until then, I am just not going to put any faith in them. Too often that faith is abused. 

 

La Rose. 

Tends to be how I feel about corporations. Like Police, they often do a bad job of..um...Policing themselves. But I'm trying to be more diplomatic. 

[Enforcer84]

Look, obviously not all cops are bad. But enough of them are, and enough more just look the other way, that it's now causing this huge trust problem. Rose is hardly the only one.

 

The United States is not a place where we're supposed to fear cops. Respect them, certainly. But it now really seems as though cops in many jurisdictions have been issued a license to kill, and that's extremely wrong.

 

Ever since Ferguson, the light has been shone on instances of killer cops all over the country.  Arizona.  NYPD.  LAPD.  New Mexico.  Cleveland.  We get new reports of unarmed Americans getting gunned down by police almost every single day now!  It's almost impossible to keep track.  Perhaps Rose is not justified in painting all cops with his broad brush, but he's way more justified today than he was a year ago.

Yeah a year ago it was Gun Owners.

[Pattern Ghost]

First, I agree that the new board system does not allow for great quoting. But Cest la vie. 

 

No one likes admitting they are wrong. But to bring that up as a charge against me, a person who has publicly come out and done so on a number of occasions is an attack on my character that is not justified in the least bit. I do admit when I am wrong and do issue apologies in accordance. So please try to understand why I think that comment was wholly inappropriate and offensive - especially coming from someone who was the benefactor of a public apology not too long ago. 

 

 

I'll stand by it. You will argue until you're blue in the face before reversing any opinion. You're doing it right now in defending your stance that most police are bad.

 

 

 

I think the problem here is that you think the corruption is limited to "certain areas" but it doesn't seem to be.

 

I didn't say that.

 

 

 

We have various state, county, and local police official doing bad things. Forces that represent major metropolitan areas and rural areas like mine. There is no linking theme between corruptions other than 'police'.

 

Right. Then complain about either the individual officers involved, or the department involved if there's evidence of systematic corruption. As to the the link being police, I'd say that's because the topic is police abuses of power.

[Pattern Ghost]

Ever since Ferguson, the light has been shone on instances of killer cops all over the country.  Arizona.  NYPD.  LAPD.  New Mexico.  Cleveland.  We get new reports of unarmed Americans getting gunned down by police almost every single day now!  It's almost impossible to keep track. 

 

Thing is, the police have been doing this stuff for years. For all we know, there could be less of it now than in the past, but we're hearing about it more. And that's a good thing. We should hear about every last bit of it, and the perpetrators should be held accountable.

 

 

 

Perhaps Rose is not justified in painting all cops with his broad brush, but he's way more justified today than he was a year ago.

 

No, he isn't.

[Old Man]

I'll stand by it. You will argue until you're blue in the face before reversing any opinion. You're doing it right now in defending your stance that most police are bad.

 

Maybe most police are bad.  I'm not seeing any systemic changes being made in the face of this incredible wave of police brutality reports.  I'm not seeing the outcry from all the good cops about the bad ones making them look bad.  I dunno.

[Old Man]

No, he isn't.

 

Is so. 

[薔薇語]

I'll stand by it. You will argue until you're blue in the face before reversing any opinion. You're doing it right now in defending your stance that most police are bad.

Well, excuse me if I don't back down just because I am challenged. You realize you are doing the same thing, right? There is a vast difference in defending one's position and not admitting one's mistakes. You accused me of the latter. That was inappropriate. Yet you still don't seem to acknowledge it. I have change my stances on subjects on these boards a couple of times and admitted to such. But I don't change my beliefs just because someone wants me to, there has to be a compelling argument for it. And I am sorry to say that you and others have not made such an argument yet. 

 

I didn't say that.

You said, and let me quote you "Is there widespread, systematic corruption in certain areas? Sure.". I used your words in the context you used them. So, yes, you did say that. 

 

 

Right. Then complain about either the individual officers involved, or the department involved if there's evidence of systematic corruption. As to the the link being police, I'd say that's because the topic is police abuses of power.

When discussing widespread racism in the Jim Crow Era of US history, should I have limited my criticism to only the most specific cops involved? Or should I grasp the fact that it wasn't just individuals acting badly but a system that allows for and potentially promotes acting badly? If you think the former, then you and I are of such vastly different views that we can not reconcile them. There are terrible individual police out there. There are police out there who protect them, too. And as a whole the system seems to promote that kind of behavior. -To clarify, the behavior of protecting bad police. 

 

La Rose.

[Hermit]

Okay, let's focus on the issues and not each other, please. I know sometimes that seems to limit conversation but this is an important issue and I'd really hate to lock the thread if it gets too heated

[Enforcer84]

Lock the thread (don't lock the thread, baby) 

Lock the thread (don't tip the thread over)

 

I'll show myself out.

[Pattern Ghost]

Well, excuse me if I don't back down just because I am challenged. You realize you are doing the same thing, right? There is a vast difference in defending one's position and not admitting one's mistakes. You accused me of the latter. That was inappropriate. Yet you still don't seem to acknowledge it. I have change my stances on subjects on these boards a couple of times and admitted to such. But I don't change my beliefs just because someone wants me to, there has to be a compelling argument for it. And I am sorry to say that you and others have not made such an argument yet. 

 

 

I find your position indefensible, so I think it's entirely appropriate to call you on it. It's no less prejudice to paint a whole group -- on which I'm a former member of, and have many friends who are members of -- with a broad brush because they serve as law enforcement officers than it would be if they were members of a minority or any other group. That's patently wrong. You are wrong for having done so. In case you haven't noticed, I've taken offense to that statement.

 

You don't want to change your beliefs? That's fine. Don't expect me not to call you on it if you express those beliefs in an offensive manner.

 

 

You said, and let me quote you "Is there widespread, systematic corruption in certain areas? Sure.". I used your words in the context you used them. So, yes, you did say that.

 

Don't start the quoting nonsense again. There is systematic corruption in certain areas. Would you have been happier had I said "many areas"? I'm not saying the problem isn't widespread, I'm saying that not all cops are criminals, thugs and murderers, but agreeing with you that in at least some areas/departments, it's a major problem.

 

 

When discussing widespread racism in the Jim Crow Era of US history, should I  . . .

 

You should probably not act like a racist by painting a whole group of people with a broad brush. You're using the same language as a racist when you do so.

 

All I'm asking for you to do is to tone down the broad brush strokes and be a bit more precise. If you said that we have widespread problems with police abusing their authority, then I'd agree with you 100%. Just avoid the all inclusive insults.

 

I don't really have a huge beef with you, and like you well enough, I'm just offended at the constant 'all cops are bad' mantra. It doesn't sound any better coming from a fellow board member than it does coming from the crowd in that video I linked earlier, who were impeding an investigation with the nonsense. It's a non-productive approach. It's hate mongering. I don't like any form of hate mongering -- and I don't think you do either. I think you don't see your statements as such and are just venting, but I want you to know that said venting is offensive and non-productive.

[Pattern Ghost]

Okay, let's focus on the issues and not each other, please. I know sometimes that seems to limit conversation but this is an important issue and I'd really hate to lock the thread if it gets too heated

 

But dad, he started it!

 

Seriously, though, if Rose wants to take it to IMs or just drop it, that's fine by me. You won't hear anything further from me in that discussion in this thread.*

 

 

 

*OK, just that last burying the hatchet post, to you know, bury the hatchet. /ducks

[Pattern Ghost]

 

Maybe most police are bad.  I'm not seeing any systemic changes being made in the face of this incredible wave of police brutality reports.  I'm not seeing the outcry from all the good cops about the bad ones making them look bad.  I dunno.

 

It's possible, but we just don't know. The problem is certainly widespread, but it's been a huge problem for decades. As long as I can remember, there have been complaints of police shakedowns, police brutality, and racially-motivated police killings. The fact is, whether through incompetence or malice, we have vast numbers of people with police authority who can't be trusted with such authority.

 

Having known a good number of both military and civilian police, I can tell  you that there are plenty who are in it for the power, or who are incompetent, or who can't handle the power once they have it. It's a very tricky business entrusting people with power over us, from elected officials, down to beat cops.

 

As far as only hearing the negative side of things, and not hearing from cops who oppose this kind of behavior . . . well, the network news has its own history to contend with. I'm sure there are plenty of cops who are outraged over these incidents.

[薔薇語]

I find your position indefensible, so I think it's entirely appropriate to call you on it.

Of course you do. And I have no issue with you arguing with me over it. Obviously you and I have different positions. But the mere fact that I have my position and do not back down from it is not an indication that I am incapable of admitting my mistakes. Your comments above would seem to have indicated as much. That is incorrect. And the way in which you stated it was offensive, thus my reaction towards you. Just because I argue a point does not mean I think that point is infallible, just that I think it is right.

 

It's no less prejudice to paint a whole group -- on which I'm a former member of, and have many friends who are members of -- with a broad brush because they serve as law enforcement officers than it would be if they were members of a minority or any other group. That's patently wrong. You are wrong for having done so. In case you haven't noticed, I've taken offense to that statement.

 

You don't want to change your beliefs? That's fine. Don't expect me not to call you on it if you express those beliefs in an offensive manner.

I realize you have taken offense. And I don't particularly think that is a bad thing for you to feel. Nor am I arguing that you should not think that it is a bit over the top and rude. But, and I will continue this in a later quote...

 

Don't start the quoting nonsense again. There is systematic corruption in certain areas. Would you have been happier had I said "many areas"? I'm not saying the problem isn't widespread, I'm saying that not all cops are criminals, thugs and murderers, but agreeing with you that in at least some areas/departments, it's a major problem.

Okay, so I think you didn't quite make clear your view by saying "certain areas". To me that would imply you were underplaying the scope of the problem. I was arguing that it is a widespread and systemic problem and then you respond by saying "certain areas". I think you can see why I would think you were claiming it to be, in comparison to what I and others, a minor problem limited in its reach and breadth.

 

You should probably not act like a racist by painting a whole group of people with a broad brush. You're using the same language as a racist when you do so.

Act like a racist? I think not. I am not condemning a group by virtue of their birth but by virtue of their collective deeds. I am also limiting my criticism to a fully voluntary group. The KKK hates people regardless of their deeds due only to the involuntary status of their birth. There is a VERY big difference.

 

All I'm asking for you to do is to tone down the broad brush strokes and be a bit more precise. If you said that we have widespread problems with police abusing their authority, then I'd agree with you 100%. Just avoid the all inclusive insults.

 

To continue from my point from earlier, the problem here is that you want to focus solely on the individuals and I am saying it is more than just an issue of individuals. The problem is systemic - something you seem to agree with. The problem has been around for a while - something you seem to agree with. The problem is not limited by locale - something you seem to agree with. And in light of those three issues this problem should not be looked as simply being individual cops acting badly. It is an issue of police forces acting badly. The collective whole is not to be trusted. The system as a whole is corrupted. Does that mean every single cop is such? No, it doesn't. And I avoid saying so for a reason. But it does mean that COPS are. COPS in the collective more abstract sense are not to be trusted. Too many police forces engage in or permit absolutely unacceptable behavior.

 

I'm just offended at the constant 'all cops are bad' mantra.

And this is where I try to be very specific with my phrasing. I do not say "all cops" for a specific reason - that reason being expressed above.

 

 

La Rose.

[Ragitsu]

In an attempt to steer the topic back words offensive police behavior, i'm posting a video showing a detective with a particularly foul temper.

 

 

Urk. I've seen five year olds at McDonalds with more patience.

[Pattern Ghost]

Heard about that one on the radio today.

[Pattern Ghost]

 

 

 

 

And this is where I try to be very specific with my phrasing. I do not say "all cops" for a specific reason - that reason being expressed above.

 

 

La Rose.

 

While the post I initially responded to was all inclusive, you did in fact restate this later on. I'm probably being a bit too cranky today, and I'm more than willing to bury the hatchet (IN YOUR FOREHEAD!!!!  j/k)

 

I apologize for giving offense and agree to disagree on a few of the finer points, but do agree that there is a larger problem with regards to abuse of authority by the police.

[薔薇語]

No worries. I know that the things I say in this thread have tread a very fine line so I fully inderstand your feelings of offense towards some of the things I have said. But I do try and keep my statements from being 100% inclusive, but that is that fine line I am walking.

 

Alas, as you say we must simply agree to disagree on the finer points of our arguments. Of course those are crucial points but cest la vie.

 

I still enjoy what you have to say and look forward to your posts.

 

La Rose.

[Pattern Ghost]

/grouphug

[Hermit]

You guys really are the nicest group to moderate for some days. 

 

I haven't been called a fascist in ages!

[Pattern Ghost]

Heil Hermit!