Lack of Weakness and Full Damage Resistance

[rjd59]

Need some Help!!!  Working on updating a 4th edition character to 6th edition. He has "Lack of Weakness" (cost is 5pts and has a -5 to roll) and "Full Damage Reistance" (cost is 30 pts).

 

How is the best way to represent these in 6th edition? I had a couple thoughts, but really could use advice from others who've been using 6th edition longer than I. I'm just now switching from 4th to 6th.

 

Thanks! 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I just dropped lack of weakness entirely, there is no find weakness in 6th any longer.  You could harden their defenses just to represent the concept.

 

When a character has "full damage resistance" I usually buy their defenses with the "resistant" advantage (buy PD with 0 points, choose the 'add modifiers to base characteristic' button, and apply the advantage).  If they have "half" damage resistance, I buy Resistant Protection equal to the half part and regular PD/ED to the rest.

[rjd59]

Thank you Christopher! Much better than what my thoughts were.

[Hyper-Man]

There are also some new Defensive Power options like Damage Negation that are worth taking a look at as an 'extra' defense.

 

What kind of character is it that you are updating?

[rjd59]

Uberman from "Atlas Unleahed"

[Hyper-Man]

Ahh... a surfer dude pastiche of this guy.

[rjd59]

Thank you Hyper-Man, I may steal some ideas from you also!  

[Amorkca]

I have also been looking at older characters and wanting to update them to 6th Edition, but the useful ability of Find Weakness is not available anymore.

 

would you build this as a Naked Advantage for Str or Martial Arts by using Armor Piercing? Perhaps with a skill roll?

 

Can you buy a Detect Weakness ability to find out if a character is susceptible or takes extra damage from certain attacks? To determine if a fire character takes additional damage from water attacks?

[Hugh Neilson]

A Naked Advantage like Armor Piercing that requires a skill roll works. So would extra DC's that require a skill roll, and perhaps a period of observation. Detect Weakness sounds like a game mechanic focus rather than SFX - perhaps Analyze Superpowers to determine that the character's fire powers likely render him vulnerable to water-based attacks (or that the Cold character's powers are derived from absorbing the heat around her, so that fire attack will help, rather than harm, her).

[steriaca]

Another idea might be a Transform (person to person with a temporary times 1 and 1/2 damage to all your attacks), perhaps with AVLD, Invisible Power Effect, Requires A Roll. Defense of the AVLD is "not having weak points", and should instantly heal outside combat.

[Tasha]

For Full damage Resistance, I would substitute as much Resistant Protection as I can. Then use the Resistant Advantage on the rest of the character's PD and ED.

 

For Lack of Weakness you could possibly substitute Hardened Defenses. Perhaps with a limit Only vs Skill based Armor Piercing attacks

[bigdamnhero]

For Lack of Weakness you could possibly substitute Hardened Defenses. Perhaps with a limit Only vs Skill based Armor Piercing attacks

I like this. I still use Find Weakness a lot; I just scratch-build it (Naked AP, Requires A Roll), so this would be useful. (When I write 7th Edition*, this will be a Talent.)

 

What about building it as providing a penalty against the attacker's Find Weakness Roll?

 

* No, of course I'm not serious.

[Tasha]

I like this. I still use Find Weakness a lot; I just scratch-build it (Naked AP, Requires A Roll), so this would be useful. (When I write 7th Edition*, this will be a Talent.)

 

What about building it as providing a penalty against the attacker's Find Weakness Roll?

 

* No, of course I'm not serious.

With them both have it as a Skill vs skill contest. or give the defender a target number that must be exceeded by the "find weakness" roll 

[薔薇語]

Having a decent IQ and/or maybe some relevant KS should be enough to deduce "burny man is weak to water" or "The Quantum Silhouette gives off a slight but noticable electromagnetic charge. Perhaps this reflects that while matter doesn't strongly interact with his being while shifted, electrical attacks might" or "Pointy Arrow Man (PAM), always repeats the exact same motion while reaching for his next arrow and it takes exactly .8 seconds for him to complete a shot-to-notch motion in which he is hyper vulnerable to any kind of timed attack." The first one needing no more than a normal INT role at worst, the second maybe needing a SS:Physics (etc), KS: Quantum Mechanics, PER role, etc.; the last one being mimiced with a very good PER roll. 
 

I think as a GM I would generally give bonuses to players who want to make these kinds of attempts, especially the ones using any assortment of skills they happen to have as backstory for their characters. I would probably not give them as powerful an advantage as A.P. for success but perhaps an extra one or two Combat Skill Level(s) for the attack (or one DC). If my players wanted to constantly use these kinds of tactics, I would again err on the side of allowing it. But if the players wanted to have greater effects arise from the success, then I would require them to purchase naked advantages for damage or skill levels with RSR and have the relevant skill float around and be situationally determined. 

 

Soar. 

[bigdamnhero]

With them both have it as a Skill vs skill contest. or give the defender a target number that must be exceeded by the "find weakness" roll 

What would Skill/Char you use for the defender's roll?

 

Having a decent IQ and/or maybe some relevant KS should be enough to deduce "burny man is weak to water" or "The Quantum Silhouette gives off a slight but noticable electromagnetic charge.

Good point. The old Find Weakness ability was meant to be more: "Aha, there's a weak spot in his armor" or whatever, rather than deducing Vulnerabilities/Susceptibilities; so mechanically, it was really more about creating a weakness than identifying one that's already on the character sheet. Not that the two are mutually exclusive: I've had some players take Analyze Defenses as a Skill, which lets them make the kind of deductions you cite, while also serving as the Required Roll for the Naked AP attack. And I agree other characters should be able to make the same attempts based on INT/Knowledge; just that the guy who bought Analyze is going to be better at it.

 

And of course, any time a Burny Man shows up, the players are going to try throwing water on him, with or without any kind of roll.

[Hyper-Man]

I am pretty sure the original Find Weakness was the first version of a hit-location-like effect in the original Champions 1e/2e rules. It predates the current Hit Location rules which were first introduced in the 3e stand alone Heroic games like Espionage, Fantasy Hero, Justice Inc. and Star Hero.

[Amorkca]

Has anyone tried to build Karnak from the Inhumans?  He was the definition of Find Weakness in the day...  He'd be in a lot of trouble with this new iteration...

[Hyper-Man]

I think an easier approach might be the old Piercing rules. 

 

I started to call it the anti-Damage Negation except that's already a thing (that could be included as well).

 

Just build a Secondary Blast or KA power with a custom Limitation to state that it is ONLY to reduce defenses when combined with a Primary Attack Power.  A Requires a Roll Limitation can be added as well of course. 

 

This would finally divorce the mechanics from Hit Locations completely and probably be easier to deal with than AP as it would just require using 2 different color dice when rolling damage.

 

HM

[Armitage]

The Force Analysis power in the 5e UNTIL Superpowers Database was:

Find Weakness 11- with one attack (10 Active Points); Force Fields/Walls Only (-½). Total cost: 7 points.

 

In the 6e Champions Powers, it changed to a modifier added to a specific power:

Add Armor Piercing (x2; +¾) for Force Blast (45 Active Points); Extra Time (makes whole attack take a Full Phase; -½), Only Applies Against Force-Fields (-½), Requires A PER Roll (-½). Total cost: 18 points.

(This used one of the Armor Piercing variants from the Advanced Player's Guide, allowing 1/2 defenses, 1/4, 1/8, etc. for an escalating Advantage value.)

 

If you assume that any sort of Find Weakness will be a similar power, Lack of Weakness could be represented by a Change Environment, using the same format as stealth systems.

Change Environment (-1 to Sight Group PER Rolls), Persistent (+1/4), Inherent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (6 Active Points); Only Works Against Weakness Detection (-1), No Range (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2).  Total cost: 2 points.

 

Each additional -1 to the attacker's PER Roll costs another 6 AP/2 RP.

 

I've seen some versions that use the Analysis Skill instead of a PER Roll, but Skill penalties cost the same for Change Environment.

[Amorkca]

Another idea might be a Transform (person to person with a temporary times 1 and 1/2 damage to all your attacks), perhaps with AVLD, Invisible Power Effect, Requires A Roll. Defense of the AVLD is "not having weak points", and should instantly heal outside combat.

 

Is this a legal thing? Can you use transform in this manner?

I think its a very creative way to give the Find Weakness ability. Kudos

[Tasha]

Technically Justice Inc, and Espionage are 2nd edition Champions Era they both included the Hit Location Chart. Which was carried forward into the more general Danger International which was the 3rd edition era Modern Genre HS Game.

[Hyper-Man]

Yes and no.  4e was the first edition of the rules to truly be considered universal across genres.  While Espionage! was published before Champions 3, Justice Inc came out the same year (1984).  Since ALL of them came out after 2nd Edition (published in 1982) it's arguable that ALL of them are 3rd edition.

[assault]

Champions II came out in 1982. It contained the beginnings of the modern skill system, but was definitely a 2e book. Arguably, you could call it 2.5e, given the scale of the changes it contained.

 

I'd be inclined to differentiate between Espionage and Justice Inc. It doesn't really make sense to do so, but I feel there's a tentativeness in Espionage, related to it being the first use of what later became the Hero System outside Champions. Justice Inc is more "confident". On that basis, I would be inclined to bracket Espionage with 2e, and Justice Inc with 3e. Certainly Espionage is the cruder product.

[bigdamnhero]

Is this a legal thing? Can you use transform in this manner?

With Transform, the answer is almost always: "It's legal as long as the GM allows it."  

[BoloOfEarth]

Another idea might be a Transform (person to person with a temporary times 1 and 1/2 damage to all your attacks), perhaps with AVLD, Invisible Power Effect, Requires A Roll. Defense of the AVLD is "not having weak points", and should instantly heal outside combat.

 

 

Is this a legal thing? Can you use transform in this manner?

I think its a very creative way to give the Find Weakness ability. Kudos

 

That is a creative (though expensive) way to do it. 

 

Not sure I'd allow the AVLD though.  How do you determine whether a given target has any weak points?  What's to stop a player from saying, "Oh, my character's armor doesn't have any flaws.  How?  Well, he was extra careful when he made it."