Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[Vondy]

Re RPG market size: Another factor that occurs to me is that 30 years ago RPGs were almost exclusively played by high school & college kids, whereas today they're spread across a much wider age range. Since most people tend to play with people close to themselves in age, it could seem like you have fewer people to play with even if the actual numbers have increased.

 

Re decision trees: some people love them, see the popularity of Fantasy Flight's new Star Wars game. I find them really restrictive personally.

 

FFG SW has talent trees for character design (which I don't love), but doesn't really have them for plot and resolution. In that sense, its different from video games at run time.

[bigdamnhero]

FFG SW has talent trees for character design (which I don't love), but doesn't really have them for plot and resolution. In that sense, its different from video games at run time.

Fair point.

[Markdoc]

Re RPG market size: Another factor that occurs to me is that 30 years ago RPGs were almost exclusively played by high school & college kids, whereas today they're spread across a much wider age range. Since most people tend to play with people close to themselves in age, it could seem like you have fewer people to play with even if the actual numbers have increased.

 

Yup. This is why anecdotal stories mean nothing on the grand scale of things. While living in Copenhagen, two new gaming stores opened and I started playing far more RPGs than I had done for years. Does this mean that the RPG market was expanding?  No. It means that two new gaming stores opened and I started playing far more RPGs than I had done for years. Just this, and nothing more.

 

cheers, Mark

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah the only real objective data I can offer is the statements of gaming store owners (their sales are down over the last couple decades) and the collapse of gaming stores in the area.  At least around here, definitely less RPG playin' going on.  But there are signs its coming back, so who knows?

[bigdamnhero]

The Rise And Fall of Local Gaming Stores seems to come in cycles. When I moved back to Denver 10 years ago there were a number of excellent FLGSs, which inspired more people to open their own stores, until they got to more than the local gaming scene could support, and several of them collapsed. (From what I hear there were also a few spectacularly bad business decisions behind a couple closures.) In the last couple years, we've had a few new ones open, and hopefully the pendulum won't swing too far to the other side. Throughout it all, attendance at local gaming conventions has been relatively consistent. So yeah, not sure we can read too much about the health of the hobby from store closures, even without bring up the whole Internet Thing.

[Nemblamenchisus]

I'm just going to chip in by saying that actually, Hero isn't doing too badly. It's in print. It still has a dedicated base, and name recognition outside that base. How many systems from the classic era of RPGs are really doing much better? The competition from newer systems is astronomical. Hero isn't one of the top handful of systems, like it was perhaps in the past, but now there are 100x the number of games on the market.

 

We all have ideas on what could be done to make it more successful, but I'm pretty happy with what we've got, and I'm still having success running games and introducing new players.

[phoenix240]

I'm just going to chip in by saying that actually, Hero isn't doing too badly. It's in print. It still has a dedicated base, and name recognition outside that base. How many systems from the classic era of RPGs are really doing much better? The competition from newer systems is astronomical. Hero isn't one of the top handful of systems, like it was perhaps in the past, but now there are 100x the number of games on the market.

 

We all have ideas on what could be done to make it more successful, but I'm pretty happy with what we've got, and I'm still having success running games and introducing new players.

This might be the healthiest way to look at it. Until one of us gets the rights or the support there's nothing we can do anyway. And people have been throwing dirt on Hero System/Champions casket since the late 80s and its still around. 3rd parties are willing to put out products for it. Its not a powerhouse but few games are anymore. 

[zslane]

So riddle me this, Batman: If the hobby isn't in decline, and it has as many players actively involved today that it did in the late 80s and early 90s, then why isn't Champions doing as well today as it was back then? After all, superheroes are all the rage in popular culture right now. There has never been a better time for an RPG to be all about superheroes. Why isn't there as much new official material coming out of Hero Games today as there was during the 4th ed. era?

 

There is clearly a disconnect somewhere. Because we can't have a robust hobby, and a well-designed game system aimed at an incredibly popular genre, supported by a robust and active parent company, and yet have very little to show for it in terms of exciting new product every month. In terms of gauging the health of the system, few potential newcomers are going to think the Hero System is a vibrant and active brand based on the landscape today.

[Surrealone]

So riddle me this, Batman: If the hobby isn't in decline, and it has as many players actively involved today that it did in the late 80s and early 90s, then why isn't Champions doing as well today as it was back then? After all, superheroes are all the rage in popular culture right now. There has never been a better time for an RPG to be all about superheroes. Why isn't there as much new official material coming out of Hero Games today as there was during the 4th ed. era?

 

There is clearly a disconnect somewhere. Because we can't have a robust hobby, and a well-designed game system aimed at an incredibly popular genre, supported by a robust and active parent company, and yet have very little to show for it in terms of exciting new product every month. In terms of gauging the health of the system, few potential newcomers are going to think the Hero System is a vibrant and active brand based on the landscape today.

EXISTING CHALLENGES:

1. Official support only for out-of-print books: One challenge comes in the form of a 2-volume set of officially supported 6th Edition books (with rules clarifications that reference pages within them) that you can't get your hands on in new, hardcopy form from a gaming store.  You -might- be lucky and find them in a used (gaming) bookstore or ebay store ... if the books happen to be present ... in which case you can expect to pay $125 or more dollars for the pair.
2. No official support for 'Complete' books: Another challenge is lack of official support (in the form of rules clarifications that reference pages within books, themselves) for the hardcopy 'Complete' books.  As above, you won't find these new in gaming stores, but you CAN order them new off this site -- assuming you know about it, in which case you probably aren't new to this system.
3. PDF-Only or PDF-First ... sucks:  Face it, people don't magically know to come to this site to purchase PDF's or the hardcopy books that are available ... unless they already know about Champions/Hero System and happened to have found this site, in which case they probably aren't newcomers to the offering. People with our hobby tend to want hardcopy, not PDF -- as evidenced by the walls of hardcopy books gamers tend to own.  PDF's are nice for searches and easy portability, but it's tough to build a gaming business on PDF's alone unless you have a print-on-demand offering that turns them into hardcopy ... which Hero System lacks for some inexplicable reason (given how easy it is to set up).
4. Size/Cost: What used to be a thin set of books (Champions 1st Ed., 2nd Ed., 3rd Ed.) ... that was compiled into one sub-200 page book (Champions 4th Ed.) ... suffered massive bloat with 5th Ed. Revised and 6th Edition ... and with that bloat came more cost for the materials.
5. Lack of genre/flavor books that let you get going quickly: Ok, so you've got Fantasy Hero and Star Hero, but they are far, far from pre-built worlds/modules that can be easily run with little to no effort on the GM's part and still feel distinct/separate from another Fantasy Hero or Star Hero campaign.  In order to produce a unique-feeling world, a GM has to do a LOT of up front work using Hero System ... and that's just not the case with a lot of systems.  Many let a GM quickly slam things together (or do it on the fly) ... but that's just darn tough to do well with Hero System.
6. Perceived complexity: While Hero System can be as simple or complex as the GM and his/her group want it to be (by eliminating rules that aren't desired), it takes work/effort to decide which things will be pared down.  That act, alone, is a level of complexity many systems don't have.  And then when GM and players agree on what 'optional' rules won't be used, the next step is to build out (templates, npc's, villains, villain teams, characters, devices, vehicles, bases, etc.) around what's in use -- which newcomers always describe as 'time-consuming' and 'mathy' ... even if it is just basic math.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Again, I think the assertion that the Hobby is not changed or suffering is without merit or evidence.  I think its stabilized, but has been on the decline for the last 15-20 years.  Either way, the main thing Hero needs is better PR and an easier jumping on platform so people can get into the game faster.

 

Which is connected, because the bad PR is 'too hard' which easy jump on addresses straight on.  With a few easy intro scenarios and premade settings, the too hard part disappears.

[Markdoc]

So riddle me this, Batman: If the hobby isn't in decline, and it has as many players actively involved today that it did in the late 80s and early 90s, then why isn't Champions doing as well today as it was back then? After all, superheroes are all the rage in popular culture right now. There has never been a better time for an RPG to be all about superheroes. Why isn't there as much new official material coming out of Hero Games today as there was during the 4th ed. era?

There is clearly a disconnect somewhere. Because we can't have a robust hobby, and a well-designed game system aimed at an incredibly popular genre, supported by a robust and active parent company, and yet have very little to show for it in terms of exciting new product every month. In terms of gauging the health of the system, few potential newcomers are going to think the Hero System is a vibrant and active brand based on the landscape today.

You can answer all these questions by pointing out that there are now multiple RPGs specifically addressing Superhero gaming, some of which are doing pretty well. M&M, for example has had new releases nearly every month for the last few years, and has active 3rd party support. If you check out Amazon, M&M books are outselling Hero system books by huge margins. Personally, I don't care for the game, but it seems to doing pretty well. Bash!, Icons, Savage Worlds Superheroes, etc. The market, as a whole, seems to be pretty robust, in fact.

 

That suggests it's not a market size problem. Just that the market is divided among multiple vendors.

 

Which brings me back to my original question - and I guess yours too. The supers RPG market is active and maybe even growing. Hero does not seem to catching that wave. Why?

 

Cheers, Mark

[Roter Baron]

M&M used to be build on the extremely popular D20/ OGL system and published a great amount of simply well designed and illustrated fully four-color books. At the same time Champions offered also quite a lot of 5th Edition black-and-white-books but the illustrations ranged from "okay"to "MEH!" (not counting nice stuff from Storn who I would easily consider an iconic illustrator for Champions - but he also moved to other games as well). Illustrations are a major thing and selling poinz, especially with comic-book games. The new 3rd Edition is also 100% identical with the DC Adventures game, so you have one of the most popular comic backgrounds available.

M&M addressed basicaly the same crowd - it was and is quite crunchy, and specifically aimed at adressing the genre, not multi-genre as HERO. - Besides: the electronic character-generating program Hero lab beats Hero Designer in all field every day and twice on Sunday with its arms behind its back and still doing major Knackback!

 

ICONS is quite teh opposite: A quick, easy, roll-your-superhero pick-up game but still well-supported and based on a variation of the FATE system, which seems to be all the rage for the last couple of years. It is nothing like Champions at all and is aimed at casual players or those who like a rules-light approach.

 

BASH, Truth & Justice, With Great Power and Supers all follow a rules-light approach.

 

Savage Worls Supers connects with the SW-engine, a game that is very popular if yo take a look at all the settings that Pinnacle alone offers AND supports - and it boggles the mind if you look at all the third party publishers who use the rules engine. It is also quite rules-light but especially easy for the gm to run.

 

Where does Champions 6th Edition shine?

It gives you a really well devised and smoothly running set of rules to create a hero as you imagine him to be. Here only M&M comes close - and dangerously close! So, people could also opt for that game.

The Enemies Handbooks are top-notch and give you a background that, in my humble oppion, is almost as good as that of Marvel and DC - and that is quite an accomplishment since (except for some while in the 1980s) Champions could only develop the characters and the world in its sourcebooks and had no comic, movie etc. as story-support.

 

What is missing is: Support and accessability - The Enemies handbooks are hard to get, the Backgroundbook, too and the rules-books the same. All of it could easily set you back 400 bucks for used stuff! - You can't have a popular system like that.

[zslane]

Okay, so if the hobby is still big enough for a vendor to be publishing at least one new superhero RPG supplement per month, riding the wave of popularity that superheroes are enjoying in pop culture right now, then the real question becomes why is Hero Games not doing so?

 

I am slowly becoming of the opinion that only a small percentage of the problem (of Hero System's coma-like state in the hobby) can be addressed by treating it as a rules/system/presentation problem. I think the primary problem is the lack of a highly active and financially robust company supporting it in the marketplace.

 

Sure, there is a feedback loop at work here. Product flow slows down, for whatever reason, and over time the hobby loses interest due to general lack of new product. The resulting drop-off in interest reduces the customer base, which discourages further production, which reinforces the perception that the game is dead (or mostly dead), and so on. Marketplace passivity is not how you successfully pull out of such a death sprial.

 

We're at the point where the game system is on proverbial life support, and threads asking the equivalent of "How much time does it have left, doctor?" are swirling around the interwebz. The last great "golden age" of the system occurred in the wake of the game being acquired by Iron Crown Enterprises. I sincerely believe the Hero System needs an enthusiastic and financially solvent savior to step in and breath life into it again. Otherwise the Complete rules truly will be the last "edition" we'll ever see (and I'm sorry, but it is definitely not the last edition we need, IMO).

[Christopher R Taylor]

Okay, so if the hobby is still big enough for a vendor to be publishing at least one new superhero RPG supplement per month, riding the wave of popularity that superheroes are enjoying in pop culture right now, then the real question becomes why is Hero Games not doing so?

 

 

I think you envision Hero Games as being an office somewhere with staff, a big sign out front, and lots of employees busily working.

You know what Hero games is?  Its Steve Long and he hires people to do some other jobs.  Making a book is expensive and time consuming.  You have to pay to get writing, art, layouts, editing, proofing, and printing done.  It takes a rather large layout of cash up front in the hopes that enough copies sell to pay for that and hopefully make money in addition.  If you do not have this cash... books do not get made, and that's the bottom line.

 

Hero games got a big cash infusion by selling a lot of its intellectual property to a MMOG, which it used up to do printing and publishing of the books we have available now, work on the website, etc.  Now to get a book out, they have to do kickstarters or rely on third party guys like me that grind out books on my own and put them out as pdf and print on demand.

 

If you want to put your money where your keyboard is and start putting out books, knock yourself out, I'll even hire on to write.  But acting like Hero could be doing this and just isn't is simply ignorant.  

[Manic Typist]

Been lurking this thread, and I feel like I can crystalize a lot of what has been said into a hopefully useful analogy.

 

HERO is like a really powerful game engine/OS, capable of being used to create lots of great games that span all kinds of genres/verisimilitude styles (everything from Superhot to Thief to the Witcher to... you get the point).

 

However, what many consumers want are games- the want HALO and Rainbow 6 and Thief and DoTA and Quantum Break and etc. And HERO can do those games, but the consumers don't want to build them themselves (at least at first). They want to buy, choose their difficulty setting, pick a few mods maybe from the internet, and go.

 

After they used it and see how easy it is to slot in different fan made mods (made by players like us on the boards), maybe they'd be more interested in paying for the full game engine (HERO core rules) and building their own game from scratch, modding the core games they already own on their own, playing with code, etc.

 

So, in the ideal world, HERO would find writers to work with popular IPs to release small "Complete" games (and they are Complete- they have all the rules necessary to run THAT game, just like a video game has enough software to run what it's supposed to run but it doesn't have everything that it could have if you gave the players a full developer's suite) that are fun to play and widely known.

 

Of course that takes money. I'd love to see an official Dresden Files HERO, HALO HERO, Thief HERO, Into the Borderlands HERO, etc. But HERO would have to find a way to persuade these IPs to license them the IP at a really low rate, perhaps by promising the lion's share of proceeds to the IP owner- which leaves very little incentive left over for Hero Games (Steve) and whoever is writing the actual splat books.

 

 

Does this sound like a fair encapsulation of the problem, the kinds of solutions we would like to see, and the chokepoint? Because this is what I keep thinking of.

[zslane]

I think you envision Hero Games as being an office somewhere with staff, a big sign out front, and lots of employees busily working.

 

Having an office with a busily working staff and a regular publishing schedule is my definition of a publishing business. It is what I envision for any company that aims to be relevent in the RPG industry, relevent to a degree that people are no longer wondering, "What's the health of the game system?"

 

I am keenly aware that this does not describe Hero Games, and therein lies the real problem as I see it. In my view, grassroots "Intro" projects and Kickstarter campaigns are equivalent to rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, but nobody else seems to want to admit that.

 

I have no desire to own or run a business, so I am not the solution. But that doesn't disqualify me from recognizing what the problem is and what form the solution needs to take. It seems to me that nobody wants to openly admit/discuss the uncomfortable truth out of politeness and/or a sense of futility.

[bigbywolfe]

That doesn't describe 80-90% of RPG publishers...

[Tasha]

Having an office with a busily working staff and a regular publishing schedule is my definition of a publishing business. It is what I envision for any company that aims to be relevent in the RPG industry, relevent to a degree that people are no longer wondering, "What's the health of the game system?"

 

I am keenly aware that this does not describe Hero Games, and therein lies the real problem as I see it. In my view, grassroots "Intro" projects and Kickstarter campaigns are equivalent to rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, but nobody else seems to want to admit that.

 

I have no desire to own or run a business, so I am not the solution. But that doesn't disqualify me from recognizing what the problem is and what form the solution needs to take. It seems to me that nobody wants to openly admit/discuss the uncomfortable truth out of politeness and/or a sense of futility.

 

An office with people working in it isn't currently the reality for the majority of game companies. Even PEG who publishes Savage Worlds is a part time thing. Only really Paizo and WotC are full time companies. I huge majority of game companies finance games with Kickstarter now. Savage worlds and a bunch of their licencees are doing just that. Heck, the same thing is happening with hero's third party licencees. We have had Larger than Life and Strike Force that were Kickstarters.

 

I think that some of the issue is that Hero tends to publish tool boxes. Very generic books that include everything you want to know about a genre, but leave the GM to build nearly everything. This appeals to much of Hero's fan base, who scream like stuck pigs when we talk about supplements that are full of pregenned abilities.

 

I know more than one Hero GM (Including myself) who will run other systems because the other systems are LESS WORK to run. If I run a Savage Worlds Plot point campaign, everything is included. I don't have to build anything. If I want to run anything with Hero, I have to make everything or nearly so. While that was fun 20 years ago, I just don't have the time to do that anymore.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I know more than one Hero GM (Including myself) who will run other systems because the other systems are LESS WORK to run. If I run a Savage Worlds Plot point campaign, everything is included. I don't have to build anything. If I want to run anything with Hero, I have to make everything or nearly so. While that was fun 20 years ago, I just don't have the time to do that anymore

 

Sure, and that's not an unreasonable concern.  One that can only be answered with people putting out complete products like Manic Typist describes, above.  I'm working on it, others are (like Michael Surbrook).  That's what it takes; people who love the hobby and have the passion to make it happen.  Sitting back and complaining that nobody is dropping the goodies in your lap isn't gonna make anything better.  

 

I do about 1000 bucks worth of labor on each of my books, and I know the chances of me ever getting paid for that are slim to none.  That's fine, I'd be working on gaming stuff anyway, so I just write it off: its a labor of love.  When I put a book up on the catalog here and on RPGDriveThru and on my own site, its to further the hobby, have fun, and give people a chance to have fun, too.

 

If you're concerned about the health of this or any other game system, there are five solutions:

 

1) buy the company and run it better

2) Invest in the company to give them a cash infusion

3) Buy lots of product to help them out

4) Make your own product to add to the catalog and bookshelf

5) Sponsor someone else making product, like on kickstarter, etc.

 

And who here is at the local game store asking for Hero books, suggesting they be out there, putting on games to attract players, doing games at CONs?  That's how this stuff spreads.  That's how popularity builds.  Gamers with a passion and love for what they do, out pounding the pavement, not their smart phone's screen.

[Surrealone]

And who here is at the local game store asking for Hero books, suggesting they be out there, putting on games to attract players, doing games at CONs?  That's how this stuff spreads.  That's how popularity builds.  Gamers with a passion and love for what they do, out pounding the pavement, not their smart phone's screen.

 

Probably those getting paid by the business to do so, since the things you mention are typically associated with 'marketing' and, more specifically, are often known as 'work'.  Most people tend to want to be paid for 'work' that they perform... so if you've noted a shortage of individuals doing the sort of 'marketing' 'work' of which you wrote, the business may wish to rectify it.

[Lucius]

 

okay, trying again...

 

crossposted from RPGnet

 

 

 

More complex systems seem to be more engaging for audiences. Even the slightest bit of complexity to the D&D social rules have been widely approved as a step in the right direction. Are complex rules necssary? No, none of this is necessary beyond the absolute bare bones. Are they desired and good for the game to create more robust kinds of stories, interactions, and challenges, be it a fight, a diplomatic meeting, an investigation, or building something? That's a big fat yes.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is chewing the first attempt

[Christopher R Taylor]

so if you've noted a shortage of individuals doing the sort of 'marketing' 'work' of which you wrote, the business may wish to rectify it.

 

 

Well aside from how this takes money that Hero Games doesn't have, that's not how a hobby grows.  Hobbies grow by people loving it and spreading the word, pouring their passion into the world and bring new people into it.  If nobody is willing to do that any more, well I guess we know why RPGs are not as big as they once were and Hero is suffering eh?

[Christopher R Taylor]

More complex systems seem to be more engaging for audiences. Even the slightest bit of complexity to the D&D social rules have been widely approved as a step in the right direction. Are complex rules necssary? No, none of this is necessary beyond the absolute bare bones. Are they desired and good for the game to create more robust kinds of stories, interactions, and challenges, be it a fight, a diplomatic meeting, an investigation, or building something? That's a big fat yes.

 

I think this is a good argument.  Its like the difference between T ball and softball.  The rules are harder the play is harder, the challenge is greater, and the fun is much greater, allowing for a more sophisticated and complex gaming experience. 

[bigdamnhero]

HERO is like a really powerful game engine/OS, capable of being used to create lots of great games that span all kinds of genres/verisimilitude styles (everything from Superhot to Thief to the Witcher to... you get the point).

 

However, what many consumers want are games- the want HALO and Rainbow 6 and Thief and DoTA and all Quantum Break and etc. And HERO can do those games, but they consumers don't want to build them themselves (at least at first). They want to buy, choose their difficulty setting, pick a few mods maybe from the internet, and go.

Well stated, and I think this is the key point. The biggest complaint I hear from ex-Hero gamers is "I just don;t have time to build all that stuff myself anymore."

 

And who here is at the local game store asking for Hero books, suggesting they be out there, putting on games to attract players, doing games at CONs?

I've done all of those. But I'll be honest, when I ask FLGS to carry Hero, I inevitably get two reactions: 1) "I didn't know Hero was still in business?" followed by 2) "I took a huge loss stocking 6ed books that didn't sell; I'll be happy to special order it for you."

 

Probably those getting paid by the business to do so, since the things you mention are typically associated with 'marketing' and, more specifically, are often known as 'work'.  Most people tend to want to be paid for 'work' that they perform... so if you've noted a shortage of individuals doing the sort of 'marketing' 'work' of which you wrote, the business may wish to rectify it.

I think your expectations of RPG publishing are way out of line with the realities of the industry. Most successful RPG companies rely on a loyal fan base to help be ambassadors - certainly that's been part of Savage Worlds' success! But I do think you have a point about the lack of marketing, going all the way back to 5ed. You have to spend money to make money. We're not talking TV ads - given what a niche hobby RPGs are, Hero could do a lot with inexpensive "Guerilla Marketing" stuff online and so forth. 

[Surrealone]

I think your expectations of RPG publishing are way out of line with the realities of the industry. Most successful RPG companies rely on a loyal fan base to help be ambassadors - certainly that's been part of Savage Worlds' success! But I do think you have a point about the lack of marketing, going all the way back to 5ed. You have to spend money to make money. We're not talking TV ads - given what a niche hobby RPGs are, Hero could do a lot with inexpensive "Guerilla Marketing" stuff online and so forth. 

 

My expectations of RPG publishing are presently grounded in crowd funding and/or POD (print on demand) approaches, as that's basically how it's done in today's world.  However, I spoke up about 'those getting paid by the business to' do the marketing things you mentioned because that was real 'work' you were talking about -- and anyone doing it should reasonably expect to be compensated. Put another way, it's only reasonable to expect the people who see upside from the marketing endeavors to do the marketing work. That means the owners/authors ... and anyone they pay to do such work.

 

I am, however, glad you caught my hint about a need for real marketing ... because it's been strangely absent for a while, and without it, people are prone to thinking Hero System is out of business.