HS 6e is mechanically the best version of the rules; dissenting views welcome

[Ninja-Bear]

6 hours ago, Toxxus said:

 

Only because of wildly bad writing and power level inconsistency.

 

The same spider man who can lift 5-10 tons and is fast enough to dodge bullets.  In one write-up part of spiderman's bullet dodging prowess was attributed to the fact he was so quick that he could actually see the bullets coming.

 

Some normal judoka is going to give him any trouble at all?  Complete BS.  I have a brown belt in judo and a black belt in TKD and some other training and someone with spiderman's strength and speed would have me mutilated by the end of the first Segment 12.

 

Rope tricks?  Against someone who can dodge bullets?  Not sure if anyone has compared the muzzle velocity of a lasso recently, but I'm betting it's 50-100x slower than a bullet.

 

I HATED those comics.

i Have a friend (who I just recently found out also wrote some comics) mention that it’s “unrealistic” for the Flash to ever be hit at all if he can move the speed of light. However he agrees to that in the sake of Drama for either a show/comic or a game, the Flash could get hit.

 

And to be fair Toxxus when the Judo guy was introduced , Martial Arts was a “super power” . 😁

[TranquiloUno]

6 hours ago, Toxxus said:

 

Only because of wildly bad writing and power level inconsistency.

 

The same spider man who can lift 5-10 tons and is fast enough to dodge bullets.  In one write-up part of spiderman's bullet dodging prowess was attributed to the fact he was so quick that he could actually see the bullets coming.

 

Some normal judoka is going to give him any trouble at all?  Complete BS.  I have a brown belt in judo and a black belt in TKD and some other training and someone with spiderman's strength and speed would have me mutilated by the end of the first Segment 12.

 

Rope tricks?  Against someone who can dodge bullets?  Not sure if anyone has compared the muzzle velocity of a lasso recently, but I'm betting it's 50-100x slower than a bullet.

 

I HATED those comics.

 

Meh.

A hero who can't be threatened would be dull AF. A hero that can only be threatened by "realistic" threats (in a comic book?!) would be dull AF too.

Shifting *comic book* hero abilities and capabilities are extremely par for the course IMO.

 

I mean...Captain American can probably beat up Spidey and he doesn't even have a brown belt in Judo.  ;D

And Spidey can't dodge a heavy spinning disc?! 

Unrealistic! Spidey should just auto-win because one time somebody said he was fast enough to see bullets coming!

 

Part of the point of comic book martial arts is...the comic book thing. Ways to give folks extraordinary abilities that might not "make sense" here in reality but work just fine as a "Special Effect Based" rules system.

 

The special effect is just the "It's JUDO!" parts. Same as "proportional strength and speed of a spider" = Dex 36\Str 40 or where ever you like to set it.

 

 

Not that I thought you were being Super Serious Business or anything, but...c'mon.

 

Karate Kid, Shang-Chi, Iron Fist, Judomaster, Batman, Deathstroke (dude can hit The Flash), Captain America, and so on.

Plenty of examples of just "normal" martial artists throwing down with supers in the source material.

Even if it's not "realistic".

 

You know what I find unrealistic though is all those armored supers like Iron Man that never get splattered all over the insides of their fancy suits during high-speed impacts. I know, I know, "initial dampeners". Unrealistic! Armor suit guys should all be forced to take Susceptibility to Sudden Stops and such!

 

I'm more in the Marvel No-Prize camp:

 

Spidey (particularly in The Enforcers days) wasn't a very experienced combatant and definitely wasn't trained. I think he gets bonus points for "The White Belt" effect (where the white belt does something so...weird that black belts get caught by it) because he's effectively untrained but using his speed and strength and flexibility to do stuff that shouldn't work at all.

That said I've seen smaller martial arts guys beat larger, stronger, faster, younger folks by virtue of being better than them.

I think that's partly what we're wanting to model here.

Judo and such can work quite well against larger\stronger untrained folks because of all that usual stuff (leverage, timing, the other person not knowing wtf is happening).

 

So Fancy Dan can indeed fight Spidey (back in the 250pt days) by using his superior training against a talented but untrained and inexperienced teenager. Particularly when you factor in the multi-attacker\team-up bonuses and potential entangles from the lasso and all of that with his friends around.

 

Of course it's more likely that comics written in the 60s weren't exactly making any attempt at all in anyway to model a "reality" that would be self-consistent and remain consistent for 20-30+ years in to the future, eh?

 

Anyway, like I said, I don't think you were super serious but...within the fictional world of comic books this all makes perfect sense to me from both a dramatic sense and a play-balance sense.

And more so than the comics being able to portray this consistently (nothing is consistent in comics) I'd think our beloved Hero system is the thing that is burdened with having to be consistent.

And I feel certain any of us can build a 200pt Very, Very Skilled Normal that can at least challenge a 250-300pt Spidey. Particularly if he's got his other 200pt Very, Very Skilled Normals along for the ride.

 

Bunch of Speed 3s can still mess up a Speed 6s day. Viper Agents. Agents in general. Fancy Dan and Ox and Montana.

 

 

[Spence]

On 6/22/2019 at 11:04 AM, Brian Stanfield said:

It seems like you don’t even need #3 as long as people are willing to share their adventures at no cost. I’m not sure how the licensing works, but maybe it would be possible to have an adventures section in the downloads page of herogames.com where people could share their adventures with the rest of the community. No one profits from it, and it wouldn’t be compromising any IP . . .

 

The adventures really wouldn’t even have to be all that complex or complete. They’d need just enough to give people the tools to run an adventure right away. Characters & villains, the main point of conflict, and a series of interactions, and you have something playable. 

 

I wonder if anybody would be willing to try something like this?

 

This misses the point.  People buy games they can play.  In today's gaming world that means adventures and campaigns that can be played as is, or can be easily adapted.  And the adventures and campaigns they look for are "official" ones.

 

Besides, people sharing adventures is the model Hero has been following since the later half of 4th Ed. 

 

Hero needs a commercial presence.  And that requires something different.

[Hugh Neilson]

3 hours ago, TranquiloUno said:

Spidey (particularly in The Enforcers days) wasn't a very experienced combatant and definitely wasn't trained. I think he gets bonus points for "The White Belt" effect (where the white belt does something so...weird that black belts get caught by it) because he's effectively untrained but using his speed and strength and flexibility to do stuff that shouldn't work at all.

 

Montana - that was his name - thanks!

 

Who did Spidey fight in the early days? 

 

Amazing Fantasy #15 - a burglar

Issue #1  - Fantastic Four; Chameleon

#2 - Vulture, Tinkerer

#3 - Doc Ock

#4 - Sandman

#5 - Dr. Doom (not a straight-up fight)

#6 - Lizard

#7 - Vulture again

#8 - a robot; Human Torch

#9 - Electro (thug with blast and flash)

#10 - The Enforcers

#11 & 12 - Doc Ock's back

#13 - Mysterio (SFX guy with a fishbowl on his head)

#14 - Green Goblin (pumpkin bombs and flying broomstick) guest stars Hulk

#15 - Kraven (Chamelon in the background)

#16 - Daredevil and Ringmaster

#17 - Green Goblin (Torch guest stars)

#18 - Sandman

#19 - Sandman, Enforcers, Torch

#20 - Scorpion

 

A lot of "thug with a schtick" enemies in Spidey's early days.  He was an untrained kid with spider-powers.

 

How many of those opponents should be able to connect with a 12 DCV/35 DEX Spider-Man?

[Ninja-Bear]

7 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Montana - that was his name - thanks!

 

Who did Spidey fight in the early days? 

 

Amazing Fantasy #15 - a burglar

Issue #1  - Fantastic Four; Chameleon

#2 - Vulture, Tinkerer

#3 - Doc Ock

#4 - Sandman

#5 - Dr. Doom (not a straight-up fight)

#6 - Lizard

#7 - Vulture again

#8 - a robot; Human Torch

#9 - Electro (thug with blast and flash)

#10 - The Enforcers

#11 & 12 - Doc Ock's back

#13 - Mysterio (SFX guy with a fishbowl on his head)

#14 - Green Goblin (pumpkin bombs and flying broomstick) guest stars Hulk

#15 - Kraven (Chamelon in the background)

#16 - Daredevil and Ringmaster

#17 - Green Goblin (Torch guest stars)

#18 - Sandman

#19 - Sandman, Enforcers, Torch

#20 - Scorpion

 

A lot of "thug with a schtick" enemies in Spidey's early days.  He was an untrained kid with spider-powers.

 

How many of those opponents should be able to connect with a 12 DCV/35 DEX Spider-Man?

If I recall from reading the original reprints, not too many actually did hit Spidey in the day.

[Ninja-Bear]

Oh and Hugh what’s the 12 DCV from? Is Spidey dodging? Then no but Spidey didn’t dodge all day so say his natural DCV is 9, we can eek out a reasonable OCV of 6 for the opponents so that’s 8- to hit. That seems like the Comic books? 

 

Btw did I tell you Doc Ock bought AoE-accurate? You know if all his limbs punch at the same time, one should hit! 😁

[Brian Stanfield]

2 hours ago, Spence said:

 

This misses the point.  People buy games they can play.  In today's gaming world that means adventures and campaigns that can be played as is, or can be easily adapted.  And the adventures and campaigns they look for are "official" ones.

 

Besides, people sharing adventures is the model Hero has been following since the later half of 4th Ed. 

 

Hero needs a commercial presence.  And that requires something different.

I appreciate your point, and agree with it, but that ain’t going to happen any time soon. My point is that if we start with baby steps and a steady stream of “fan produced” adventures, available in a central location, perhaps enough of a demand could kickstart some “official” material. Not likely, but better than rubbing two wet sticks together and hoping. 

[mallet]

The problem I think with comparing say a Champions buy and play adventure and a D&D one, is that characters in D&D are pretty much “set”. This is because of classes and levels. A level 5 fighter in any D&D campaign is going to be close to in powers and abilities to any other 5th level fighter in hundreds of other D&D campaigns. Because the character creation rules are set in stone. 

 

That is not the case in Champions and Hero in general. 

 

In Champions a 350pt hero in one campaign can be wildly different from any other 350 pt hero in every other Champions campaign. 

 

One could fly and pass through walls, another can control minds, another could shoot and control fire, and on and on. 

 

And then hen there are all the stop sign powers that any particular gm may or may not allow. 

 

It it is very hard to make a buy and play champions adventure when the writer has no idea which of hundreds if not thousands of different abilities any particular group of heroes might have. 

 

In comics the writers control who the hero’s fight. Daredevil doesn’t fight Galactus, Flash almost always fights other speedsters, silver surfer doesn’t fight street thugs. But in a for sale adventure the writer had no idea what type of heroes will be playing in it, so that makes it hard and hardly ever makes it something that any gm can just pick up and play unlike D&D adventures. 

[assault]

2 hours ago, mallet said:

It it is very hard to make a buy and play champions adventure when the writer has no idea which of hundreds if not thousands of different abilities any particular group of heroes might have. 

 

In comics the writers control who the hero’s fight. Daredevil doesn’t fight Galactus, Flash almost always fights other speedsters, silver surfer doesn’t fight street thugs. But in a for sale adventure the writer had no idea what type of heroes will be playing in it, so that makes it hard and hardly ever makes it something that any gm can just pick up and play unlike D&D adventures. 

 

Superhero adventures have been being published for various systems for about 40 years now. For most of that time, this has included Champions.

 

Aside from official Hero Games products (including magazines), this has included adventures dual or triple statted for other systems, as well as a swag of adventures published in various magazines. The latter included Space Gamer, Different Worlds, White Dwarf and other more obscure ones. (I don't recall any in the Dragon, although there were Champions articles published in it.)

 

Obviously, most of these are for earlier editions, requiring a bit of revision.

 

A lot of the adventures published for other games require only rough character conversions. Not quite pick up and play, but fairly quick for GMs that don't over complicate their characters. Unfortunately, that's the style which GMs have tended to be taught for the last few editions.

 

The point is that there is a massive pool of examples of how to write and publish adventures for Champions and other superhero RPGs.

[Brian Stanfield]

6 hours ago, mallet said:

The problem I think with comparing say a Champions buy and play adventure and a D&D one, is that characters in D&D are pretty much “set”. This is because of classes and levels. A level 5 fighter in any D&D campaign is going to be close to in powers and abilities to any other 5th level fighter in hundreds of other D&D campaigns. Because the character creation rules are set in stone. 

<snip>

It it is very hard to make a buy and play champions adventure when the writer has no idea which of hundreds if not thousands of different abilities any particular group of heroes might have. 

 

3 hours ago, assault said:

The point is that there is a massive pool of examples of how to write and publish adventures for Champions and other superhero RPGs.

 

If you're responding to my idea above, @mallet, it really isn't a "buy and play" concept. I'd expect a great deal of open-endedness in that sort of adventure to help alleviate some of the problems you (rightly) point out. Let the professionals figure that out.

 

What I'm envisioning is simply a free pool of stuff other people have successfully played and are willing to make available to other people on the forums. Each contribution could have a cover page explaining some of the constraints, assumptions, and expectations in that particular adventure so people could make an informed choice. And, as always, they could be customized. It's usually easier to tweak something already made than make something from scratch. 

 

A pipe dream, indeed, but not all that far-fetched if people agreed to do it. Many people are already posting their campaigns in the forums already. It would be nice to centralize it all so we can find pre-made and pre-played adventures if we find ourselves in a pinch.

[Hugh Neilson]

11 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Oh and Hugh what’s the 12 DCV from? Is Spidey dodging? Then no but Spidey didn’t dodge all day so say his natural DCV is 9, we can eek out a reasonable OCV of 6 for the opponents so that’s 8- to hit. That seems like the Comic books? 

 

Btw did I tell you Doc Ock bought AoE-accurate? You know if all his limbs punch at the same time, one should hit! 😁

 

The 12 DCV is from Spidey's 35 DEX in a typical Supers game where 35 DEX is "high DEX super".  If we give him a 9 DCV, then all those standard 23 DEX characters hit him half the time.

 

But if we give pudgy scientist Doc Ock an 8 DEX, and 3 CVs naturally (as far as combat goes, he's lucky to be average - take the arms away and would he stand a chance in a bar fight, in Spider-Man #3), now Spidey's 26 DEX makes him Amazing.

 

Now we need Doc's arms.  Accurate?  I would not go that far.  But +6 OCV, being +2 for each extra tentacle used?  Sure.  Now he can Grab Spidey on a 10- (50%, recalling his -1 OCV for Grab) flailing out with all his tentacles, and get a Strike in on 11-.  So, does Spidey attack (and, if he does, does Doc abort to block or add defenses by getting those tentacles in the way), and risk counterattack with only his base 9 DCV to protect him?  Does he Martial Dodge to steer clear of those tentacles, at the cost of his own action?  Doc Ock is a credible threat.

 

Characters need to be measured against each other.  If we assume that the SpiderVerse has an automatic bump to 23 DEX and 8 CVs for anyone who puts on a costume and/or takes a fancy name, Spidey needs at least 30 or 32 and 10-11 CVs to keep up, more if his opponents start moving up to 26 DEX, 9 base CVs  But if we assume that high school football star Flash Thompson's 15 DEX can run rings around pudgy old Otto Octavius (and it should), then Spidey can have much lower stats and still be Amazing.

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

7 hours ago, mallet said:

The problem I think with comparing say a Champions buy and play adventure and a D&D one, is that characters in D&D are pretty much “set”. This is because of classes and levels. A level 5 fighter in any D&D campaign is going to be close to in powers and abilities to any other 5th level fighter in hundreds of other D&D campaigns. Because the character creation rules are set in stone.

 

While true to some extent, I have seen issues with published modules where assumptions fail.  Will all L5 groups have a Fireball or Lightning Bolt?  What if their Arcane caster is a sorcerer?

 

7 hours ago, mallet said:

That is not the case in Champions and Hero in general. 

 

In Champions a 350pt hero in one campaign can be wildly different from any other 350 pt hero in every other Champions campaign.

 

Sure.  But we can set parameters for CVs, DCs, etc. to narrow the scope.

 

This, to me, is where the AP concept would really shine, in narrowing the scope even more.  Set the range for CVs, DCs, defenses, SPD, etc.  Scope out certain powers - they just are  not allowed in this particular campaign.  That makes it even easier for the author of the adventure.

 

[Doc Democracy]

5 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

While true to some extent, I have seen issues with published modules where assumptions fail.  Will all L5 groups have a Fireball or Lightning Bolt?  What if their Arcane caster is a sorcerer?

 

 

Sure.  But we can set parameters for CVs, DCs, etc. to narrow the scope.

 

This, to me, is where the AP concept would really shine, in narrowing the scope even more.  Set the range for CVs, DCs, defenses, SPD, etc.  Scope out certain powers - they just are  not allowed in this particular campaign.  That makes it even easier for the author of the adventure.

 

 

I think it would be more helpful for the author to suggest what to do for characters that have a power you might not want in the scenario. 

 

If it clairsentience that would destroy the plot, then the author should seek to provide something that nobbles the clairsentience and provides something else for the character involved.  It might be that an early encounter exposes the clairsentient character to an artefact that overwhelms the sense, taking it out of commission for the scenario.  The character then discovers that if she focusses on an object like she was going to use the clairsentience, it suffers catastrophic integrity failure and falls apart (RKA, NND, Does BODY, inanimate objects only).  That way the character gets a fancy new power to play with during the scenario.

 

Doc

 

[Toxxus]

16 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

And to be fair Toxxus when the Judo guy was introduced , Martial Arts was a “super power” . 😁

 

It was pretty bad in the 70s and 80s.  I recall one episode of The Hulk where an elderly woman fought the Hulk to a stand still using Aikido.

 

See, it doesn't matter that the Hulk is a 1000 pound monster that moves with terrifying speed and violence.  You just have to sidestep and use his own energy against him....

 

I took a year of Aikido at the University of Hawaii and I promise you - this is fiction of the worst sort.

 

A well executed Judo or Aikido move will let you do something to an opponent with a fraction of the strength to do it without technique.  But this fraction is on the order of 1/2 or 1/4.

 

It is not the 1/50,000 you would need to do something to the Hulk.

[Toxxus]

16 hours ago, TranquiloUno said:

A hero who can't be threatened would be dull AF. A hero that can only be threatened by "realistic" threats (in a comic book?!) would be dull AF too.

 

I don't mind interesting match ups and I understand that some extreme characters (like The Flash) have to toss realism and consistency out the window in order for there to be a threat by non-speedsters, but it still has to feel consistent.

 

If Spiderman is facing a completely normal 3 year old boy and gets KO'd by an angry swat on the knee - nobody is going to enjoy that story.

 

So, creepy circus themed freaks just need a moment of backstory enhancement to justify supernatural or superhuman ability.  They have to have a reason they can hit a bullet-dodging Spiderman.

 

I recall an equally jarring episode of Spiderman where he was facing the Punisher that had a mix of clever and stupid writing.  At one point the punisher punches himself in the chest which confuses Spiderman even though his danger sense is going off.  The sleep gas explodes from his chest compartment and it's a great surprise move.

 

Later and this next part was unforgivably !@#$ writing by Marvel Comics - Punisher is blasting ineffectually at the agile Spiderman and somehow as Spiderman flips through the air the Punisher shoots both of his webshooters off his wrists.

 

Spiderman complains he's been caught mid-leap and can't do anything to dodge.  Oh, I don't know, you could move your wrists one !@#$ing inch to the side??!! 

 

So. Bad.

 

I just want some narrative consistency.  It doesn't have to be perfect nor especially scientific, but sometimes the writers are painfully lazy and just a single tenuous excuse on how character X can now (temporarily perhaps) face character Y would go a long way.

[ghost-angel]

The problem with this topic is that it's trying to pin internal consistency across a genre that is inherently inconsistent; no two writers are going to keep the character 100% consistent unless forced to, and over time dozens and dozens of writers have had their hand at stories with comic characters. Any given story is probably going to be consistent, but once another writer takes over, it's not the same characters in anything but name and costume.

[Doc Democracy]

My son is now 14.  He is heartily sick of my repeated response to the question of who would win between two characters...."Whoever the writer thinks will make the best story".  He has however started using it with his friends....

 

Doc

[TranquiloUno]

4 hours ago, Toxxus said:

 

It was pretty bad in the 70s and 80s.  I recall one episode of The Hulk where an elderly woman fought the Hulk to a stand still using Aikido.

 

See, it doesn't matter that the Hulk is a 1000 pound monster that moves with terrifying speed and violence.  You just have to sidestep and use his own energy against him....

 

I took a year of Aikido at the University of Hawaii and I promise you - this is fiction of the worst sort.

 

A well executed Judo or Aikido move will let you do something to an opponent with a fraction of the strength to do it without technique.  But this fraction is on the order of 1/2 or 1/4.

 

It is not the 1/50,000 you would need to do something to the Hulk.

 

I certainly agree with you from a realism perspective. But I also suspect this perspective is based on and biased by actually knowing some martial arts.

Something like the gunkata from Equilibrium seems...kinda dumb given what I know of shooting.

Same for martial arts.

 

Comic book martial arts aren't really supposed to be IRL martial arts IMO. They're just another Special Effect.

 

Just like I don't think there is a real martial art that'll let me turn my hands "like unto a thing of iron" but it's ok that Iron Fist can do that.

To me at least. If an Aikido Granny gets to manhandle The Hulk with aikido well...yes that sounds dumb, and if it was a RPG I'd give the GM some serious stinkeye for this railroady bullshit, but since it's a comic book...totally fine.

[TranquiloUno]

4 hours ago, Toxxus said:

 

I don't mind interesting match ups and I understand that some extreme characters (like The Flash) have to toss realism and consistency out the window in order for there to be a threat by non-speedsters, but it still has to feel consistent.

 

If Spiderman is facing a completely normal 3 year old boy and gets KO'd by an angry swat on the knee - nobody is going to enjoy that story.

 

So, creepy circus themed freaks just need a moment of backstory enhancement to justify supernatural or superhuman ability.  They have to have a reason they can hit a bullet-dodging Spiderman.

 

I recall an equally jarring episode of Spiderman where he was facing the Punisher that had a mix of clever and stupid writing.  At one point the punisher punches himself in the chest which confuses Spiderman even though his danger sense is going off.  The sleep gas explodes from his chest compartment and it's a great surprise move.

 

Later and this next part was unforgivably !@#$ writing by Marvel Comics - Punisher is blasting ineffectually at the agile Spiderman and somehow as Spiderman flips through the air the Punisher shoots both of his webshooters off his wrists.

 

Spiderman complains he's been caught mid-leap and can't do anything to dodge.  Oh, I don't know, you could move your wrists one !@#$ing inch to the side??!! 

 

So. Bad.

 

Ugh. Terrible. This is why (among other reasons) Punisher should live in Marvel MAX and everybody else should...not.

 

4 hours ago, Toxxus said:

 

I just want some narrative consistency.  It doesn't have to be perfect nor especially scientific, but sometimes the writers are painfully lazy and just a single tenuous excuse on how character X can now (temporarily perhaps) face character Y would go a long way.

 

Sure and I can totally understand that but also as even a casual comic reader you gotta know that's never gonna happen.

Worf Effect, different writers, etc, etc.

 

Not sure why Batroc got to give Captain America such a hard time in Winter Soldier. He's just a normal.

And yet....it was a nice little fight. And I'm pretty sure it goes about the same in the comics.

 

I figure, again, No-Prize style, that if a GM, er, I mean a writer, is going to throw a threat at a PC, or other fictional character, that the threat will be...you know, a threat.

I don't think there's a strong need to preface that with a lot of exposition about how\why it's possible.

 

But, all that said, I totally understand your complaints both regarding martial arts giving you superpowers (I wish!) and also inconsistency between writers, eras, and so on.

[Ninja-Bear]

6 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

The 12 DCV is from Spidey's 35 DEX in a typical Supers game where 35 DEX is "high DEX super".  If we give him a 9 DCV, then all those standard 23 DEX characters hit him half the time.

 

But if we give pudgy scientist Doc Ock an 8 DEX, and 3 CVs naturally (as far as combat goes, he's lucky to be average - take the arms away and would he stand a chance in a bar fight, in Spider-Man #3), now Spidey's 26 DEX makes him Amazing.

 

Now we need Doc's arms.  Accurate?  I would not go that far.  But +6 OCV, being +2 for each extra tentacle used?  Sure.  Now he can Grab Spidey on a 10- (50%, recalling his -1 OCV for Grab) flailing out with all his tentacles, and get a Strike in on 11-.  So, does Spidey attack (and, if he does, does Doc abort to block or add defenses by getting those tentacles in the way), and risk counterattack with only his base 9 DCV to protect him?  Does he Martial Dodge to steer clear of those tentacles, at the cost of his own action?  Doc Ock is a credible threat.

 

Characters need to be measured against each other.  If we assume that the SpiderVerse has an automatic bump to 23 DEX and 8 CVs for anyone who puts on a costume and/or takes a fancy name, Spidey needs at least 30 or 32 and 10-11 CVs to keep up, more if his opponents start moving up to 26 DEX, 9 base CVs  But if we assume that high school football star Flash Thompson's 15 DEX can run rings around pudgy old Otto Octavius (and it should), then Spidey can have much lower stats and still be Amazing.

 

 

Is it me though but you’re still using the DEX and CV are couples model? I’m aware that even in 6th, the guidelines for Supers CV hasn’t changed. That’s probably due everything grandfathered in. However this is a 6th ed thread so if we throw away the notion that CV range for a Supers is set in stone, how would that look? Spidey can have a higher DEX without breaking any CV concerns which means the “normals” may not have to buy up high amounts of CSLs just to be competitive. Also shakily characters have equal OCV and DCV now as a base? This is where game play and perhaps genre convention should override benchmarks. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Toxxus your example of the Hulk vs Aikido Granny reminds me of two things.

 

1) I saw a commercial for Louis and Clark where Superman gets thrown by a ninja and I thought “No way” and in a ninja guy.

 

2) I wonder if this promoted even indirectly for Aaron Allston for introducing Max lift and what you can throw in Ninja Hero 4th. As I understand it, that wasn’t a rule before so in theory you could do that in a Champions game.

[Spence]

21 hours ago, Brian Stanfield said:

I appreciate your point, and agree with it, but that ain’t going to happen any time soon. My point is that if we start with baby steps and a steady stream of “fan produced” adventures, available in a central location, perhaps enough of a demand could kickstart some “official” material. Not likely, but better than rubbing two wet sticks together and hoping. 

O.K.

 

I misunderstood.  But the things you describe are what has been keeping Hero's life support going for the last 5 10 years.  It is common knowledge around my area that Hero went out of business years ago.  And for proof they point out that none of the big distributors carry it.  Perception outweighs reality every time. 

 

Hero needs to get actual NEW product with the Hero logo out there.  I fully understand that it isn't viable for Hero or high end gaming writers to commit to traditional products using traditional methods.  But if they fast forward to 2019, there is a built in zero risk method to get new product flowing. 

 

Unfortunately, I doubt we will see it here.

[Hugh Neilson]

4 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Is it me though but you’re still using the DEX and CV are couples model? I’m aware that even in 6th, the guidelines for Supers CV hasn’t changed. That’s probably due everything grandfathered in. However this is a 6th ed thread so if we throw away the notion that CV range for a Supers is set in stone, how would that look? Spidey can have a higher DEX without breaking any CV concerns which means the “normals” may not have to buy up high amounts of CSLs just to be competitive. Also shakily characters have equal OCV and DCV now as a base? This is where game play and perhaps genre convention should override benchmarks. 

 

Definitely agree that maintaining the pre-6e norm took out a lot of the value in divorcing CVs from each other and DEX from CV.  But Spidey is not a low CV character either.  The question is just how high his OCV and DCV have to go to be "Spider-Man", and the answer is "it depends".  It depends principally on who we are comparing him to.  If his opponents have OCV 3 - 5, then a 7 or 8 DCV is Amazing.  If the standard OCV for his opponents is 8-10, his DCV must rise to compensate.

 

But looking at his early foes, which ones logically had a high OCV?  Few, if any.

[Hugh Neilson]

 

18 hours ago, mallet said:

In comics the writers control who the hero’s fight. Daredevil doesn’t fight Galactus, Flash almost always fights other speedsters, silver surfer doesn’t fight street thugs. But in a for sale adventure the writer had no idea what type of heroes will be playing in it, so that makes it hard and hardly ever makes it something that any gm can just pick up and play unlike D&D adventures. 

 

First off, again the AP works well.  An AP designed for street-level Supers can have street thugs and provide guidelines for Daredevil-style characters while a Cosmic Heroes AP can provide completely different guidelines.  Practically, how many home games feature Daredevil and Silver Surfer fighting side by side?  Either DD got a power up or SS got a power down.  But if we design both with 12 DC attacks, 20 - 25 defenses, comparable CVs and SPD, then they can easily work together.  Neither one is likely to be threatened by street thugs or be a threat to Galactus (unless, of course, we make Galactus DC 15 with 30 defenses and Damage Reduction, and OCV easily capable of hitting anyone on the team - a tough single opponent).

 

BTW, Flash in the comics has about the most diverse rogues' gallery of any Super, including only a few speedsters.

[Ninja-Bear]

Hugh thanks for the clarification.  Yup I can see Spidey  CV 8 . Perhaps he should have some Lightning Reflexes with a successful Danger Roll? (Now that goes into having a Characteristic based character which would be easier for new players or more “precise” and complex builds.)