Perceptions of the game change

[Spence]

3 minutes ago, Beast said:

then Champions Complete in a starter box or as a starter pdf package

 

 

Put a copy of CC in the box.

A pregenerated superhero team in the box.

A "lets learn to play Champions" short adventure that does a quick demo of skill resolution, movement and combat.

A short three or for chapter mini-campaign.

Maps for the above

and a few hero dice.

 

And there it is. 

The Champions Starter box. 

[Beast]

1 minute ago, Spence said:

 

Put a copy of CC in the box.

A pregenerated superhero team in the box.

A "lets learn to play Champions" short adventure that does a quick demo of skill resolution, movement and combat.

A short three or for chapter mini-campaign.

Maps for the above

and a few hero dice.

 

And there it is. 

The Champions Starter box. 

there needs to be a starter setup that is about 20 pages including 10 starting heroes and maybe 1 Boss encounter

[Duke Bushido]

Wildstrike? 

[BigJackBrass]

2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Wildstrike? 

 

It was a Champions New Millennium boardgame of superhero combat, packaged as a little ziploc game. Not bad for what it was trying to do. 

 

[Beast]

9 minutes ago, BigJackBrass said:

 

It was a Champions New Millennium boardgame of superhero combat, packaged as a little ziploc game. Not bad for what it was trying to do. 

 

It was a fairly cheap entry intro for Champions combat(PIT FIGHTING)

 

[Duke Bushido]

Sweet! 

 

I've got to get that entered into my index.  Thanks! 

 

 

[ScottishFox]

On 7/14/2019 at 12:00 AM, Spence said:

PLAYABLE Adventures and Campaigns. 

 

This is it - right here.

 

And the solution is not a collection of amateur adventures written by fans.  It is professional grade adventures written by real authors and illustrated by real artists.

 

Look at the amazing work done in the Pathfinder and D&D 5th edition hardcover adventures.

 

Time is precious and very few DMs have the luxury of enough time to crank out whole worlds and adventures from nothing but their imaginations.  Even if they did they would rarely match the quality of professional writers.

 

I couldn't have agreed more with you, Spence.  We need adventures more than anything else - by a lot.

[steriaca]

2 hours ago, ScottishFox said:

 

This is it - right here.

 

And the solution is not a collection of amateur adventures written by fans.  It is professional-grade adventures written by real authors and illustrated by real artists.

 

Look at the amazing work done in the Pathfinder and D&D 5th edition hardcover adventures.

 

Time is precious and very few DMs have the luxury of enough time to crank out whole worlds and adventures from nothing but their imaginations.  Even if they did they would rarely match the quality of professional writers.

 

I couldn't have agreed more with you, Spence.  We need adventures more than anything else - by a lot.

The biggest problem is, professional writers, want money to write an adventure. We could sell millions of adventures if we can get Stephen King to write one adventure, but even if he is interested, he needs to be paid for his work.

 

Mind you, it would be the strangest, most horrific superhero adventure ever written, and perhaps the quickest, but (Gauntlet voice) Stephen needs money badly.

 

Well, maybe not. But he would insist on being paid.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Meh, theres nothing about the rules that bleeds fun out of anything, it plays the same as first edition.  The presentation makes it daunting and feel excessive, though. And the need to explain EVERYTHING to the finest detail makes it feel like the GM doesn't have a lot of room for making a call or deciding on the fly.  That's not true, of course, the book does make sure to say its up to you and decide what feels best and this is just reference if you want to be sure.  But the books feel like they're micromanaging your game.

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Meh, theres nothing about the rules that bleeds fun out of anything, it plays the same as first edition. 

 

 

It's not the play.  It's the learning the rules.

 

'Frinstance, in -- I _think_ it was '81?-- Jim peeled the cellophane of a new boxed game he bought when we showed up for Traveller night.  He read through the rules-- mostly out loud.   Three hours later, we were playing our first game.

 

And we were _young_ then (well, "ish").  We didn't have lots of important commitments on our time; even our jobs were those entry-level, no-responsibility, take no work home with you sort of affairs.  We had stamina, and could game all night and hit the time clock the next morning like it was nothing.

 

I've had the 6e PDFs for what?  Nearly two years now?

 

Still haven't finished them.

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

4 hours ago, ScottishFox said:

 

This is it - right here.

 

And the solution is not a collection of amateur adventures written by fans.  It is professional grade adventures written by real authors and illustrated by real artists.

 

Look at the amazing work done in the Pathfinder and D&D 5th edition hardcover adventures.

 

 

<---Paid pro right here, and yes I can do that Digital Painting style. and yes, I can volunteer a couple of pieces, BUT I would rather be paid, please.

[steriaca]

26 minutes ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 

<---Paid pro right here, and yes I can do that Digital Painting style. and yes, I can volunteer a couple of pieces, BUT I would rather be paid, please.

I agree with this sentiment. Doing Digital Hero for free is one thing (And I didn't get paid for my Superhero Martial Arts article. I did let that go, by the way., but if I'm going to get the courage to actually write something, I want some form of payment. Give me a copy of the book. A physical copy. (Even if it is digital-only. Print out a copy for me and mail it to me.)

[Christopher R Taylor]

Some of us are doing pro level work, but its slow and we need more (especially for superheroes).  A campaign setting with a campaign arc and adventures to fill that in would be a good start.  Two or three of those and you set yourself apart as a game.

 

And yes, I've heard all the excuses "adventures don't sell!"  But the problem is that without adventures GAMES don't sell.  They're what you put out to promote the game and enable people to jump right in.  Without that, people have to start from scratch.  Some of us love that, but most don't like getting a box of random Lego pieces and being put in a blank room.

[ScottishFox]

10 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

adventures don't sell!

 

There are more than 20 Pathfinder adventure paths (6 books each!) and D&D 5th Edition has cranked out a hardcover or two each season.

 

Quality adventures sell just fine.

[BigJackBrass]

Savage Worlds got a good boost early on with its free "one sheet" adventure format. Lots of short scenarios, playable with very little additional work, and they looked professional. I expect they were very useful for driving traffic to PEG's website too. 

[steriaca]

We have hit the Catch-22 of Hero Games. We need them to publish adventures so we can buy them. They need cash to save there company. But they don't have the cash to pay authors to write adventures. And they had bad experiences in the past with adventures not selling.

 

We want adventures.

We are willing to pay for adventures. 

They can't pay authors for adventures.

They have no faith in adventures.

Hero Games has no products on physical shelves and no new players are willing to invest in a product which the company can not support with products.

 

We see the problem.

We know the problem.

Does Hero Games management see the problem?

If they do, is it too late to fix the problem?

Do they care enough to fix the problem?

[Trechriron10]

I have three words for HERO games.

 

Content. Creator. Program.  (DTRPG --> Lots of Eyeballs --> Share the profits --> If the creator does well HERO makes some cash...)

 

Also, Kindle versions would be amazing. I read my Fire on the Porcelain Throne and it would be awesome to read HERO there...

[Spence]

4 hours ago, steriaca said:

We have hit the Catch-22 of Hero Games. We need them to publish adventures so we can buy them. They need cash to save there company. But they don't have the cash to pay authors to write adventures. And they had bad experiences in the past with adventures not selling.

 

We want adventures.

We are willing to pay for adventures. 

They can't pay authors for adventures.

They have no faith in adventures.

Hero Games has no products on physical shelves and no new players are willing to invest in a product which the company can not support with products.

 

We see the problem.

We know the problem.

Does Hero Games management see the problem?

If they do, is it too late to fix the problem?

Do they care enough to fix the problem?

 

A professional grade full color modern campaign or adventure book.  A project with art.  It costs money.  

Even if Hero does not have the capitol to invest in it themselves, this is 2019.  There is a well established method to publish this type of product.

It is called Kickstarter.

 

There are several people on this board that fall into the "professional game writer" category as well as "professional artists".

 

The biggest issue is not the ability to locate talent or even finance the project. 

The big issue is what the adventure/campaign is.  It needs to be something that new to supers RPG players can learn in, definitely NOT a end of the world crisis. 

 

Just a solid super-criminal type adventure.  

 

I would make it a mini-campaign about a series of super-heists for money, jewels and a MacGuffin.  Designed to run at least 5 to 6 sessions and be easily plugged into any large city.  Especially Hudson City or Vibora Bay but also real world cities like New York or Chicago.   Provide guidelines for suitable character generation and include pregen heroes for those that simply want to play.

 

Full color hardback with maps.

 

4 minutes ago, Trechriron10 said:

I have three words for HERO games.

 

Content. Creator. Program.  (DTRPG --> Lots of Eyeballs --> Share the profits --> If the creator does well HERO makes some cash...)

 

Also, Kindle versions would be amazing. I read my Fire on the Porcelain Throne and it would be awesome to read HERO there...

 

Miskatonic Repository

DM's Guild

Etc.....

[steriaca]

Yes. We are whipping the dead horse. Again and again and again.

[ScottishFox]

7 minutes ago, steriaca said:

Yes. We are whipping the dead horse. Again and again and again.

 

I'm curious why the dead horse isn't participating in the conversation.

 

Like these seem like good ideas.  Maybe a response along the lines of why they've chosen not to go this route would be helpful to the remaining fan base.

[steriaca]

We got the excuse "adventures do not sell", and that is it.

[Duke Bushido]

Historically, they didn't. 

 

They've got the records to back that claim up.  For reasons I do t understand personally, pre-made villain books _do_ sell (seriously: that seemed really backwards to me for the longest time). 

 

The problem is that _time has passed_.  The fans are no longer young people with lots of time on their hands and the energy to do it all from scratch once a week or even once a month in some cases. 

 

I say with complete honesty that I - and most of the GMs I knew back then- were of the "I don't want your canned settings and canned adventures" stripe:  I made everything myself, and loved it 

 

I'm fifty nine years old with two school-aged kids still at home, a job that eats a minimum of seventy hours a week... 

 

Time has passed, and the times have changed in the passing. 

 

 

The pre-packaged adventure task is even more daunting for -  well, I was going to say "universal system," but even if we stick with just "superheroes," it's pretty difficult.  

 

You say "let's play D&D," and everyone knows more or less what to expect.  Let's play Traveller or Kult or that Gothic space marines thing- everyone knows what to expect. 

 

"let's play superheroes," especially at this point in time, means a hundred different settings and tropes to a hundred different groups. 

 

Honestly, a writer will either _have_ to craft a whole new world from scratch or learn one of the published ones by heart, both of which have major downsides. 

 

So at this point looking for "pro stuff" is pointless from one perspective (though, as others above, I would like to point out that there are many 'paid pros' on this board) because short of volunteer everything, you are asking someone(s) to spend time learning or building a backdrop, then creating or learning NPCs and villains and writing an adventure that _might_ ring all the right genre bells for one small portion of the world's smallest RPG Fandom (I don't actually know that, but I haven't met an "outsider" to our group who already knew how to play in a couple of decades), all with "paid pro" art, color, writing, etc. 

 

And if those are the only acceptable standards, we can give up on ever seeing anything. 

[steriaca]

So, Enemies books sell (at least, in the past). Why not more of them under the Hero Games banner? I'm not asking for Champions Villain Volume 4 (well, actually I am, but that is another project). But say Champions Enemies Collection Volume 1 can work. At least it is something, done by Hero themselves, stating "we're not dead yet". Cue the song "Not Dead Yet" from Spamalot.

 

That is all we ask. Some little something which says there not dead yet. Give us something new and official.

[Spence]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

You say "let's play D&D," and everyone knows more or less what to expect.  Let's play Traveller or Kult or that Gothic space marines thing- everyone knows what to expect. 

 

"let's play superheroes," especially at this point in time, means a hundred different settings and tropes to a hundred different groups.

 

You are actually mixing two completely different things here.

 

If you say "let's play fantasy" you get a hundred different settings and tropes to a hundred different groups. 

If you say "let's play science fiction" you get a hundred different settings and tropes to a hundred different groups. 

 

If you say D&D, Traveller, Kult or some such you are defining as specific setting which gives people specific expectations.

 

The problem is that while Hero has a setting called Champions, they stopped.  No that is not right.  They only partially supported it. 

 

While it is an absolute truth that there was a time that pre-packaged adventures and campaigns didn't sell, I believe it was because people simply didn't have the distractions of too many choices like we do now.   Like I could spend hours on building a campaign, but today I am lucky manage a little time to read forums.  It is why I so dislike the move to POD casts.  I just don't have any time to participate and I can't really listen to them as a back ground to work.

 

But back to the subject at hand.  The reason the D&D world is familiar to people frankly, is they have been putting adventures and campaigns out that people play.

 

The Champions Universe exists and can actually be fun.  We had many support supplements that could be used to build adventures, but nothing to actually play.   Which has meant that as time passed, the entire line has faded.  Today most gamers have never even heard about Hero or Champions.  If they have they also believe the company went out of business years ago. 

 

Asking people to "play superheroes" is the wrong question. 

Asking people to write a "superhero adventure" is the wrong question.

 

The correct question is to ask them to write a Champions adventure using Champions Universe Villainy in a Champions Universe location.

And the talent is out there.  A method of financing it is out there.  But you cannot go overboard with a beginning/introduction campaign.  No Mega-Villains.  A simple straight forward crime style adventure.  Something that can stand alone or be "tweaked" into any existing campaign. 

 

 

 

[assault]

3 hours ago, Spence said:

The big issue is what the adventure/campaign is.  It needs to be something that new to supers RPG players can learn in, definitely NOT a end of the world crisis. 

 

Just a solid super-criminal type adventure. 

 

Out of curiosity, why shouldn't it be an end of the world crisis? If anything, they are easier to play and run.

 

Are you worried about the PCs failing?