Hero Games Maps - What do YOU want to see?

[keithcurtis]

Hi Everyone,

 

As some of you may know, I'm responsible for most of the maps that have appeared in Hero Games since DoJ resurrected the company. My next major map endeavor (after Sharper than a Serpent's Tooth) will be Fantasy Hero Battlegrounds. Up until now, my philosophy in map design has been to produce the kind of map that I, as a gamer, would like to have.

 

However, I'd like to know what the Hero community as a whole would like out of a published map. Maybe you've thought of something really cool that has totally escaped me. Maybe there's something I do that totally annoys you. Maybe there's something I do that is confusing that needs to be re-thought, or something cool that I should do more of. I can't promise I'll implement any of your suggestions, but I'd like to hear your input.

 

Although I have FH: Battlegrounds in mind for this thread, you can talk about maps for any genre.

 

Before you respond, let me make a couple of things totally clear at the beginning.

 

1. Please don't ask for maps of specific objects.

I am an artist, not a writer. I have zero control over the content of the books. If you want a castle map, ask the writer of the appropriate book. You could however remark on something about previously published castle maps you hate or like.

 

2. Hero not be producing to-scale foldout maps.

All maps will have a maximum size of an 8.5" x 11" page.

 

3. Please don't ask for color.

Hero Games has no current plans to publish in color. It would be nice, but it's not going to happen.

 

Other than these three points, please feel free to discuss, request, or criticize any aspect of Hero System Maps, particularly the type for FH: Battlegrounds.

 

Keith "Heroic Cartographer" Curtis

[TheEmerged]

What would I most want to see? To be honest, what I'd most want to see are non-paper maps -- that is, maps on .jpg or somesuch so I can print them out at the scale I want (insert crack about that 8.5 x 11 limitation here).

[keithcurtis]

Have you looked into Shades of Black? The maps there are in postscript format, infinitely superior to jpegs for what you're talking about. The probelm with jpegs and GIFs is that they are not scaleable. If you print them larger, you just get larger pixels.

We went through great pains on SoB to make sure the art remained in a scaleable format. This meant dropping some things like transparency and patterns, but the maps should make clean printouts even if you could print them the size of a football field.

 

Keith "Adobe Illustrator is my friend" Curtis

[BobGreenwade]

Well, first a disclaimer: I haven't yet seen your work in Champions Battlegrounds. I don't yet own the book, and my first chance to peek at it won't come for another two or three weeks. I therefore have no idea what you've done with this so far, so keep in mind that some of the things I'll bring up may be things you're already doing.

 

In general, I tend to think of gaming maps in two categories: combat maps, and handouts. Most of what I assume you're talking about is combat maps, so I'll focus on those first.

 

First, a combat map needs to cover all the area that the combat is likely to take. This includes not only the main building in question, but also the immediately surrounding area. How big "the immediately surrounding area" includes varies according to genre and expected power level, but in most cases an extra city block or two is the most you're likely to have to worry about (and that's at the extreme).

 

Second, cover all of the major objects that could serve as obstacles, weapons of opportunity, or other complications. Walls, doors, windows, furniture, emplaced weapons, and the like all fall into the "Department of Duh," but don't neglect things like table lamps, kitchen appliances, and other potential weapons of opportunity. I've also run into situations where I needed to know the placement of the breaker box or the water heater in a building. I've even had or seen Champions characters for whom the location of such things as smoke alarms, electrical outlets, microwave ovens, or telephones would make a difference. If you can find some simple way of noting all these on a modern-day map without needing a lot of extra space or cluttering the map too badly, please do.

 

As to handouts, having at least one in any published adventure is a good thing. For these, verisimilitude is the order of the day -- make it look like what the cartographers of the day would give the PCs. Having seen your work on Savage Earth, I know I don't need to go into any detail about fantasy worlds (except perhaps to make them not necessarily 100% accurate). A modern-day handout map would look like something Rand McNally or some similar company might produce. For something in the future, give it the visual ethic of the future culture.

 

In both cases, it would be very nice if Hero Games could make the maps from a given book available as downloads in CC2 format -- probably for a nominal fee. The battle maps in particular could then be printed out to scale on a plotter, or with whatever resource the GM has available.

[AnotherSkip]

Notations of light sources could be made, (think thief 1/2) stealth should be an option whenever possible.

 

I'm not really interested in modern maps ( having many interesting maps from my brother who works at Hilton Hotels)

 

I will agree with darn well needing archetectural maps including plumbing and wiring (Shadowrunners believe that bathrooms are their best friends) as well as stud spacing (i can easily break through interior walls with my fist in the right palce). However much of this can be either inferred or simply side noted.

 

Sometimes the way to solve a mission is to be a plumber or electrician.

A gm should not have to scramble to answer some of the questions.

though of course you cannot answer everything.

 

Do the best that you can to include everything, while not getting it too cluttered.

 

 

"Go not to the elves for advice for they shall both say no and yes".-J. R. R. Tolkien

[Monolith]

What I would like to have is a group of maps which break down Millennium City by streets. One map for Downtown, one for Rivertown, etc. That way each district gets coverage. The street breakdowns that GRG did for San Angelo were wonderful. It would be nice to be able to visualize the "sketchy" areas of the Plaza, or just what does Rivertown or the Waterfront looks like. I would also like to see a slightly larger overview of MC, showing exactly where the airport and suburbs are, for example. I would pay good money to have a map of Millennium City in pdf!

[Vondy]

The best map I've ever seen for a fantasy game was the 3-D map of Castle Ravenloft in the original Ravenloft adventure.

[Fitz]

Modular generic maps -- that's what I'd like to see (assuming we're not talking about specific location maps here). Having maps of complete office buildings or taverns or fire stations is all very well, but they get familiar awfully fast.

 

I'd like to see the equivalent of those architectural prefab planning modules, which can be rearranged and mixed and matched to make new and exciting locations for the PCs to smash to pieces.

 

That means including add-on pieces like elevator shafts, stairwells, horse troughs, gibbets, death star force field control pylons, etc.etc. as well as the standard 5-sizes-of-rectangular-room bits.

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by BobGreenwade

Well, first a disclaimer: I haven't yet seen your work in Champions Battlegrounds. I don't yet own the book...

I also have maps in Viper, Coils of the Serpent, Ninja Hero and cartographic maps in Terran Empire, if you have any of those products.

 

Originally posted by BobGreenwade

First, a combat map needs to cover all the area that the combat is likely to take. This includes not only the main building in question, but also the immediately surrounding area.

I think you'll be happy with some of the maps in STAST. Some of them combine an area map with a blowup of the main battleground.

 

Originally posted by BobGreenwade

...don't neglect things like table lamps, kitchen appliances, and other potential weapons of opportunity. I've also run into situations where I needed to know the placement of the breaker box or the water heater in a building. I've even had or seen Champions characters for whom the location of such things as smoke alarms, electrical outlets, microwave ovens, or telephones would make a difference. If you can find some simple way of noting all these on a modern-day map without needing a lot of extra space or cluttering the map too badly, please do.

If I focus on a small enough area, say a single room, I think I could include some of those things, light switches or telephones in particular. But I think they might tend to clutter the drawing if I include every last item in the room.

 

Originally posted by BobGreenwade

...make it look like what the cartographers of the day would give the PCs.

I have tried to do this to some degree. The TE maps for instance use white on black for a lot of the lettering, and I chose a more futuristic font. For FHB, I'm not sure yet what I will do. I am using a vector drawing program, something that looks hand-drawn. But I ill definitely try to capture the flavor of the genre.

 

Originally posted by BobGreenwade

...it would be very nice if Hero Games could make the maps from a given book available as downloads in CC2 format -- probably for a nominal fee. The battle maps in particular could then be printed out to scale on a plotter, or with whatever resource the GM has available.

Unlikely we will use CC2. It's nice for game maps, but I would never approach a professional printer and ask them to accept such an offbeat format. It's not a professional level graphics program of the stature of say Adobe Illustrator, or Macromedia Freehand. If someone more familiar with the program can correct me on this point, I'd be happy to listen. Also, does CC2 translate files from Illustrator and vice versa? Does it work on a Macintosh?

 

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Originally posted by AnotherSkip

Notations of light sources could be made, (think thief 1/2) stealth should be an option whenever possible.

When a light source is not obvious, I try to do so. Chandeliers have been noted on some maps, subway tunnels have had lights indicated on others. When it has some strategic potential, I will try to pay attention to that detail in the future.

 

Originally posted by AnotherSkip

I will agree with darn well needing archetectural maps including plumbing and wiring (Shadowrunners believe that bathrooms are their best friends) as well as stud spacing (i can easily break through interior walls with my fist in the right palce). However much of this can be either inferred or simply side noted.

 

Well, I'm not a plumber nor an electrician, so I think such details would be a bit beyond my capabilities. I'm not adverse to throwing in a light switch or two, but do you really playing with that level of detail? Unless you're plotting out exactly the space down to the inch where your character puts his fist, couldn't you just roll a d6 and hit a stud on a 6? I think this would have to fall into the realm of GM winging. I can't provide that level of detail in an accurate and meaningful manner, and I doubt that a GM who could tell the difference would need my feeble attempts.

Also, I doubt Hero games would be willing to pay me for the amount of drawing and research time that would take.

 

 

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Originally posted by Monolith

What I would like to have is a group of maps which break down Millennium City by streets. One map for Downtown, one for Rivertown, etc. That way each district gets coverage. The street breakdowns that GRG did for San Angelo were wonderful.

This comes a little close to asking for specific content, but I though you might be interested in Steve's plans for Hudson City. Although we discussed this over a year ago, I believe Hudson City will have more street detail than MC. I'll have to take a look at San Angelo's street maps; thanks for the reference! For city maps and other non-tactical maps, authors usually have to tread a fine line between giving enough detail to make them playable, and still have enough grey area to allow GMs to customize or future authors to include their own ideas.

 

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Finally, Fitz, that sounds like a cool product and one I'd like to work on. But like I said, I'm just the artist. I have no control over what they assign me to map.

 

Keith "Thanks folks, keep 'em coming!" Curtis

[Daryl]

Thanks for soliciting opinions, Keith. I'm not a fantasy gamer, but I am interested in maps for other genres (anything modern, really).

 

I didn't buy Battlegrounds because there weren't electronic versions of the maps. What I most want from electronic maps are these features (in order of importance):

 

1. Scalable (PostScript, like you already mentioned, or even better, PDF).

 

2. Editable: individual elements can be selected and modified in Adobe Illustrator or similar package. It's not helpful if the object is all one path.

 

3. Broken into 8.5x11 sections that can easily be stitched together when printed or copy and pasted into larger formats

 

4. In color (just because they would be printed in the books in black and white doesn't mean we have to forego color in the files).

 

--d

[Insaniac99]

there is only ONE thing I care about for the maps (I'll find out some use for them one way or another)

 

I want DUrability! I haven't used the orriginal maps that came with the resource kit because I'm afraid of getting a tear or spill on them, I want maps that can double as a table cloth for even the messiest eaters!

[farik]

my pet peeve about the resource kit maps was the scale. If the map is a HERO product and it has hexes I want the hexes to represent 1" in game terms if that means the hexes need to be smaller or larger so be it.

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by farik

my pet peeve about the resource kit maps was the scale. If the map is a HERO product and it has hexes I want the hexes to represent 1" in game terms if that means the hexes need to be smaller or larger so be it.

 

I agree to a point. I have always tried to provide a scaled hex grid in every map. Sometimes the maps are of city sections or other large areas. In those cases, I have either forgone a grid or made the hexes equal some easy multiple of standard, such as x3, x5 or x10. If the hexes need to be a sixteenth of an inch to remain in scale, then they would only be confusing.

 

There was a section of Michigan in Shades of Black where I used 1 km mega hexes just in case anyone had a megascaled power.

 

In any case, I agree totally that a realistic scale is paramount.

 

Keith "hexed" Curtis

[Bartman]

Originally posted by farik

my pet peeve about the resource kit maps was the scale. If the map is a HERO product and it has hexes I want the hexes to represent 1" in game terms if that means the hexes need to be smaller or larger so be it.

Mine is somewhat similar. Make sure that the scale for everything is correct. Far too many maps have had 6' wide chairs, 18' long dining tables in apartments, 12' long beds, 100' long hallways in suburban homes, etc. If 2m = 1" then make sure everything fits that scale. Nothing throws me off a map more than inconsistancies in scale.

 

Note: Keith this is not at all intended to necessarily criticise your maps. I'm not GMing anything at the moment. And at my GMs request I have avoided looking at Battlegrounds and SoB. So I can't say if they have had the same problems as many previous maps.

[mattingly]

I like the angled view from the HSRK, instead of the top-down view.

[Old Man]

A tavern and inn, of course, with enough headroom to swing from the balconies and with nearby alleyways included.

 

A mountain pass with ledges and a precipitous drop. Perhaps also a rope bridge.

 

A market square.

 

A temple to Set.

 

An elven or Robin Hood treehouse village.

 

The entrance to a Dwarven stronghold.

 

Complete deck plans for a two- or three-masted ship (with optional gun deck). Detailed enough to include all the ropes, sails, boats, cleats, barrels, and anything else that might be used to buckle a swash.

 

All of Lankhmar at the usual 2m per hex scale.

 

A forest road with suitable ambush points and a camp site.

 

A ruined keep, I suppose. (yawn)

 

There actually needs to be a series of these--there ought to be complete maps for a large castle or other stronghold, and for a pretty large medieval city including streets, alleys, shops, temples and large dwellings.

 

And to go further off topic, I'd like to point out that one good visual aid for outdoor adventures is a hiking/outdoor magazine like National Geographic Adventure. Lots of nice (if small) photos of unspoilt wilderness, and the occasional topo map of Everest.

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by mattingly

I like the angled view from the HSRK, instead of the top-down view.

 

That's something I have done occasionally, since it only works for certain types of maps. In general, whenever I have a street scene, I use one-point perspective. It helps to get a feel for the relationships between tall buildings. There was one in Battlegrounds and there are at least two in Sharper than a Serpent's Tooth.

 

Perspective maps take more time to do and work better as battlemats, but I will keep that in mind. When possible, I agree, they do add to the feal of the map.

 

Keith "Can't think of a sobriquet" Curtis

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by mattingly

I like the angled view from the HSRK, instead of the top-down view.

 

That angled view is exactly what I didn't like. I've only used the maps a few times during actual game play, and the the angle of the walls led to some confusing about how far something is from something else when hear the wall. It wasn't that big a deal, but I didn't like it.

 

Other than that, the only think I can think to mention is detail. Don't do it. To be perfectly honest, I like to know where the table lamps and foot stools are too, but I like to be the one to decide where they go. If I have a map that already has all of the detail drawn into it, then I either have to use it as is, or draw my own map (which I really wouldn't be needing anything published in the first place). If all I see is an empty room, perhaps with a suggestion or list of contents in the text or key, then all I have to do is copy it, enlarge it (if necessary) and use it for play, drawing in what I need to when it's printed.

[Spence]

I just got my copy of CB. The Construction Site section is exactly the type of mapping I love to see. For larger areas, like the Galleria, the way you denoted "1 Game hex" is a very useful touch. the map scale is too large to make the printing of game hexes over the complete map useful. But placing hexes over the "empty" halls puts a scale right by almost everything.

 

Up thread you mentioned that using CC2 would probably not happen. My question is about using PDF format. I make most of my maps in CC2, can I re-scale and print the the PDF maps using Reader, or will we have to lay out the price of a small car to by the full version program? Now remember I am not that familier with the whole adobe thing, but the last time I looked at a full version of the Adobe program that allows you to edit and publish PDF's it was fairly pricey. Targeted I would guess, toward commercial business use not private hobby use. Is there a more cost effective version of adobe that allows the manipluation of PDF maps and pictures, mainly resize, adding GM notes, and then printing, I am not familier with?

 

As for the CC idea, there are many herophiles who would be glade to assist in converting existing maps into CC format and they could then be available for download. I myself would be glad to give it a crack once my personal situation settles down, sometime in July 04.

 

Anyway just a few ideas.

[Steve Long]

In re: Campaign Cartographer (CC), I use it to prepare the rough maps for the books I write, which Keith then turns into publishable maps using his cartographic wizardry. (Allen just prepares his maps by hand.) In general, I'm not going to make my CC2 maps available to people; they're not of sufficient quality that I want to show them to anyone but Keith. However, for at least one upcoming project -- the complete mapping of Hudson City -- I have spoken briefly with the ProFantasy folks about working out something with their corps of master mappers to turn my work into something we could sell.

 

Now, we'll still get Keith to do the maps for the books, regardless, because his work is so awesomely kewl -- but we're not going to be able to print all my HC maps if I map the city in 1-2 square mile blocks as I plan to. However, if the CC2 folx make them look and work better than I can, we might sell the lot of 'em as a download or on CD or something. That way, if you want to run a car chase in your Dark Champions campaign, you can by God and by gumption know exactly where the cars can go. (Assuming, of course, you want that level of detail in your game; not everyone will.)

[Spence]

Originally posted by Steve Long

However, for at least one upcoming project -- the complete mapping of Hudson City -- I have spoken briefly with the ProFantasy folks about working out something with their corps of master mappers to turn my work into something we could sell.

 

Hudson City is one of the product lines I have been avidly waiting on. I have always prefered lawer powered supers and HC has been my favorite citytype of those that have been published. The DC line are tagged as "buy as soon as possible".

 

I did have a thought which may or may not be feasable. ProFant has a section of their site where people can send in maps they have made which are then posted for free download. Some are high quality some are not. But they all are maps . It would be cool if someone made a map of a store, say an apothacary in HC's version of chinatown, and could post the map. This would create an expanding resource for GM's. Of course it would also create problems for you so I don't know if you would ever consider it effective from your of DoJ's perspective. And I REALLY wouldn't want you or anyone else at Hero to split you attention from the Hero lines in ANYway that would lower the quality.

 

By the way, I just received my copies of CKC, CB and VCotS. I need a second copy of CKC to cut and fill. I usually have one copy of an enemies book where I have the binding cut an place the sheets in doc protectors and a ring binder. I then just pull the sheets I actually need for a game. But I just wanted to say I think CKC and CB are really well done and I love the maps in CB. I haven't read VCotS yet. But flipping through looks great.

[keithcurtis]

Thanks for the nice comments, Spence (and Steve). I do my bestest.

 

As for printing from Adobe Reader (the newest name for the same product), this is probably only an issue with Shades of Black or Digital hero, the only publications to have published digital maps, IIRC.

 

The method I suggest (and I haven't actually done this since for some reason Reader doesn't like my printer driver) is to select a portion of the map you want to print with the "Select Image" tool in the tool bar. Then when you select Print you should see a page preview that holds only that portion of the image which you should be able to scale to your heart's content. It should print at full the resolution of your printer. Andy and I took pains to make sure they remained in vector format.

 

I like your idea of submitting (informal and unofficial) locations to Herodom at large. That kind of resource is always appreciated. I would assume they would have to be informal, or at the most a Digital Hero article.

 

A dream project I have had for some time (dream because of time commitments), is to have a regular column in DH where I would devlop an area as a printable game map, and include little minis of all prominent NPCs along with a short adventure. I'd just have to find time to churn out an effective module 10 times a year.

 

Keith "got a little'un to take care of" Curtis

[Catacomb]

What about specific areas of real cities...Chicago, New York, LA, Dallas, Chicago, Detroit, Seattle, Chicago?

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by Catacomb

What about specific areas of real cities...Chicago, New York, LA, Dallas, Chicago, Detroit, Seattle, Chicago?

 

I doubt those would be high on DoJ's list, since the amount of real world info and maps on such places is staggering. My suggestion to all gamers whose game is set in the Real World , and even many whose are not:

Get an AAA membership. Not only do you get free road assistance, but free maps of just about anywhere. Including the cities mentioned above.

 

Keith "Checking mailbox for monthly endorsement check from AAA" Curtis

[Captain Obvious]

Originally posted by keithcurtis

the maps should make clean printouts even if you could print them the size of a football field.

 

Keith "Adobe Illustrator is my friend" Curtis

 

Sweet! I'm definitely picking this up before I start my Champions LARP!