Cover (maneuver): How to Use

[Manic Typist]

So NPCs have been using Cover a lot lately against the PCs. The rules clearly say you can't abort to a Dodge or a Block once you've been Covered, as the attack has already taken place. Obviously this should extend to Dive for Cover.

 

However, what if the PC has some kind of Defensive Power they could activate, such as Desolid or a forcefield?

 

I'm torn on it. I think a strict RAW approach would mean no, you can't do that before the damage is applied against you. You were hit without those defenses active. I also don't want to make Cover less desirable than it already tends to be, and this could set a precedent that would be reduce the tactical options employed by opponents and frustrate players when used against them.

 

On the other hand... it feels dramatic to let powers like that do this sort of thing.

 

I'm leaning toward... you have a negative to your DEX roll equal to how much the enemy beat their To Hit roll by, minimum -2. Enemy hit your DCV exactly? DEX roll-off to determine if the bullet hits you before your power's effect occurs, at a -2. Enemy beat your DCV by 4? -4 to your DEX roll.

 

How have you all approached it?

 

[Duke Bushido]

If it's an "instant activation" power, I usually do a Dex-off between the person covering and the person wanting to activate the power: if the, say Force Field-- gets up before the other guy fires, he _still_ hits; if it penetrates the FF, oh well....  That's why he was covering you in the first place.

 

I have also allowed Dive for Cover when an player is covered, taking the covering character's "level of success" as a negative modifier for the diving character.  They get winged a lot, but not always.

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

Almost forgot:  

 

Dex-off:

 

Compare "level of success" for each character.  If the Diving character has the higher level of success, then subtract the covering character's success level, and the covering character takes that number as a negative modifier against his previous "to-hit" roll.  (it is in this way that the diving character may still get hit).  All characters hit while diving are assumed to have fallen prone.

 

Here's where it gets a bit wiggy, but my players feel it to be fair:

 

If the covering character has the higher level of success, subtract the diving character's success level from the covering character's success level.  In addition to hitting the diving character, he may apply this difference as a positive modifier to hit the character on the covering character's next Phase.  The idea is that he _is_ covering the character, and though he didn't react _quite_ fast enough to "pull the trigger," as it were, he managed to keep the character "covered" and tracked him as he moved.

 

This bonus must be used immediately, or it is lost.

 

As I said, it's a bit wiggy, but my players all seem cool with it, as it gives them a _chance_, and a pretty good one versus "normals," but not a really great one versus someone on their own level.

 

 

[massey]

I don't think anyone in our group has ever used the cover maneuver even once.  I do like it though, at least thematically.  My own house-rule, if anyone ever bothered to use it, would be that covering someone would negate their Combat Luck.  When the bad guy holds James Bond at gunpoint, Bond doesn't just run around shooting like he did before.  Suddenly he's in actual danger.

[Manic Typist]

Interesting, Duke. I do the DEX roll of currently but I hadn't considered checking the Activation time as a default litmus.

 

And interesting... giving the Coverer a chance to "re-Cover" (groan) should they lose the DEX off but had a better chance of winning in the first place. At least, I think that's what you said?

 

Could you do an example, from "Freeze!" to completion?

[Greywind]

I had a player whose character was covered by a lot of police. Attempted to teleport out. Got shot with a lot of stun guns.

[Duke Bushido]

6 hours ago, Manic Typist said:

Interesting, Duke. I do the DEX roll of currently but I hadn't considered checking the Activation time as a default litmus.

 

Right: just remember that there are also "giveaway" limitations such as gestures, incantations, etc, that, depending on how they are defined, are going to provide negative mods (there are no rules for this, so you will have to wing it) or make it flat out impossible to pull off without the guarantee of getting zapped. 

 

To that end, I also allow a player (I don't usually do this for the bad guys, as I feel they would be less self-sacrificing) to make a maneuver even knowing he will get hit.  I don't know if your edition is using these rules, but I essentially use the "roll with the punch" as presented in Champions II (combined with an ego roll, since you _know_ you are going to get hit).  If he is successful, then he may continue to act even while getting attacked, though he will take CV penalties (unless his ego roll is a 3).

 

Also remember that the moves are considered simultaneous, with preference to the guy doing the covering.  Thus, if the attack being used for the cover does knock-back or knock-down, etc, that will be resolved and applied _before_ the defender does his thing. 

 

6 hours ago, Manic Typist said:

 

And interesting... giving the Coverer a chance to "re-Cover" (groan) should they lose the DEX off but had a better chance of winning in the first place. At least, I think that's what you said? 

 

Essentially, yes. 

6 hours ago, Manic Typist said:

 

Could you do an example, from "Freeze!" to completion?

 

If I find time when I get home tonight--and I remember--  I will be happy to do so. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

 

So NPCs have been using Cover a lot lately against the PCs. The rules clearly say you can't abort to a Dodge or a Block once you've been Covered, as the attack has already taken place. Obviously this should extend to Dive for Cover.

 

However, what if the PC has some kind of Defensive Power they could activate, such as Desolid or a forcefield?

 

 

Definitely you can turn on a power that doesn't take extra time to activate (or other obvious clues like gestures, etc).  

Personally I think there should at least be the option of being able to break cover, that it ought not be absolute.  A severe penalty to fast draw/DEX roll, but not total negation of the ability to react.

[Duke Bushido]

19 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Personally I think there should at least be the option of being able to break cover, that it ought not be absolute.

 

As you can tell, I heartily agree. 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well in real life and in the source material (movies, books, TV, etc) covering someone isn't 100% perfect in stopping them from acting.  It is known that some could actually draw and fire before the person covering them could act, but they had to be AMAZING.  In the rules Cover is perfect, its absolute, no one can do ANYTHING without being hit; the only way to break it is for the person covering to be distracted.  That's not what we see in the genres represented.

[Hugh Neilson]

So, if the target who is covered can break cover, why should the opponent ever use this maneuver, rather than just hitting the opponent now?  What do you perceive as the "value proposition", mechanically, for the attacker in using the Cover maneuver instead of just striking immediately (while the target is solid and his force field is down)? 

 

I'd guess that guy with his defenses down was also surprised out of combat, so the attacker has, by revealing his presence yelling "FREEZE!", already given up the double stun that comes from surprising his target out of combat.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

1 minute ago, Hugh Neilson said:

So, if the target who is covered can break cover, why should the opponent ever use this maneuver, rather than just hitting the opponent now?  What do you perceive as the "value proposition", mechanically, for the attacker in using the Cover maneuver instead of just striking immediately (while the target is solid and his force field is down)? 

Especially considering that the attacker takes a -2 OCV penalty for daring to not shoot right now. 

 

I personally don't see the merit in the maneuver existing. 

If Captain Cover has taken Timmy Target by surprise and held him at gunpoint, I'd hold off on using the combat engine until combat had started and have it begin with Captain Cover's surprise attack or whatever prevented Captain Cover from keeping his surprise. 

If Captain Cover tries holding Timmy Target at gunpoint during combat, I already have delayed action rules to handle that. 

 

Moreover, I feel the mechanic is a feelbad mechanic.  Hearing "You can't do anything without getting shot before your defenses come up" sucks.  Hearing "Your hostage just escaped, you can't do anything about it since you lost the roll, that action you took is wasted now" also sucks. 

[ScottishFox]

The value proposition of Cover is to take a hostage or get someone to yield instead of having to kill them.

 

I agree the rules around it could use some tweaking, but it's a dramatic tool.

 

The classic, "Drop your weapon or I splatter Susan's brains all over the vault door!  You, bank manager, start opening that thing now!"

 

In super heroic situations this allows a grossly inferior opponent (for them) to be a real threat.  Sure, Robert the Robber, is no match for InvincoLad, but the potential death of an innocent might be.

[Chris Goodwin]

35 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Personally I think there should at least be the option of being able to break cover, that it ought not be absolute.  A severe penalty to fast draw/DEX roll, but not total negation of the ability to react.

 

There is, baked into the maneuver in fact.  A distraction (defined loosely as a PRE attack that exceeds the covering character's PRE; note the covered character is at -3d6 to PRE attacks due to being covered; probably not limited to PRE attacks though) means the characters roll DEX vs. DEX.  If the covered character wins, the cover is broken.  It sounds like a DEX vs. DEX roll to activate a defensive power would be a possibility.  There's also room for the GM to decide, including some suggested additional options to make it easier to break.  

 

The way I would run it is:  neither the attacker nor the target know if the attack hits; in fact, I would likely not preroll the attack roll (which Cover calls for) just for that reason.   I'd almost treat it like a duel where one character already has their gun drawn, and the other might be at a disadvantage of some kind (their back to the attacker, or hands behind their head, or on the ground) and otherwise treat it however duels are handled.  Western Hero, maybe?  

 

I'd probably also not use Cover in a superhero-level game; I probably would use it for lower powered games where Powers are less common.  

[Greywind]

But on the other hand, Cover is an attack that already hit. Just the damage hadn't been rolled yet...

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

14 minutes ago, ScottishFox said:

In super heroic situations this allows a grossly inferior opponent (for them) to be a real threat.  Sure, Robert the Robber, is no match for InvincoLad, but the potential death of an innocent might be.

Robert declares a Cover action.  What stops Teen Typhoon from Missile Deflecting the bullet, InvincoLad from Dive for Covering into the line of fire, or Barrier Boy from making a Force Wall between Robert and Susan?  Do they somehow lose the ability to Abort because a Cover was declared? 

Alternatively, if Robert is already holding his gun to Susan's head when the heroes show up, why bother with a maneuver?  Just say "Well InvincoLad, you could punch him but he'd pull the trigger first unless you can get him distracted or the gun away from Susan's head.  Got any heroic plans?". 

 

It's a great dramatic tool, but it doesn't need initiative time mechanics. 

[Chris Goodwin]

38 minutes ago, Greywind said:

But on the other hand, Cover is an attack that already hit. Just the damage hadn't been rolled yet...

 

Sure, but as we're seeing in this thread, that kind of breaks down when the potential exceptions and possible ways to break the Cover are factored in.  Maybe having someone covered (small-c) just means they're at 0 DCV and you're pointing your attack at them with a delayed Phase.  What do you normally do in this situation when both characters try to do something?  

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

But on the other hand, Cover is an attack that already hit. Just the damage hadn't been rolled yet...

 

As defined in the rules, but... where in the source material or genre support is this ever shown?  I'm not even talking about real life here.  Where is there EVER a situation where someone covers a guy and its impossible for them to miss or fail to shoot before the other guy takes action unless a hot girl walks by?

 

And yeah, Western Hero has rules for showdowns, giving rules on dex roll/fast draw modifiers based on circumstance, equipment, etc.

[ScottishFox]

12 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

As defined in the rules, but... where in the source material or genre support is this ever shown?  I'm not even talking about real life here.  Where is there EVER a situation where someone covers a guy and its impossible for them to miss or fail to shoot before the other guy takes action unless a hot girl walks by?

 

And yeah, Western Hero has rules for showdowns, giving rules on dex roll/fast draw modifiers based on circumstance, equipment, etc.

 

You're making an excellent point, but I recall a situation where a hostage taker duct-taped the barrel of his shotgun to the victim's neck before the police arrived to make sure he couldn't miss.  

[Chris Goodwin]

35 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Robert declares a Cover action.  What stops Teen Typhoon from Missile Deflecting the bullet, InvincoLad from Dive for Covering into the line of fire, or Barrier Boy from making a Force Wall between Robert and Susan?  Do they somehow lose the ability to Abort because a Cover was declared? 

Alternatively, if Robert is already holding his gun to Susan's head when the heroes show up, why bother with a maneuver?  Just say "Well InvincoLad, you could punch him but he'd pull the trigger first unless you can get him distracted or the gun away from Susan's head.  Got any heroic plans?". 

 

It's a great dramatic tool, but it doesn't need initiative time mechanics. 

 

This right here.  Common sense, dramatic sense, special effects.  

 

In most source material, combat generally stops when someone has someone else covered.  If one person yells "Freeze!" and the other person doesn't freeze... we pretty much leave that up to the existing rules to adjudicate.  (Presence Attack to see if he actually freezes.  If he does, he's at 0 DCV.  If not, combat continues.)  

 

Without reference to Cover, what other mechanics do we have to handle this kind of situation?  

• Delayed Phases
• Presence Attacks
• DEX vs. DEX
• Fast Draw
• ...?

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

You're making an excellent point, but I recall a situation where a hostage taker duct-taped the barrel of his shotgun to the victim's neck before the police arrived to make sure he couldn't miss. 

 

That goes quite a bit beyond a cover maneuver.  But, even if it remotely was the same, let's say the hostage had teleport or force field.  You figure he could cook that off before the hostage taker could fire?  I mean, if it didn't have extra time or require gestures and incantations?  Lets be serious here.

[Chris Goodwin]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

As defined in the rules, but... where in the source material or genre support is this ever shown?  I'm not even talking about real life here.  Where is there EVER a situation where someone covers a guy and its impossible for them to miss or fail to shoot before the other guy takes action unless a hot girl walks by?

 

Not only that, but where it's impossible for him to miss or fail to shoot, and he knows it?  But, what if his gun were to jam, or he had less ammo than he thought, or something else went wrong for him?

 

We're starting to get beyond the deterministic nature of Hero combat.  I've got some ideas, but they'll need putting down on paper (or a Google Doc), and I'm a bit swamped at the moment.

[Chris Goodwin]

30 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

That goes quite a bit beyond a cover maneuver.  But, even if it remotely was the same, let's say the hostage had teleport or force field.  You figure he could cook that off before the hostage taker could fire?  I mean, if it didn't have extra time or require gestures and incantations?  Lets be serious here.

 

Which might be why this was originally a Danger International thing and not a Champions thing.  None of that ever had to come up when it was just guns...

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think the simplest answer is to state that Cover can be defeated, but it takes a really supreme DEX roll to out maneuver the person covering you (like -5 to the roll), and that you can activate any power that does not require extra time, an attack roll, or conspicuous use like gestures, incantation, concentration, focus, etc without being hit.  That still makes it behave more or less like written and in the source material, but people with really weird powers like teleport can get around it.  I mean, no matter how well you have someone covered, if they just disappear... they're gone.

[Duke Bushido]

Okay--

 

I'll take a simple stab-- sorry, but I just walked in for real about twenty minutes ago and cycled the kids through the eat-and-shower routine, I'm due to pick up the Leviathan and the wife left her lunch in the kitchen (she works nights), but I said I'd try (though technically, I'm really rushing things)

 

First:

 

Why would someone "use cover if it's such a waste?!"  [paraphrasing my own]

 

I don't know.  Morality, perhaps?  A desire to _not_ have to shoot someone?

 

Lack of choice?  "I'm supposed to bring in Bad Granny for questioning, but all I've got is my 4d6 RKA blast pistol...."

 

And of course, the fact that it works on mooks without having to _actually_ splatter them.

 

 

Anyway, this was supposed to be just a quick example, and I'm wasting time.

 

 

First off: this works best for a super escaping a normal. And let's be honest, it makes sense that a super _should_ have a chance to escape a normal.  Also would like to note that I use the Cover rules from 4e, simply because at the time we adopted them more players owned 4e than anything else (it was the "new" book back then   ).  I will state up front that I don't know ( or -- and this is not rude; it's just to head off a rush of corrections that may be coming-- really care if it's different in later editions.  This works for us, and I'm not changing now).

 

If you have HSRB 4e, you can find Cover on page 155.  Probably there in BBB, too. I know it's in there somewhere, just don't remember where.

 

As folks have pointed out, I looked to Western HERO-- it is my single most well-worn sourcebook.  I use it the way the rest of you use Ninja HERO or the MA book for whatever generation you're playing at the moment.  Anyway, the idea was inspired by the showdown ideas.  Moreover, page 40, bottom right:

 

When a character tries to break away from being covered after successfully distracting or surprising his opponent, add the appropriate modifiers from the list below to both the attackers and the target's DEX rolls.

 

 

Hilariously, there is no list below.  Not here, and not in that book.  Talk about a need for an errata.

 

If you go to p155 of the HSRB 4e, you'll see this helpful phrase:

 

 This roll is made with all normal modifiers; in addition, it takes a -2 Penalty to make an attack roll with the modifiers for that location.  

 

Now it doesn't specify if it's referring to the Hit Location Chart, of if there are special penalties for where the two of you are standing.  Presumably the HLC, but who knows?

 

At any rate, it mentions distractions, and the Western HERO book starts to give us some stuff to play with and utterly fails....   I can't help but think that at some point, there was meant to be an option or two-- at least one-- outside of PRE Attack.  Right or wrong; doesn't matter: you do you, after all.  If your players _enjoy_ being auto-hit by everyone who manages to sneak up on them, then go for it.  I'm not here to tell you they don't, after all.  If your players enjoy auto-hitting everyone they get the drop on, then the more the merrier.  Personally, I'm looking at the source material:  the super-fast sleight of hand that let's the ninja stare at a gun in his face (which I am going to argue suggest's he's pretty much _covered_) and in the blink of an eye he's holding the gun and his attacker is nursing a sprained wrist.  (yeah; that's Disarm, but given that the source material is chock-full-o-nuts _packed_ with this sort of exchange, I'm inclined to think that cover should _not_ be auto-hit.  And don't get me started on "covering" Speedsters.....

 

Though as noted, I'm also inclined to think it should be a scary damned thing when you're both on roughly the same level.  Hence the DEX-off.

 

 

At any rate, -- well, never mind.  Phone is ringing (looks like the phone at the wife's job, so let me hurry this up)

 

Important thing to remember:  I don't generally just up and tell my players what SPD their opponents are, and between held actions, etc,  I don't make it easy to figure out (though I don't go out of my way to make it difficult, either)

 

Other important thing:

 

Remember what the SPD chart represents:  you don't do everything in a single second, then wait for your next single second out of twelve; you are assumed to be "doing the thing" at a rate that carries you from the start of your Phase until the start of you next one.

 

Both of those are important.

 

Why?

 

Because it doesn't matter _what_ you do the Phase your opponent Covered you-- he is in the active process of getting a bead and deciding whether or not he's going to pull the trigger.  If you do something (that isn't "instant" or that has a Tell of some sort, Bang!  you have made up his mind for him; he has decided _not_ to wait, and you get hurt (maybe.  You definitely get hit).  Best thing for you to do (I've heard my older players teach this to new players  ) is take a Recovery or two and hope he doesn't have a SPD under 3.  The way I figured it when we started cobbling these rules, during that Phase, he is _intent_ on getting a bead on you and waffling as to whether it's worth it to go non-violent.

 

The other important thing is how _well_ he has you covered.

 

 

So you're ready to try something?

 

Jimmy Crookneck has the drop on you!  He made his Cover roll by 4 (think of this as "how well he has you covered").  Remember this, because it's going to work against you if you try something.  

 

Jimmy Crookneck is a local thug, working for the mob you're investigating.  Obviously, you're getting close to something the mob doesn't want you to get close to.  You carefully, obviously stop moving and let him see that you've stopped moving.  Take a minute; think this out.  Look around, see what might be of some help to you.  (Probably not the manila folder you're still holding after rifling through it.

 

Jimmy is standing at your back.

 

 

Break:

 

Let's look at Jimmy's "covered" success:  this is a raw bonus he gets if you try something stupid.  If there's more than one of you, and he's trying to cover _all_ of you (or at least more than one), then this bonus is divided across the number of people he's trying to cover.  The bonus he gets for standing directly behind you, though-- that's just for you.  Let's say you've got a sidekick with you.  Jimmy's Covering bonus is divided by two as he wants to cover both of you.  Your sidekick is pretty much head-on to Jimmy, so no extra bonuses there: he can see Jimmy's every move, and you can't.  Oh, if only you had a telepath for a sidekick!  

 

You spend a few moments doing _nothing_; letting Jimmy get comfortable with the idea that he's got you dead to rights and you're smart enough to know it.  You take that recovery while you're standing there, and maybe one more.   You've decided you're going to make a break for it!  You don't know if Jimmy's in striking range, and you can't draw a bead on him with Electro Bolts until you can actually aim at him (unless you want to try a hip shot.  Turns out you don't.)

 

You are pretty sure you can drop and spring into a leap and get behind that heavy desk long enough to re-orient yourself and maybe get a shot off.  Dex off:

 

Jimmy's a norm-- and athletic normal, sure, but he's only got a DEX of 15.  You, on the other hand, have the twitchy reflexes of living lightning, and your DEX 22 shows it.  You give a wink to your sidekick, and he knowingly activates his IPE Desolidification.  He can only keep it up for one minute, but he's safe for a moment...  you drop, hoping to screw up the bead he has on you, roll your shoulders forward, then spring into a leap to get behind the desk---   Fortunately, it's a new phase for Jimmy, or you'd feel hot lead somewhere just north of your foramen magnum!

 

You make your DEX roll by 9; Jimmy makes his by 4.  Subtracting his from yours, you have a 5 pt bonus(the new editions call this a penalty skill level, but we didn't have that word when we came up with this.  At any rate, you can apply that toward the original "Covering" roll.  As Jimmy made his original roll by 4, and your bonus (his PSL) subtracts from that, wo-hoo!  You _almost_ got away with it.  He has now made his cover roll by exactly zero, but hey-- he made it.  Bang!  You've been shot!  

 

Better for Jimmy, not only have you been shot, but he's still got that bonus +2 (his covering bonus of 4, divided across the two characters) he can add to his roll to cover you again, if he should so desire.  Or, since he's tracking you so well, he can use it to flat out shoot you.  You're not very cooperative, after all.

 

Fortunately, Ghost Boy used this distraction to phase through the wall behind him, and is safe.

 

 

Now let's say you had made your Dex roll by 10!  Then subtract Jimmy's Dex success of 4, and you can assign a PSL of _5_ to the covering roll.  As it made it only by 4, you manage to pull it off!  You manage to to get out of harm's way (for a moment!).  However, Jimmy still has his Covering bonus of 2 (since he voluntarily split it) he can apply to re-Cover you, or just open fire.

 

Note:   Characters covering a group can _voluntarily_ relinquish some of the targets to "get back" some of the bonus, _provided_ they do so before they lose Covered status.

 

For example, in the above, Jimmy could have decided that Ghost Boy was not a real threat, and decided to focus his attention entirely on you, granting him the full +4 in the event you tried something and succeeded.  However, once he loses track of any of the covered people (say one teleports away or something), that option is no longer available: he has divided his attention too far, or something like that, and only has whatever his bonus was after the initial division.  Similarly, he can voluntarily split the bonus further to cover additional people who come into the area, should he want to.

 

 

I have _really_ got to get my wife her lunch, so I'm going to go.  I trust you can see how this is still a deadly option for "heroic" normal-v-normal type stuff, and nearly as dangerous for super-v-super.  That's pretty much what we wanted: a chance for super characters (not just super heroes, but the Ninjas and fast aliens and what-have-you in Heroic stuff) to actually _be_ action heroes, and for that "little bit better than normal" to be the deciding factor (dice willing, of course )

 

I'm sorry if this doesn't answer your questions, but if you want to know more, just ask.  I'll try to get them answered tomorrow.

 

There is no point in saying "feel free to point out all the flaws and problems and anti-HERO System things in these house rules (crap!  I need to track down Chris Goodwin's House Rules thread and put a cleaner version there at some point in the future), so long as you understand that I'm not changing the way I do this at my table.  It's worked since '92.  I have absolutely _no doubt_ it will work until I'm dead or too damned old to draw players.