Perceptions of the game change

[Duke Bushido]

Wait a minute.  Back up.

 

 

I can't shake the feeling that Chris is trying to tell us something.....

 

 

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

23 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

Anybody got a spare unique villain or two they want to donate to the fan-bult adventures idea?  (my 2e write ups will likely not cut the mustard.  )

 

 

 

I never ran Champions all that much, as my comics choices wandered away from superheroes, toward the independent comics after 1983. So I don’t have any villains of that stripe any more. However Fantasy Hero was my jam thanks to being in the.Original Fantasy Hero playtest. I am willing to contribute fanzine articles, and some of my rediscovered campaign notes if that would help. 

[steriaca]

2 minutes ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 

I never ran Champions all that much, as my comics choices wandered away from superheroes, toward the independent comics after 1983. So I don’t have any villains of that stripe any more. However Fantasy Hero was my jam thanks to being in the.Original Fantasy Hero playtest. I am willing to contribute fanzine articles, and some of my rediscovered campaign notes if that would help. 

Hey Scott,

 

Evil wizards, dragons, undead and stuff will work for a supervillain. Heck, Skelator is a supervillain in all but modern cloth.

[Scott Ruggels]

Just now, steriaca said:

Hey Scott,

 

Evil wizards, dragons, undead and stuff will work for a supervillain. Heck, Skelator is a supervillain in all but modern cloth.

Ha!  But I was more of a cast of characters GM. I ran a very political fantasy game with murky morality and a lot of travelogue. I had a few Medium Bad Evil Guys, But negotiating was possible depending on how they were approached. Powerful Wizards were politically connected, and Dragons had become nobles in exchange for military services. This was not a campaign for swashbucklers. XD. 

 

I do do have a monster that might be useful, and I ran them against players in convention one shots. I will see what I can dig up. Post it here, or would this need it’s own thread? 

[Duke Bushido]

I reckon a new thread? 

 

Those who find inspiration from it could then throw their stuff up there, too. 

[Trechriron10]

12 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

I reckon a new thread? 

 

Those who find inspiration from it could then throw their stuff up there, too. 

 

I assume you're answering my post...

 

I can start a new thread. But we need a handful of people to make it fly. I'll be working on some of my own worlds as well.

[Spence]

On 7/15/2019 at 12:55 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

People are talking about intro adventures. Why not just use Mob Rule? Providing of course we had permission. And if possible, use the old 4th ed characters. Btw for sample characters, I would say to keep them around 300 CP.-which is now pretty much how they translate to in 6th. I feel they are much easier to manage.

 

For me any product discussed here is aimed at Bob & Barbera Gamers who want to try Champions/Hero from just the books with no one to explain or demo the game.  Those people will most likely be D&D or PF players and will look for the supporting adventures from Hero Games.  I have personally seen it happen.  I had arranged for CC books to be on the shelf of my FLGS.  But no support material killed it everytime.

 

On 7/15/2019 at 1:02 PM, Duke Bushido said:

Guys, the comment was originally something of a fantasy, but I am getting sort of excited about it. 

 

The only problem is writers are everywhere; some of us do it just because we can't not do it. 

 

Art, however, is much harder to come by. 

 

The more I think about it, the more I think we, as a fan base, could easily create a whole new world for this game (we all do it individually, after all). 

 

As for making it the "new official," though....  I would have no idea how to about that, unless we could get Jason et al to make it an "official" alternate universe or something....  Maybe some place where the 4e characters are still the Champions...  Except Defender.  I think he belongs to Cryptic now. 

 

The game definitely needs something.  The current autopilot isn't working.  And I don't have a clue about Champions Now except "it can't support adventures"???? Or some such?

20 hours ago, Sketchpad said:

 

These can still be feasible prices depending on how much a company wants to make, and how big of a book you expect to buy. I make villains for another system under my Sketchpad Studio company and sell most of them for only 99¢ per copy. These are typically 3 pages with a full background, stats, and a color illustration. I don't make a ton off them, but it's enough to buy a new book here and there. 

Exactly. Miskatonic Repository & DM Guild are another couple examples of this.

[Ninja-Bear]

Spence if you get a chance, relook at Mob Rule. It has advice for new GMs on how and whys the scenes were designed. Add in the player roster from 4th BBB. And I would add also though perhaps give each one a hero and villain option from 3rd edition. Plus I would have a section on-perhaps a page on the campaign build itself. If it’s Standard Campaign then fine. Again afaik, CC doesn’t have anything spelt out saying the sample Characters are built with this assumption. I personally think the grunt VIPER agents should be weaker and the stats from BBB should be reserved for the 5 man teams. Also throw in then some plot ideas for VIPER from the BBB too. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Also add in how the GM can then create a new Nest based on what players want. For example, Arrowhead can be used as a straight merc for the Nest.  Perhaps the new Nest is more mystically minded so either Witchcraft is hired as a consultant or she takes over the Nest. Perhaps Green Dragon is working for the Nest and is trading the agents to be Masters of Kung Fu!  With him either disregard the background where he worked for them before and left or perhaps there’s a compelling reason why he’s working again with that particular Nest. Or the new Nest are really wind up toys designed by the Black Harliquin.

[Ninja-Bear]

Funny thing about Perception. Savage Worlds is touted as a generic and easy system to learn. Which it does in some respects but I’ve found that really with their Edges can be very micro managing. And since each game has special rules unto themselves, it’s not a flexible as many people assume it to be. I ran across a thread where Micheal Surbrook had a hard time grinding the system.

[Duke Bushido]

Can someone clue me in as to just what Mob Rule is (other than the actual impediment to justice, if course)? 

 

Thanks muchly. 

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, Trechriron10 said:

 

I assume you're answering my post...

 

I can start a new thread. But we need a handful of people to make it fly. I'll be working on some of my own worlds as well.

Sorry for the confusion. 

 

Ni; I was referring to Scott's offer to toss up a spare villain (unless that was you and I've gotten totally lost). 

 

Again: my apologies. 

[Spence]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Spence if you get a chance, relook at Mob Rule. It has advice for new GMs on how and whys the scenes were designed. Add in the player roster from 4th BBB. And I would add also though perhaps give each one a hero and villain option from 3rd edition. Plus I would have a section on-perhaps a page on the campaign build itself. If it’s Standard Campaign then fine. Again afaik, CC doesn’t have anything spelt out saying the sample Characters are built with this assumption. I personally think the grunt VIPER agents should be weaker and the stats from BBB should be reserved for the 5 man teams. Also throw in then some plot ideas for VIPER from the BBB too. 

Too funny.  I didn't know Mob Rule was an actual book.  I thought you meant mob rule, as in rule of the mob. 

 

I stand corrected and will need to look it up. 

 

[assault]

9 minutes ago, Spence said:

Too funny.  I didn't know Mob Rule was an actual book.  I thought you meant mob rule, as in rule of the mob. 

 

I stand corrected and will need to look it up. 

 

 

It was the Viper's Nest equivalent in the BBB.

[Spence]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Funny thing about Perception. Savage Worlds is touted as a generic and easy system to learn. Which it does in some respects but I’ve found that really with their Edges can be very micro managing. And since each game has special rules unto themselves, it’s not a flexible as many people assume it to be. I ran across a thread where Micheal Surbrook had a hard time grinding the system.

Well SW is really easy and does "two fisted action" really well. 

 

But IMO it does not scale well.  With more experienced the PC or builds with characters more powerful than a an action hero I found the wheels began falling off and took a lot of effort GM wise to keep it going.

[Spence]

2 minutes ago, assault said:

 

It was the Viper's Nest equivalent in the BBB.

Now I am really embarrassed.  I completely forgot. 

[Scott Ruggels]

<----<<

Did someone say Art?

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

12 minutes ago, Spence said:

Well SW is really easy and does "two fisted action" really well. 

 

But IMO it does not scale well.  With more experienced the PC or builds with characters more powerful than a an action hero I found the wheels began falling off and took a lot of effort GM wise to keep it going.

 

Interestingly enough, HERO has the same problem when going _down_ the scale.   Well, "fall apart" may be a bit severe, but it loses pretty much all the granularity.  6e's intro of CV as a Characteristic _may_ solve that going forward (certainly it's a tool to do so), but I'm willing to be the bulk of "Heroic" level characters end up within one point of each other, possibly two for outliers.

 

This really struck me with the weapons examples, even as far back as the original Champions book.  I figured there was something I was missing.  I invested (over time) in 3g3, More 3g3, and the massive Talisorian compendium (which is sitting on my shelf but whose name totally escapes me) just to see if it was something _I_ was doing wrong.  I've poured over the HERO-published books for examples of "real" weapons to see what I was missing.

 

Nope.  Unless you're invoking Sci-Fi, Supers, or Magic, the weapons pretty much boil down to "Gun," "Knife," "Big Knife" and "Bomb," doing within a couple of _pips_ of each other in damage.  It's so frustrating as make you absolutely _disgusted_ with yourself for the research into muzzle speed, projectile size and weight, etc-- just _wanting_ to give some flavor to your games, only to find out "yep.  It's a gun.  'Reckon I'll just toss it in this barrel labeled 'GUNS' and see who wants what."

 

We found a remarkably simple way to deal with the scaling problem, but it died with the dissolution of the original group.  By then 4e was out, and the new guys just weren't having a lot of home-brew (yet ).

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Spence said:

Now I am really embarrassed.  I completely forgot. 

 

Don't feel bad.  I've got 5 BBB and one softcover 4e Champions (BBB: Reduced Penetration) on my shelf and I, too, had forgotten.

 

In our defense though, I expect it's been a _while_ since either of us has looked at the Campaigning section in that book.     (Well, except when I need to Xerox Cheshire Cat, of course.  I really like the look of 4e Cheshire Cat; I find it orders of magnitude better than the other offerings)

 

 

5 minutes ago, Scott Ruggels said:

<----<<

Did someone say Art?

 

 

 

Sir, those of us who can't draw say it _all the time_...  

 

 

[Spence]

28 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

Interestingly enough, HERO has the same problem when going _down_ the scale.   Well, "fall apart" may be a bit severe, but it loses pretty much all the granularity.  6e's intro of CV as a Characteristic _may_ solve that going forward (certainly it's a tool to do so), but I'm willing to be the bulk of "Heroic" level characters end up within one point of each other, possibly two for outliers.

 

This really struck me with the weapons examples, even as far back as the original Champions book.  I figured there was something I was missing.  I invested (over time) in 3g3, More 3g3, and the massive Talisorian compendium (which is sitting on my shelf but whose name totally escapes me) just to see if it was something _I_ was doing wrong.  I've poured over the HERO-published books for examples of "real" weapons to see what I was missing.

 

Nope.  Unless you're invoking Sci-Fi, Supers, or Magic, the weapons pretty much boil down to "Gun," "Knife," "Big Knife" and "Bomb," doing within a couple of _pips_ of each other in damage.  It's so frustrating as make you absolutely _disgusted_ with yourself for the research into muzzle speed, projectile size and weight, etc-- just _wanting_ to give some flavor to your games, only to find out "yep.  It's a gun.  'Reckon I'll just toss it in this barrel labeled 'GUNS' and see who wants what."

 

We found a remarkably simple way to deal with the scaling problem, but it died with the dissolution of the original group.  By then 4e was out, and the new guys just weren't having a lot of home-brew (yet ).

 

 

 

 

Don't feel bad.  I've got 5 BBB and one softcover 4e Champions (BBB: Reduced Penetration) on my shelf and I, too, had forgotten.

 

In our defense though, I expect it's been a _while_ since either of us has looked at the Campaigning section in that book.     (Well, except when I need to Xerox Cheshire Cat, of course.  I really like the look of 4e Cheshire Cat; I find it orders of magnitude better than the other offerings)

 

 

 

Sir, those of us who can't draw say it _all the time_...  

 

 

I'd have to agree.  It didn't affect me as much though, because I always used Champs/Hero for Cinematic Action/Larger Than Life.

 

For "normal" less powerful games, we used different systems. 

 

It is why I have a difficult time in the Fantasy Hero threads.  I don't see "real weapon" or "normal".  I envision more powerful characters like you see in a anime.  More Supers with a Sword.  If I want to play "realistic" I play a game designed for that.

 

And for art work.  I like Superheros that look comic'y.  Some of the 5th art is good, but the later art just doesn't say Superhero or Supervillian to me.  Especially when it went "vido game".  I am always using earlier art for my games. I even borrow M&M art.

[Duke Bushido]

10 minutes ago, Spence said:

 

And for art work.  I like Superheros that look comic'y.  Some of the 5th art is good, but the later art just doesn't say Superhero or Supervillian to me.  Especially when it went "vido game".  I am always using earlier art for my games. I even borrow M&M art.

 

 

Agreed on all counts!

[Scott Ruggels]

I can do Superheroes, but mostly either Jack Kirby, or 90's over inked.   Moving into Digital painting these days and superheroes look kind of "pasted in" for that sort of work. Going back to0 Pen & Ink would not be too hard.  Still mostly doing War historical, and Fantasy these days, though.

 

[Duke Bushido]

Amigo, you can't go wrong with Kirby.  

 

(personally, I think you can:  the weird over-emphasized metallics and the fact that he seemed to think hands and feet were almost completely flat,---  The helmets.  Oh dear sweet merciful God, the helmets..... But still: he did more or less define the look of the genre for a couple of generations)

 

[Scott Ruggels]

2 hours ago, Spence said:

 

 

It is why I have a difficult time in the Fantasy Hero threads.  I don't see "real weapon" or "normal".  I envision more powerful characters like you see in a anime.  More Supers with a Sword.  If I want to play "realistic" I play a game designed for that.

 

And for art work.  I like Superheros that look comic'y.  Some of the 5th art is good, but the later art just doesn't say Superhero or Supervillian to me.  Especially when it went "vido game".  I am always using earlier art for my games. I even borrow M&M art.

 

I am somewhat the opposisite in that I played and GM's very low powered games that were either  "modern Military" (1980's Mercenary action), or my fairly low powered Fantasy Hero game.  Looking over the numbers from Kevin Dockery's  books and his Formulas, they work for standard hero, but if you wanted to be absolutely accurate for Guns, just add a die for all Firearm RKA's and take the stun mod back by one, or to one if it's low caliber.

That being said having most swords being STR Min 11, and doing around 2 D6 HKA, and the same with firearms, means that to differentiate the weapons, use accessories to add modifiers  (things like scopes, or  AVLD Magic swords, or some such)  Niow I eenjoy watching Anime, but I don't particularly like playing with it, as I don't like a large amount of plot stylization in my games.
 

I am a supreme gun Nut with a closet full of WW1 and WW2 long arms, but the thing about them is, is that it's not the firearm, but the person using it.  A character with a lot of familiarities and PSLs is going to do better than sokmeone with just base stats and a single class familiarity.  ( I like things a bit more "realistic" and Hero works for that if you manage things properly. It's part of the reason I am going back to Espionage and Danger International, for the Solar System campaign, as character creation and basic rules are only a few pages, and don't really touch much on powers.) 

[Scott Ruggels]

17 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Amigo, you can't go wrong with Kirby.  

 

(personally, I think you can:  the weird over-emphasized metallics and the fact that he seemed to think hands and feet were almost completely flat,---  The helmets.  Oh dear sweet merciful God, the helmets..... But still: he did more or less define the look of the genre for a couple of generations)

 

I have somewhere, a joke comic I did with some other folks back in the 90's, and art jam/ Art war, where another artists dropped a Nuke on me in his Cartoon, and I came out of it with a Jack Kirby oprigin, surrounded by a field of those little dots. I had too much fun with that. Another heavy influence of mine in the 90's was Alex Toth, who did all those hanna barbera Super Hero cartoons in the 60's 70's and 80's.

[Beast]

On 7/14/2019 at 11:26 AM, dmjalund said:

what we need is a Champions Starter Box

not a starter box but a free pdf of an updated Wildstrike and Hero system in 2 pages
with a bit of exp spending
then Champions Complete in a starter box or as a starter pdf package