Bracing with bows

[Beast]

the point is in the video Lars was bouncing around all over the place
I'd rate him as a heroic character not a bean farmer zero who just got handed a bow

that 175pts needs to mean something

 

Per RAW, Concentration gives different penalties than Brace. They're not quite the same. 

 

Brace: x1/2 DCV and can't move 

Concentration: x1/2 DCV, -3 to PER rolls, can't use Dodge and a maximum of 2m movement per phase

 

Maybe it would be better to write up bows with -2 Range Penalty instead? I'm not sure if also increasing the STR minimums by 5 points would be right.

 

At least with Concentration you can still move slowly.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Historically archers used their bows until the enemy was too close and then they would use melee weapons.  In war, they were staged behind obstacles, foot soldiers, and such to give them protection because they were usually lighter armored and more useful when able to fire unhindered.  You can technically shoot a bow at someone right in front of you, but he can swing five times in the time it takes you to nock an arrow, draw, and fire.  Its inefficient.

Almost all stunt videos with bows are done with very light pull, not drawn all the way, and tons of practice and choreography.  It looks very neat but isn't very illustrative of actual bow use.

[Beast]

we are talking about Heroic figures , not archer 278 of 10,000 ,row 3, 78th from the left ,of company A
Legaloss, Green Arrow,Hawkeye various PCs
where the bow is their thing
and even w/ a light bow and not a full draw he was punching through armor

Historically archers used their bows until the enemy was too close and then they would use melee weapons.  In war, they were staged behind obstacles, foot soldiers, and such to give them protection because they were usually lighter armored and more useful when able to fire unhindered.  You can technically shoot a bow at someone right in front of you, but he can swing five times in the time it takes you to nock an arrow, draw, and fire.  Its inefficient.

Almost all stunt videos with bows are done with very light pull, not drawn all the way, and tons of practice and choreography.  It looks very neat but isn't very illustrative of actual bow use.

[bigdamnhero]

While true, the tales of their accuracy with a bow are legendary, even while mounted.  However, they used small bows, not big long bows, and that's an important distinction.  I'd let someone buy down their speed shooting a self bow, but a long bow requires time and focus to shoot properly.

Fair point. Tho very the fact that the rest of the world was so impressed with the Mongols' ability to shoot from horseback implies it's not something everyone could do. (RAW does say you can't shoot a long bow while mounted, which makes sense regardless.)

 

Do Bracing and Concentration entail doing fundamentally different things that actually merit a halving of DCV for separate, distinct circumstances on oneself?

 

Put it another way: could you tell a difference between a character who was Braced and Concentrating vs. a character who was just Braced, just by looking at them?

That's a good way of looking at it. While Steve is right to point out that mechanically they're not the same thing, I think they might be close enough for gaming purposes. I'm leaning more towards "You're already Bracing by default."

 

we are talking about Heroic figures , not archer 278 of 10,000 ,row 3, 78th from the left ,of company A

Well no, I'm very definitely talking about both. The baseline rule, whatever it is, is for everybody, mooks and heroes alike. Heroes who want to do better than that spend points accordingly.

[Christopher R Taylor]

we are talking about Heroic figures , not archer 278 of 10,000 ,row 3, 78th from the left ,of company A

 

 

Sure, but you start at the baseline, then build up from that with points that give you extraordinary skill.  So; nobody starts with weapon familiarity.  That way the baseline is "ordinary people" not "Green Arrow."

 

and even w/ a light bow and not a full draw he was punching through armor

 

 

Modern bow, old armor, plus we don't know what it was made of.  In Hero terms, though, you'd call someone who practices for hours to do a specific task someone who bought skill levels and possibly even martial maneuvers, not base joe average archer.

[Steve]

I'd be inclined to take an existing skill like "Defensive Attack" from APG 1 (page 38) and make a new skill called "Defensive Brace" instead. Like Defensive Attack, it would give you a -2 DCV instead of x1/2 DCV. At five points for "Ranged Only" like you can do with Defensive Attack, it seems a reasonable cost to use for someone skilled with bracing and not being quite as low DCV as someone less skilled.

 

Buy a couple of points of extra DCV that only work when using this skill and you can call yourself Green Arrow at that point.

[Tasha]

Besides who cares about "realism"? We are playing a cinematic game. I would rather have bows work like they do in the majority of other games. Let supergritty games have all of the extra "realism" I will take the fun cinematic feel of what we see in movies.

[Christopher]

Historically archers used their bows until the enemy was too close and then they would use melee weapons.  In war, they were staged behind obstacles, foot soldiers, and such to give them protection because they were usually lighter armored and more useful when able to fire unhindered.  You can technically shoot a bow at someone right in front of you, but he can swing five times in the time it takes you to nock an arrow, draw, and fire.  Its inefficient.

Almost all stunt videos with bows are done with very light pull, not drawn all the way, and tons of practice and choreography.  It looks very neat but isn't very illustrative of actual bow use.

1st rule of any combat maneuver in real life:

If it takes out the enemy, it works. I life, he does not. No mater how "inpractical" the maneuver might seem for our modern eye or the untraiend eye.

Archers always only wore light to no armor and a small sideweapon (like a short sword). The one that used bow on shorter range lived longer to to teach the next generation (possibly thier sons) to do the same. "Evolutionary pressure" also works well on the battlefield. For the user thier life literally depended on it.

 

Note that all Bowusers by defintion are warriors, not farmers.

The kind of training needed to wield a bow is simply beyond something you can just do in a militia.

The militia viability was one reason the Crossbow and later gun gained traction in the first place.

 

You would not normally think about grabbing a two handed sword by the blade for leverage.

But two handed swords have a non-sharpened area just for this very purpose.

Not only were the maneuver viable, they were viable enough to modify the weapon to explicitly support it.

[Ninja-Bear]

Christopher the holding sword by blade bit, I've seen it once on the show Bones but couldn't find it on the net. Do you have a link or something that talks about it ?

[Ninja-Bear]

Have you guys ever noticed when someone posts a video of something extraordinary, a bunch of people go to disprove the video because it challenges held beliefs of what was considered real? I remeber people complaining when whats his name pulled off the karate ked crane kick in the UFC and people were saying it was staged because of course the "experts" said that that kick would never work. Fo I think that every archer should be able to do what the guy in video did? No but heroic level guys should be able to (with the points). The human body with the right genetics and training is amazing.

[eepjr24]

Christopher the holding sword by blade bit, I've seen it once on the show Bones but couldn't find it on the net. Do you have a link or something that talks about it ?

http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html#.V58_evkrJD8

 

"in Germany a more flamboyant form developed. Two-handed swords typically have a generous ricasso to allow the blade to be safely gripped below the quillons and thus wielded more effectively at close quarters. Triangular or pointed projections, known as flukes, were added at the base of the ricasso to defend the hand." (Coe et al, p. 48)

 

- E

[Hugh Neilson]

Per RAW, Concentration gives different penalties than Brace. They're not quite the same. 

 

Brace: x1/2 DCV and can't move 

Concentration: x1/2 DCV, -3 to PER rolls, can't use Dodge and a maximum of 2m movement per phase

 

Maybe it would be better to write up bows with -2 Range Penalty instead? I'm not sure if also increasing the STR minimums by 5 points would be right.

 

At least with Concentration you can still move slowly.

So there is at least something given up by the Archer in order to Brace. I also find it a bit counter to the source material that archers suffer penalties to Perception - the Archer archetype tends to be portrayed as highly perceptive. Losing Dodge seems less punitive, as he can't attack and Dodge at the same time anyway. 

 

Besides who cares about "realism"? We are playing a cinematic game. I would rather have bows work like they do in the majority of other games. Let supergritty games have all of the extra "realism" I will take the fun cinematic feel of what we see in movies.

Games? Not so sure. Source material? For sure. Hawkeye, Green Arrow, Legolas, Robin Hood - lots of source material examples for archers able to move and weave effectively. Where are the source material examples that suggest this is unusual, for proficient archers? That is, where is the Heroic-level character whose inability to move around in combat is contrasted against Legolas?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Obviously its up to the GM, but as a rule set, the base rules I believe should be based to be plausible and realistic as can be simulated as easily and fun as possible, then you add in options and abilities that can add to that for games that are more exaggerated and can do extraordinary things.

 

And yes, the 2 hander was used a lot like a quarterstaff, the more they study medieval arms and armor in Europe, the more skilled and incredible the picture becomes.  The old image of plodding tank-like knights bashing each other with swords is giving way to something more like armed martial arts.

[Christopher]

http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html#.V58_evkrJD8

 

 

- E

Half-sword techniques. Works with Longswords too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-sword

 

Yes, at first point gripping a sword at the blade sounds like a icredibly stupid idea. But situational it was such a good idea, it became it's own technique to be teached just as much as cleaving movements.

 

In bleach, Ginjo used a twohanded blade. Take a look at his fighting style while fighting Ichigo. The author did his reserach.

[akrippler]

I'd be inclined to take an existing skill like "Defensive Attack" from APG 1 (page 38) and make a new skill called "Defensive Brace" instead. Like Defensive Attack, it would give you a -2 DCV instead of x1/2 DCV. At five points for "Ranged Only" like you can do with Defensive Attack, it seems a reasonable cost to use for someone skilled with bracing and not being quite as low DCV as someone less skilled.

 

Buy a couple of points of extra DCV that only work when using this skill and you can call yourself Green Arrow at that point.

 

Fantasy book talks about firing a bow "Defensively" If you have the capacity to move (it doesn't say that it actually takes any extra time) you can fire "Defensively" effectively negating the 1/2 DCV Concentration limitation in exchange for a -4 to your OCV.  Buy 4 OCV PSL's to negate it (6 character points) 

 

 

 

 

Sure, but Legolas obviously put points into the "Full DCV With Bows" Talent, among others.*

 

 

Is that a thing? Where is it? 

[eepjr24]

Fantasy book talks about firing a bow "Defensively" If you have the capacity to move (it doesn't say that it actually takes any extra time) you can fire "Defensively" effectively negating the 1/2 DCV Concentration limitation in exchange for a -4 to your OCV.  Buy 4 OCV PSL's to negate it (6 character points) 

To "have the capacity to move" means you have to have time to do so. Nocking an arrow takes half a phase, the attact action (shooting the bow) takes another half phase. Thus, no capacity to move. That was why I mentioned either nocking the arrow on the previous phase (thus giving you time in the attack phase) or taking Fast Draw to eliminate the half phase for nocking and drawing altogether. Then you could freely use the PSL to offset the -4 OCV. It looks like you are using 5e costs, so points are different for me. I use 6e where it would only cost 4 character points for one bow type (short bow) or 8 points for all bows or 12 points for all weapons (or at least all with the concentration requirement that applied).

 

Is that a thing? Where is it? 

Folks are arguing here for a house rule or house created power done various ways, that is what he is referring to. Talk to your GM, they may allow the creation of such a thing and it would be up to them to determine the point cost.

 

- E

[bigdamnhero]

I'd be inclined to take an existing skill like "Defensive Attack" from APG 1 (page 38) and make a new skill called "Defensive Brace" instead. Like Defensive Attack, it would give you a -2 DCV instead of x1/2 DCV. At five points for "Ranged Only" like you can do with Defensive Attack, it seems a reasonable cost to use for someone skilled with bracing and not being quite as low DCV as someone less skilled.

Not a bad idea. Of course for many Heroic characters, 1/2 DCV only translates to maybe -3 anyway, so it's only really going to be cost effective at higher OCVs.

 

Besides who cares about "realism"?

Um, I do, actually. Hence me asking the question and all. The game I'm currently running is meant to feel more historical and less over-the-top action movie. If that's not your game, fine. But I get a little tired of being told I'm Doing It Wrong because I sometimes enjoy playing games that are less cartoonish.

 

I would also say that IMO having every mook with WF Bows able to move like Legolas is neither realistic nor faithful to most source material.

 

1st rule of any combat maneuver in real life:

If it takes out the enemy, it works. I life, he does not. No mater how "inpractical" the maneuver might seem for our modern eye or the untraiend eye.

I believe CT was using "impractical" as a nice way of saying "completely insane and suicidal." Please point to one historical example of archers using bows in melee combat? We allow it in RPGs because it's fun, but it was never a thing in real life. That's why archers were always kept behind the front lines, and always carried a melee weapon to fall back on in case the enemy reached them.

 

Have you guys ever noticed when someone posts a video of something extraordinary, a bunch of people go to disprove the video because it challenges held beliefs of what was considered real?

Have you ever noticed when someone posts a video of something that looks extraordinary, and people with actual expertise in the subject point out all the ways in which the video is clearly staged/rigged/faked, a bunch of people refuse to listen because it challenges their beliefs of what they consider cool? [/snark]

 

Look, I thought that video was impressive when I first saw it too. Then I showed it to some friends who've been shooting bows for decades. Not a single one of them found it even remotely credible, and they took great pleasure in pointing out all the BS that was obvious to them but had been invisible to me. So yes, I value their informed expert opinions more than my uninformed dilettante one. Granted, you don't know my archer friends - or me, really - so don't take my word for it. Go to an SCA event or your local archery range or bowhunting club, show them the video, and listen while they mock it endlessly.

 

And do I really have to point out: it's a self-edited YouTube video? Anyone can look like a god on YouTube - just do something a few hundred times and only post the one time you got lucky.

 

All that aside, if you want to allow that sort of stuff in your game because it's fun and fits your campaign, great. But the fact that we're so impressed when One Guy can do it just underlines the point that not everyone can do it. In other words: he put a lot of time and effort into learning how to do it. In Hero, we simulate that by spending points on stuff.

 

Hawkeye, Green Arrow, Legolas, Robin Hood - lots of source material examples for archers able to move and weave effectively. Where are the source material examples that suggest this is unusual, for proficient archers? That is, where is the Heroic-level character whose inability to move around in combat is contrasted against Legolas?

You mean aside from literally every other character in 12 hours of LOTR? Legolas' ability to do those things is precisely what makes him stand out.

 

All the characters you mention are specialists whose whole shtick is that they can do things with a bow that no one else can. So yes, if you want your character to be That Guy, great - there are several ways you can build that. But if every mook with WF: Bows can do it, that actually makes my Awesome Archer specialist Character less cool by comparison.

 

Is [Full DCV With Bows] a thing? Where is it? 

It's a Custom Talent, not in the books. (I thought they had it in an earlier edition of FH, but I'm not sure which?) This thread talks about some different ways to build it. Or you can just buy enough CSLs with Bow that it doesn't matter.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I built the maneuver as a martial arts move: +5 DCV, only for maintaining full DCV while shooting with a bow.  For fantasy campaigns, that's close enough to full DCV.

[Surrealone]

Please point to one historical example of archers using bows in melee combat? We allow it in RPGs because it's fun, but it was never a thing in real life. That's why archers were always kept behind the front lines, and always carried a melee weapon to fall back on in case the enemy reached them.

Archers were kept behind the font lines because they were a] lightly armored and b] usually landed individuals above the rank/file peasants who typically served as foot soldiers -- not because they were using bows.  Asking for historical context for the use of a bow as a melee weapon is probably unfair and unrealistic, as it'd most certainly have been used as a last-ditch weapon if the lines were broken and the bowmen didn't have time to draw their secondary weapons -- but I doubt anyone would bother to document or record that (assuming the bowmen lived).

 

This article addresses all of that: http://history.stackexchange.com/questions/25585/is-there-any-historic-record-of-using-a-wooden-bow-as-a-club.  The answer within it even contains references...

[dmjalund]

I don;t see why you can't move while nocking an arrow

[eepjr24]

I don;t see why you can't move while nocking an arrow

Are you talking in game? Because the rules say you need a half phase to move? If you mean in real life, sure, but you have to make allowances in a game for balance reasons. If they don't make sense to you or your GM, just ignore them. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Sure, you can.  And archers do.  But if you fire while moving, you're going to suffer a penalty.

At least in England, the archers were made up of the peasants and such.  It was a law for a long time that all males had to practice with a longbow on Sundays, actually.

[Christopher]

I believe CT was using "impractical" as a nice way of saying "completely insane and suicidal." Please point to one historical example of archers using bows in melee combat? We allow it in RPGs because it's fun, but it was never a thing in real life. That's why archers were always kept behind the front lines, and always carried a melee weapon to fall back on in case the enemy reached them.

In melee? Not quite. At that point you draw the short sword. Or run. Or club them with the bow.

 

On the kind of short range shown in the video? Hell yeah! Again, if it kills the enemy so you live* it is a good idea.

The video prooves a bow can be used on a ranges most people would associate only useable with Firearms "because you can not fire them that fast"**. And still take someone out effectively.

 

One of the reasons the romans gave every Legionaire a Pilum was that they could be used on short ranges against a charge, and then you could quickly draw the weapon.

The other reasons were less training time, better to lock down shields, and not being able to be thrown back.

 

 

*Or at least limits how many better armored, better armed guys you have to fight in melee the as soon as they reach your line.

 

**Wich as the video prooves is not true on average heroic combat ranges.

 

Sure, you can.  And archers do.  But if you fire while moving, you're going to suffer a penalty.

At least in England, the archers were made up of the peasants and such.  It was a law for a long time that all males had to practice with a longbow on Sundays, actually.

If you got to practice 1/7th of the week, then you are professional soldier in my book.

While the Longbow was an extreme here (longest range, longest training) it somewhat applies to all bows. You need strenght. Nobody wielding a bow would be untrained in using said bow.

[Steve]

I'm thinking that my earlier suggestion to build a -2 Range Modifier into bows for a -1/4 Limitation might be the simplest alternative to the current builds using Concentration. Someone with only a little training could use Brace to offset that. If they want their full DCV, full PER and also retain the ability to move before shooting, then just buy 2 PSL levels to offset the negative range modifier with bows and call it a day. Maybe Extra Time (delayed Phase) could be used as well, to show the time it takes to get an arrow ready.

[Ninja-Bear]

Bigdamnhero I get what your saying but even experts fall into the trap of "I can't do it so it must be false". Jackie Chan has out takes on his movies does that take away from his skills? Om saying this because I should have said earlier that ibtoo have fallen into this trap. : )

 

& about bows being used in hand to hand. CT wasn't suggesting that that was a standard or even a good tactic but if you got overwhelmed, as in Kill or be Killed states, do what ever you need to kill. Btw no one memtion American Indians and their bow skills. Wonder how they compare and contrast?