Hero system 7 ideas

[dmjalund]

I would have Growth, Density Increase and Shrinking be examples of Form Modification where a set of Linked Atrributes and Abilities (including some negatives) and be increased together. Here Mass Increase And Size Increase/Decrease would be part of the packages (mass increase will have a level of Knockback Resistance inbuilt)

[Hugh Neilson]

Ok this got a little more messy…and I agree with the challenge of following thoughts through the quotes.

11 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

For one, to create an image perceivable to the target, neither is relevant to the mechanic I prefer.  The image / mental illusion _appears_; the target perceives it, period, no matter what your results are.  Going by (and I am sorry i do not have the "quote of the quote; I guess the question above was more related than I thought it would be), you stated (and forgive the lack of direct quotes) that unless the mental illusion overcame the taget's EGO, then no image is created (or perhaps perceived?  I don't recall).

 

I disagree with that.  I prefer the old mechanic that the image is _there_, and perceivable, and that it falls to the character's INT to help him realize that what he is seeing is not real.  That is all.

 

I see two very different powers..  To me:

 

Mental Illusions controls the target's mind, specifically its interpretation of sensory data,  to force the mind to perceive something that is  not there.  This is similar to Mind Control (forcing decisions the target did not make), Mind Scan (locking on to the target's mind) and Telepathy (reading into the target's thoughts).  Put another way, Mind Scan detects a target's thought patterns over great distances; Telepathy reads a target's thoughts and memories; Mind Control changes the target's decisions to my own decisions; and mental Illusions changes the target's perceptions to what I want him to perceive.  All require overriding the target's own will, so all require exceeding Ego by some amount.

 

A Mental Illusion of the target's mother does not require the attacker know who she is, or what she looks like.  At an extreme, a target who was abandoned at birth would see his own subconscious image of "mother" and know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that that **is** the target's mother.  However, this would be a higher effect roll than if the target's mother is alive and well, and he just had dinner with her yesterday.  The Mental Illusion engages the target's own mind and knowledge to fill in the gaps of the illusion.

 

What if it fails?  One could interpret this as a fleeting glimpse of something related to the illusion the imagecaster was trying to create (just as a successful roll, followed by a successful EGO roll to shake it off, might allow longer interaction with the Illusion).  Or it might simply fail.  It does not fail due to any issue with the quality of the illusion - the target's  mind fills in those details.

 

Images creates an Image, just as it says.  The target may be fooled, or may be perceptive enough to notice flaws in the illusion.  Just as the real Dragon might have a weak spot in its hide, only perceivable with a very good PER roll, the false image likely has some errors, but how obvious they are depends on the skill of the Image's creator (the PER roll penalty).  Anyone can perceive these flaws, however I would also suggest there may be other clues.  The Dragon makes no sound, or no heat emenates from its fiery breath.  Or, more specific and story-oriented, the high tech hologram is very realistic (-20 to PER rolls; covers sight, hearing, temperature, smell, etc.) - but Stronghammer the Dwarf knows that is not how any Dragon he has ever seen looks or moves.

 

An Image of the target's mother requires the attacker know who she is, and what she looks like.  The target will not fill in the blanks.

 

What if it fails?  It is still there.  Everyone else can still see (hear, smell, feel, whatever) it.  TechnoMan has never seen a dragon, so he either takes Stronghammer's word, or he does not.  Anyone making their PER roll has spotted a slight error in the image, whether a failure to accurately capture the thing it is supposed to represent (Mom is a 50 yo Blonde MILF, not a wizened old crone; the actual person speaks with a different accent), or a flaw in the image itself (a miscoloured pixel; a wavering like a Fringe on invisibility; a wavering or static to the sound).

 

Practically, Images with no PER penalty creates a nice picture, but 5/8 of viewers will immediately know it is just an image with an 11- PER roll.

 

So, two  very different powers.  If Superman sees a Mental Illusion of Lois Lane where Circe the Witch should be, Batman must deduce what he sees from Supe's actions - all he knows is that Supes is not behaving like he should towards a known enemy villain.  But if an Image is used (even one covering all those Super-Senses), Batman may already have picked up on the fact that Lois wears a different perfume and can point that fact out to Superman.  The Mental Illusion is wearing the perfume Supes expects.

 

One other comparable - an Image of a wall is there - it obstructs line of sight even if I know it is not real (see 6er V1 p 237).  A Mental Illusion of a wall does not  block LoS if it fails to overcome the target's EGO.

 

EGO, PER ROLL, INT:

 

The Mental Illusion forces the character to perceive with all his senses.  Only his force of will is important.  The target's PER and INT are irrelevant - they are working to convince him that the illusion is real, thanks to the attacker overcoming his willpower, and co-opting his interpretations of sensory input.

 

Images work against a PER roll - does the target perceive something that tells him that image is not right?  INT is relevant to the extent it enhances the target's PER roll, and no more.  Here, willpower has no bearing - you can't "will" yourself to see through a hologram, or detect a flaw in a sound recording.  But you can perceive a flaw in the image itself.

 

11 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Intelligence.  The point of the old mechanic was that someone could potentially create an illusion so completely convincing as to at least momentarily overwhelm rational thought.  And this is found in the source material as well.  I wish I knew more about comics, as I'm pretty sure that I could come up with more than one example, but I remember Jim used to have comics lying about, and there was some X-men title that featured people wearing the old black-and-yellow costumes.  There was a long-haired red woman (alien?  Mutant?  X-men; probably a mutant) who could create illusions that were based on her opponent's nightmares or something like that.  I recall at one point she created a pair of giant snakes and her opponent turned tail and ran.  There is absolutely no doubt that his overwhelmed his Intelligence, simply because any moment of thought would have led to questions like "why are there giant snakes here at the docks?  Why are they floating in mid air?  Why are they just outlines of snakes with fog and mist passing through them? " and who knows how many other questions, any one of which (why don't they smell like guano?) would have cleared the whole situation right up.

 

For me-- again, for me-- the new PER roll mechanic turns Images into hypnotism:  you have to _want_ to believe it, or it won't work.  Seems like a lot of points to spend on a power that more than likely isn't going to do anything against a super (though I suppose it might work better in Heroic-level stuff)

 

First off, an illusion based on a target's worst fear would be a Mental Illusion, in my view.  The attacker does not know the worst fear of everyone in the universe, although SFX may indicate she sees the illusion, and now knows that fear.  So the scene you describe is the attack succeeding, and the first EGO roll failing, in my view.

 

Similarly, the PER roll creates the question of whether the target is fooled - even momentarily - into believing the projected image is real.  Just as a player group that always has enhanced senses and/or flash defense will not be affected by Flash attacks, a group where everyone buys up PER rolls will not be affected by images.  If you let them all buy 40 defenses, 12d6 attacks become pretty ineffectual as well.

 

In a Supers game, I'd expect to spend more on those PER roll penalties to have a viable Images power.  Everyone has a 16- PER roll?  How helpful is that when the Images impose a -10 penalty?

 

11 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

If we continue to grant that EGO is, at least in part, force of will, then yes; it does.  Was the hero too clever to be deceived, or was his resolve so unflinching that he didn't see the illusion at all?

 

Was the illusionist able to get his message to the rest of the team, of were his years of training all a waste, as he could not penetrate the minds of is compatriots?   I ask this because we know there are uses _besides_ "attack attack attack" for illusions.  If, as you suggested, failing to overcome EGO to a "convinced me it's real" level means he didn't see it at all, then there's a very obvious shortcoming to using this power as anything _other_ than an attack:

 

"Here; I will show you the layout of Balakar's keep, and the secret passages within."

"Oh; that's amazing!  Quick; memorize this as best you can!"

"Amazing.  What's this here; is that a spike trap?"

"What the Hell are you people talking about? I can't see _crap_!"

 

Why is the image-caster rolling his mOCV against my mDCV if the Illusion is not affected by willpower?  How is it that I make an EGO roll to shake off the effects of the illusion?   Both of those rolls/mechanics have been there since the very beginning - clearly, the illusion is in my mind, and I can resist it if I am strong-willed.  In fact, only in 6e was mDCV divorced from Ego - that is, raw strength of will.

 

What you describe above sounds a lot more like a form of Telepathic communication, in that Telepathy can both broadcast and read thoughts.  From 6e V1 mp 299, "Ordinarily, a Telepath can both send and read thoughts."  I'd consider allowing it through a Mind Link as well.  But a picture of the map, hovering in the air for all to see?  That sounds a lot more like Images than Telepathy.  Can a wily rogue, secreted in the shadows, also see the layout of Balakar's Keep?

 

Even if we wish this to be a mental power, the rules are pretty clear that you can choose to reduce your defenses.  I would extend that to mDCV, EGO and Mental Defenses.  Although an interesting mechanic would be the requirement of an EGO roll to suppress your automatic mental resistance.

 

11 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

An illusion (of any stripe) doesn't have to be convincing to be useful.  Nobody thought there was really a six-inch princess dictating a message into a robot.  It was still useful, though.  But had it been a mental illusion that had to overcome EGO in the way you suggest, well it was a pretty crappy illusion.  No one would have seen it, and Luke would be on his way back from Taschi Station with power convertors.  Of course, his aunt an uncle would still be alive, so it's not all bad.

 

That was not a mental illusion.  Droids are not psychic force users.  Anyone standing there could have seen it, not just Luke - which is why Artoo did not just broadcast it in the sandcrawler with all the Jawas running around.  That was a great example of Images with no PER roll penalty - easily detected as an image, but still perceived if detected.

 

11 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Our sticking point-- me and you, that is-- seems to be that you believe Mental Illusions override the target's senses.

 

I would, out of curiosity, like to ask to assess, as accurately as you can, if you believed that when you were playing the older editions as well.

 

I ask because 4e, there wasn't even a _suggestion_ that they worked this way.  The target saw an image in his mind, and if he was intelligent enough, he knew it wasn't real. 

 

OK, let's test that:

 

  T

his power allows a character to project Illusions directly into an opponent's mind. After making an Attack Roll based on Ego Combat Value, the character defines what illusion he wants the target to see. The character then ro11s 1D6 for every 5 pts. In Mental Illusions, subtracts the target's Ego Defense (if any), and the remainder is compared to the target's INT according to the fol lowing chart.

 

"After making an Attack Roll based on Ego Combat Value" - you must overcome the target's resistance to mental attacks, or nothing will happen.

 

"Subtracts the target's Ego Defense" - why, if the question is whether the illusion is realistic enough to fool the target, based on his intelligence?

 

To me, this looks more like earlier editions using INT, rather than EGO, as a resistance stat for some mental attacks.  Similarly, perhaps PRE attacks should be resisted with Ego (willpower) rather than PRE (being impressive oneself).

 

11 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

There is nothing in there about overwhelming or short-circuiting the target's senses.  It specifically says "project illusions directly into an opponent's mind."

 

This would suggest to me that the target's senses are completely _bypassed_, and not overwhelmed.  The "compare to Intelligence" mechanic reinforces that for me: Is the defender quick-thinking enough to notice that there is a fire burning?  Does he notice it has no scent?

 

The issue here seems to be what "projecting illusions directly into the target's mind" means.  To me, it means overriding what the character's senses perceive, and rather forcing him to believe he is receiving different sensory input.  This is not affected, in any way, by how good his senses are, or even how smart and perceptive he is.  His own mind is directed to creating the perceptions his attacker wants him to experience.  Comparing to INT suggests his own senses ARE engaged, especially if he can break the illusion by noticing the lack of heat or smoke.  Bypassing his senses suggests he will believe the fire exists, to the point of feeling the heat and smelling the smoke, and even seeing it in infrared and through his radar sense, neither of which the attacker possesses.  That is what Mental Illusions should do, IMO, and what it does under the present rules.

 

By contrast, an Image that lacks IR, thermal, scent and radar components would not fool the same target. 

 

Once we get to 4e, there's that "disbelieve" term we love so much - the target's own willpower fighting to restore the target to perceiving what is real, not what the attacker wants him to perceive.

 

SUMMARY:  It seems that neither of us believe the target's senses have anything to do with the success of mental illusions.  The attacker bypasses the target's senses, forcing his mind to ignore real sensory input in favour of the mental illusions desired.  It is not his senses that cause the illusion - his mind ignores real sensory input in favour of the illusion.  With a Breakout roll, his mind restores its connection to real sensory input, throwing off the mental compulsion to perceive/believe something different.

 

11 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

I submit to you, Hugh---  and not lightly; don't think that for a moment!  I have enjoyed this, but I have sat here on this single post for three hours, and am _not_ going to finish the rest of it, at least not now.  But I submit to you, in compassionate sincerity, that the use of the PER roll as a "get out of illusion free card" is not just counter to logic, but quite possibly wrong according to the rules as well.

 

We agree that senses are irrelevant to Mental Illusions.  That is a mechanic we have had since 1e.

 

What Light Illusions, eventually Images, provided was a completely different ability.  Not the ability to cause a target to believe he was perceiving something different than what was there, but the ability to create false sensory inputs, which could be detected if the target was perceptive enough, but not thrown off by sheer force of will.

 

A Hologram is not a Mental Illusion - it is an Image - a Physical Illusion, if you will. 

 

A Mental Illusion [choose the word you prefer] bypasses/avoids/overrides/overwhelms/circumvents the target's senses.  The target perceives what the attacker wishes to perceive, and perceives it in a manner convincing to all of his senses.  His own mind creates the illusion, under the direction of the opponent.

 

An Image, or Physical Illusion, appears to all who have the appropriate sense(s) and are in range to perceive it.  The target cannot throw off the sensory input through sheer willpower - that sensory input is there.  In that sense, the Image is "real".  He can, however, potentially perceive the flaws in that Image.  It may be easy.  No sound?   No radar image?  It does not smell right.  Or it may be that the Image is very sophisticated - nearly flawless in its execution.  But it cannot be willed away - it must be detected - perceived - as being something other than what it appears.

 

Having two different resolution mechanics makes perfect sense when we are dealing with two entirely different abilities.

[Duke Bushido]

Hugh:

 

It appears that we agree on the vast majority of the many points and bits of this conversation.  Given that, and given the number of splitting-outs of this discussion, I am not going to attempt to quote all that has gone before from either of us: at this point, I don't feel there is anything to be gained, as all we seem to disagree on-- at least right now (   )-- is the need for a unique mechanic for Light Illusions / Sounds / Images.

 

As always, it has been a high-water mark of the experience here, and I thank you for it.   unfortunately, I have devoted all the time I can-- and some I really couldn't afford-- to the discussion, and I have tend a few things then get ready for the work week coming, so I must let it go.

 

Until next time, my friend!  

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Duke, I think a lot of the discussion has been talking past each other, with unclear terminology.

 

I think the point of disagreement is how Images should be resolved.  If I understand your comments, you believe it should be "points rolled over INT" much like mental powers resolve based on EGO and PRE attacks on PRE.

 

To me, that makes many powers harder, not easier, to build.  Images should not automatically apply against all senses, so forcing that into a limitation would weaken the mechanic for me.

 

However, I do not see "make a PER roll" as a unique mechanic.  It is a power which leverages the PER roll mechanic.  So do many skills.  Bugging Disguise,  Gambling, Lip Reading, Mimicry, Shadowing, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Ventriloquism. 

 

Change Environment introduces camouflage and other effects requiring a PER roll.  Of course, Enhanced Senses make use of the mechanic.  Images also has the option of making perception easier instead of harder (buy bonuses to PER rolls) to make perception easier - the light or megaphone mechanic.  The fringe effect of Invisibility uses PER rolls. 

 

Like Images, Shape Shift relies on senses affected.  So do Flash and Invisibility.

 

Powers using the PER roll mechanics are not "creating a unique mechanic" but leveraging an existing in-game mechanic.

[steriaca]

Here is a compermise of sorts. There are no "Images" power in 7ed. "Mental Illusion" are renamed "Illusion", and there is a +0 advantage in it called "Image" which makes it a holographic thing somehow. The advantage...everyone can perceive it regardless of if they believe it to be real or not. The limitation...it can never cause direct harm to another.

 

This, leave the floating orb of light or magic mouth spell to Change Environment.

 

The other thing I like is folding Blast and Hand-To-Hand Attack together and call it simply Attack. Get rid of the mandatory limitation of Hand-To-Hand, since Killing Attack has no mandatory limitation for not having range.

[Hugh Neilson]

Why merge Images and Mental Illusions when they do two different things with different mechanics?  I'd rather fold Images into Change Environment (and no, I am not advocating that).

 

If I have to pay 5 points to ad 1d6 of HTH damage, and I can pay 5 points for +5 STR which gives me HTH damage, lifting, Grab, Escape, etc. etc., why would I ever buy HTH attack?  A martial arts DC costs less and does more.  Maybe we should price non-martial DCs at 4 points (or just price HTH DCs at 4 points, and "damage only" DCs at 3 points).

 

My comments on HKA vs RKA are upthread somewhere, but I would merge the two and get rid of "STR adds to HTH" as a mechanic.  There's your real orphan mechanic!

[Duke Bushido]

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Duke, I think a lot of the discussion has been talking past each other, with unclear terminology.

 

Agreed; one-hundred percent.  Not just the unclear terms, but the fact that we can quote precisely what we are responding to, but no part of the conversation before that.  It's difficult to track.  Factor in the natural need to verify or confirm individual points of any reply, and it gets messy fast.  

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

I think the point of disagreement is how Images should be resolved.  If I understand your comments, you believe it should be "points rolled over INT" much like mental powers resolve based on EGO and PRE attacks on PRE.

 

I swear, I am dropping this after this post before we waste a lot of time muddying the waters for each other again.     "Lesson learned" and all that.

 

But no; not _exactly_.  I believe the mechanic for whether or no the non-mental illusion (hereafter referred to as the NMI, to avoid confusion) is _believed to be real_ by the target should be similar: was the NMI so shockingly / naturally real to the target as to create a momentary lapse in judgement that lead to him not immediately questioning what he perceived?  That is the mechanic-- "Determining the realism"?  Does that seem explanatory enough?  At any rate, I believe that this mechanic should not have been changed to its current incarnation.  There are a number of reasons for that, but as I said: I would like to drop this so I won't go beyond this one reason:

 

If someone has enough dice / rolls high enough (up to x14 INT or higher in older editions; up to INT +40 in later editions) to gain deceive that character-- even if it's just for that one single Phase the target will stand in awe---   , well as dumb as it sounds, the attacker _deserves_ that small reward.  He _earned_ it with good rolls; he _paid for it_ when he bought enough dice to make it possible.

 

Things that I _think_ muddied the waters here; I have made a couple of re-reads to try to find out why we were still stuck on the same points (other than the obvious "each of us _prefers_ a different mechanic, but realistically, neither of us has a real problem with that; the discussion is the fun part.   ) :

 

I tracked the history of the development of the power from it's house-rule variants (sure we weren't the only ones) of using some version of "mental powers based on CON" or removing the "based on ECV" component or what-have-you from Mental Illusions through it's first appearance as Light Illusions, and its formal appearance as Sounds opening the way to apply NMI to other senses.  For whatever reason, I think you keyed strongly on the "Light Illusions v Sight" aspect of that with neither of us actually realizing it, and I was picturing an NMI build that worked against all the senses (primarily because, outside of fantasy and sci-fi, that's what most of my players with NMI super powers build: multi-sense experiences).  Problematically, I had not actually _stated_ that, and we both simply assumed that we were on the same page.  This lead to some confusing (for both of us) discussion of PER rolls.

 

So, if I may, just to clear the air on that:

 

I am _totally_ in favor of a PER roll based on an un-affected sense to aid a character in realizing that what he is seeing is false.  Throughout the course of our conversation, it had not occurred to me that such was precisely what you were saying: the use of an unaffected sense.  However, as I noted, I will not let it be instantaneous-- If the attacker doesn't provide a convincing illusion, then the target needs no assistance and will recognize it as an illusion immediately.  If the attacker _does_ provide a convincing illusion, then for the remainder of the target's Phase, he will consider it to be real-- the momentary confusion / lapse in judgement I referred to several times.  He may, however, get his "breakout rolls" (I usually do INT roll modified by the attacker's success level, with-- well, it doesn't matter, as that wasn't part of the discussion: I don't want to open up something else!    )  At any rate, his breakout rolls / PER Rolls will begin on his next Phase.

 

Another thing that muddied it was, without a clear statement otherwise, for the _longest_ time I thought you were talking about PER rolls v Mental Illusions, and that was driving me crackers!  

 

It was actually at the point that I realized that you _weren't_ talking about MI that I said "well, this conversation, at least as it is, needs to be tabled for a bit" and began wandering through the upthread trying to figure out where we got crossed up.  Not a lot of luck, but lots of, as you say, "talking past each other."

 

Cases in point:

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

To me, that makes many powers harder, not easier, to build. 

 

 

I have no idea what that's referencing (no, Amigo; please don't tell me: we'll take it up again at some other time.  Right now, it's just an example of frustrating the quoting system is: I can see what you said, but not what you said it about, or what _that_ was said about.  It gets maddening, and the more points are made, the more difficult it gets, particularly when you actually have things in 3d land important enough to garner the bulk of your mental faculties.  You know:  when you're grown ups.  

 

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Images should not automatically apply against all senses, so forcing that into a limitation would weaken the mechanic for me.

 

That.

 

That right there.

 

That was the _moment_ I knew we were considering two radically-different NMI builds.   What-- four?  Five pages into the conversation?     It had never occurred to either of us clarify terms, post, or request a sample build for discussion.

 

It's only funny because it actually _happened_.   It's only hilarious because we _both_ know better.  

 

 

 

 

So yes:  I think we have both made some _excellent_ points that had nothing to do with what the other guy was talking about.  We should both go home and congratulate ourselves for remembering that establishing some parameters results in _way_ less time wasted.  

 

 

Still, though:

 

It's always a real hoot discussing things like this with you, Hugh; even when we screw it up.    

 

 

[steriaca]

4 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Why merge Images and Mental Illusions when they do two different things with different mechanics?  I'd rather fold Images into Change Environment (and no, I am not advocating that).

 

If I have to pay 5 points to ad 1d6 of HTH damage, and I can pay 5 points for +5 STR which gives me HTH damage, lifting, Grab, Escape, etc. etc., why would I ever buy HTH attack?  A martial arts DC costs less and does more.  Maybe we should price non-martial DCs at 4 points (or just price HTH DCs at 4 points, and "damage only" DCs at 3 points).

 

My comments on HKA vs RKA are upthread somewhere, but I would merge the two and get rid of "STR adds to HTH" as a mechanic.  There's your real orphan mechanic!

Simply put, outlaw +STR, Only For Damage. They state already that you can't do that "officially" anyways.

 

As for Illusions and Images, why do we have two different mechanics which do the same thing? I can understand Normal Damage vs Killing Damage. They kinda do the same, but also are much different damage types.

 

Just say no for multiple powers which do the same thing.

[Lucius]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

I am _totally_ in favor of a PER roll based on an un-affected sense to aid a character in realizing that what he is seeing is false. 

 

 

 

You managed to give me for one the impression you were opposed to using Perception rolls at all.

 

In any case, I still have to disagree. If an Image is targeting Sight, for example, someone who has a bonus to Sight rolls should have a better chance of seeing some flaw in the image that gives it away as unreal.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

For example, a  third head is a clue that something is not a real palindromedary

 

[Lucius]

30 minutes ago, steriaca said:

 

As for Illusions and Images, why do we have two different mechanics which do the same thing?

 

Illusions and Images are not two different mechanics which do the same thing. They are two different mechanics which do two different things.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary asserts that there is certainly a greater difference between them than between Normal and Killing damage.

[Duke Bushido]

24 minutes ago, steriaca said:

As for Illusions and Images, why do we have two different mechanics which do the same thing? I can understand Normal Damage vs Killing Damage. They kinda do the same, but also are much different damage types.

 

Just say no for multiple powers which do the same thing.

 

 

Because technically they _don't_ do the same thing.  A mental illusion provides full sensory input to one target, and one target only (unless advantaged up quite a bit).  A non-mental illusion provides input to _one_ sense, and provides it simultaneously to anyone how is able to perceive the location at which is it placed.  One is internal, entirely in the target's mind; the other is external, akin to a hologram or a musical greeting card.

 

_however_----

 

As the newer editions have done a lot of "folding in" of Powers-- re-expressing them as cobbles of other powers, such as Transfer becoming Drain and Aid, or Instant Change becoming T-form, etc--  A fairly solid argument could be made to eliminate one or the other (if you're tracking, I'd say eliminate Mental Illusions, as it's a more "feature-packed" build) and build the other using advantages, limitations, or what-have-you on the one that remains.  

 

Assuming that Images stayed and Mental Illusions is to be built as a cobble, you could take Images, whatever modifiers or adders 6e uses to increase the number of sense groups a power affects, then based on ECV, and perhaps a Limitation that it can target only one character at a time---  there you go.  

 

Just a suggestion, mind you.  I'm not hugely in favor of any of the folding in, but I _do_ understand it.

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

Ah, Hero System dueling dissections. Makes me feel nostalgic... and content that I don't do this any more.

[Doc Democracy]

It is amazing, given that I am confident I could pick up any supplement from any edition and use it in my 6th Edition game because the system is close enough that I could integrate on the fly.

 

Obviously, us fans are invested in the rules and versions of the rules, the marketplace demands new product.  To that end, a company will repeatedly update, refresh and republish its rules, it needs to constantly produce money to stay in money and over time, a new edition is a more guaranteed money generator than anything else.

 

Beyond that, most writers began as fans and want to see their vision of the game immortalised in an edition - they want to show everyone else their vision of the game. In the olden days this was an issue - the rules were printed and bought, and if a new edition came out, it was impossible to get enough copies of older editions for a new group (and there was no ebay to scour).  Today, there is ready access to the text of EVERY edition.  Everyone can play the edition they most enjoy and access those rules for any players in their group that wants them.  There are no edition cops who will swoop down on you to confiscate illegal rulesets and to punish BadWrongFun.

 

We should, now, be able to watch new editions with interest, choose to change our games in the light of that edition (or not) and to ponder the merits of old versus new without the heat, there is nothing at stake beyond personal opinion.  New editions HAVE to change things if they are to be worth producing - I would be SEVERELY upset if I bought 7th edition and it was essentially a word for word rehash of ANY previous edition.  I have them all...

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

10 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

But no; not _exactly_.  I believe the mechanic for whether or no the non-mental illusion (hereafter referred to as the NMI, to avoid confusion) is _believed to be real_ by the target should be similar: was the NMI so shockingly / naturally real to the target as to create a momentary lapse in judgement that lead to him not immediately questioning what he perceived?  That is the mechanic-- "Determining the realism"?  Does that seem explanatory enough?  At any rate, I believe that this mechanic should not have been changed to its current incarnation.  There are a number of reasons for that, but as I said: I would like to drop this so I won't go beyond this one reason:

 

If someone has enough dice / rolls high enough (up to x14 INT or higher in older editions; up to INT +40 in later editions) to gain deceive that character-- even if it's just for that one single Phase the target will stand in awe---   , well as dumb as it sounds, the attacker _deserves_ that small reward.  He _earned_ it with good rolls; he _paid for it_ when he bought enough dice to make it possible.

 

Just for clarity, I think we have the mental illusions settled and are only dealing with NMI/images.

 

I think a key difference here is that I do not believe we need a random roll by the attacker to make this determination.  Rather, whether the target was momentarily fooled depends on his PER roll.  The images - whether just sight, only hearing, or every sense group in a sophisticated package - seek to trick the target.  Whether he is tricked depends on how perceptive he is.  Not whether he is super-intelligent or dumb as a post,  but whether he is hyper-perceptive or misses the obvious.

 

Images seeks to cause a misperception.  We already have a mechanic for perception.  There is no compelling reason to create a new one.  Whether one perceives that this is a pretend image rather than the real deal is best resolved by the target's skill at perceiving - the PER roll.

 

10 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

I am _totally_ in favor of a PER roll based on an un-affected sense to aid a character in realizing that what he is seeing is false.  Throughout the course of our conversation, it had not occurred to me that such was precisely what you were saying: the use of an unaffected sense.  However, as I noted, I will not let it be instantaneous-- If the attacker doesn't provide a convincing illusion, then the target needs no assistance and will recognize it as an illusion immediately.  If the attacker _does_ provide a convincing illusion, then for the remainder of the target's Phase, he will consider it to be real-- the momentary confusion / lapse in judgement I referred to several times.  He may, however, get his "breakout rolls" (I usually do INT roll modified by the attacker's success level, with-- well, it doesn't matter, as that wasn't part of the discussion: I don't want to open up something else!    )  At any rate, his breakout rolls / PER Rolls will begin on his next Phase.

 

For me, not affecting a sense that should be present reduces the quality of the image as a whole.  That should provide a bonus to the target.  It does not smell right?  Then that is pretty obvious to Captain  Bloodhound.  Alternatively, maybe we  pick the sense  most likely to detect the image (smell works great for a skunk; not so much for a wall - whichever sense the target is best with AND is relevant is the roll) and allow exceptional PER with another relevant sense to act as a complementary roll.  "It does  not smell at all" seems like something obvious if it should have a scent.

 

Let's assume Images of a sound.  A child's cry from down a dark alleyway might fool a target.  Would a lion's roar right in front of him fool a sighted man?

 

9 hours ago, steriaca said:

Simply put, outlaw +STR, Only For Damage. They state already that you can't do that "officially" anyways.

 

As for Illusions and Images, why do we have two different mechanics which do the same thing? I can understand Normal Damage vs Killing Damage. They kinda do the same, but also are much different damage types.

 

Just say no for multiple powers which do the same thing.

 

Frankly, anything the rules say "you can't do" makes me question the appropriateness of the pricing.  Pre-6e, "you can't sell back more than one Figured" existed because you got more Figured points from STR and CON than they cost.

 

As to illusions and images:

 

8 hours ago, Lucius said:

 

Illusions and Images are not two different mechanics which do the same thing. They are two different mechanics which do two different things.

 

 

8 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

Because technically they _don't_ do the same thing.  A mental illusion provides full sensory input to one target, and one target only (unless advantaged up quite a bit).  A non-mental illusion provides input to _one_ sense, and provides it simultaneously to anyone how is able to perceive the location at which is it placed.  One is internal, entirely in the target's mind; the other is external, akin to a hologram or a musical greeting card.

 

 

Mysterio creates images - high tech holograms with sound and other components to fool the viewer.  That's not mental illusions, it's images.  The traditional Telepath moving a target to perceptions of his own creation uses mental illusions.

[steriaca]

Ok. Mysterio does a complicated series of holograms and backing sounds, heat flairs, and smell pods to create his illusions? How is that different than Kraven the Hunter spraying your face with a hallucinogenic drug? Or being in the vicinity of The Purple Man? So mental powers vs CON are ok, but mental powers vs INT not ok? Or physical powers vs EGO, like mental paralysis? Why is one ok and the other not? Why do we have the powers Mental Illusions and Mind Control and not Drugged Illusions and Drugged Surgestions? Why? Because it all boils down to Special Effects. Kraven's hallucinogenic drug is Mental Illusions with the appropriate limitations. Same with The Purple Man's commands (except for Mind Control vs CON).

 

So, why is Mystero's illusions different enough that we have to go the Images rout? Sure, everyone can perceive them. So what.

 

One of the APG has a great thing about "Based on Characteristics". It is a good thing to look over.

 

Should Images be kicked to the side? Honestly I don't know. But I will have a hard time convincing you that Images = Illusions, and you will have a tough time convincing me that Images, in there purest function <> Illusions.

[Chris Goodwin]

If we go back to reasoning from effect: if I want to make one or more other characters perceive something that isn't really there, we have two different Powers, with two different mechanics; one of them is a Mental Power, with all of its implied special effects, and one is not, with its own set of different, implied special effects.  

 

Over time, most of the power pairs like that have been collapsed down into one or another Power; we used to have Armor and Force Field, for instance, but now we have Resistant Protection.  We used to have Flight and Gliding, now we have Gliding as a separate use case of Flight, and a Limitation for Gliding Only; Aid, Healing, and Regeneration have been combined and separated in various permutations as well.  Mental Illusions and Images seems like the sort of thing that would have been collapsed into one as well, except that this line of discussion indicates why that probably wasn't done.  

 

If we were going to collapse the two of them together, using the 3rd-through-6th edition typical design paths, we'd probably end up with an "Illusions" Power.  At its base, it would probably be Light Illusions and Sounds combined for its base mechanic.  To go against a Targeting Sense group would probably cost 5 points per d6, against a non-targeting Sense group probably 3 points per d6.  Adding Sense Groups would be an adder, +10 points for a targeting group and +5 points for a non-targeting group, or +5 for a targeting sense and +3 for a non-targeting sense.  You'd roll the dice, compare to each viewer's INT, and that determines how likely the target is to accept the illusion as real, probably the same charts from Champions II and FH 1e.  It probably would be based around an area, would have a cost for increasing it; probably would start at 1" radius, +10 points for +1" radius.  It might require an Attack Roll to precisely place the area, but it wouldn't require one to affect viewers; it's assumed that it would affect anyone who can sense the Illusion, regardless of where they're viewing it from.

 

If you wanted to make it equivalent to a Mental Illusion, you would in this case be applying Limitations to it.  You could add Single Target Only (-1/2?) to affect only a single person in a single hex, assuming you haven't bought up the area, though that Limitation might require you to roll an Attack Roll (normally OCV vs. DCV) to target the viewer.  If you wanted to make it fully a Mental Power, affecting only that target, you'd need to add Invisible Power Effects and Based On ECV.  Probably a Modifier for Works Against Ego rather than INT.  There might be an exception condition that allows you to build it to affect the Mental Sense Group in this particular case (probably similar to the exception conditions making Regeneration a Healing build in 5th or Suppress a Drain build in 6th), and it would affect any Senses the target possesses, or maybe you'd just have to suck it up and buy it against all of the Sense Groups; I think Steve Long probably would have gone with the former, myself. If you wanted illusionary attacks to do STUN and/or BODY to the affected target, you'd buy those as separate Attack Powers, linked to the Illusions, probably with the "Requires Ego+20" or "Requires Ego+30" Limitations  .  

 

This change would have been one of the changes that might have set a number of us on edge (Duke and myself, in particular  ) and we'd be having a probably slightly different discussion in this thread.  

 

Note that besides Mental Illusions and Images, we have two other Powers that affect senses in some way: the Transmit adder for Enhanced Senses, and Shapeshift (affects sense groups).  

[Chris Goodwin]

It occurs to me that Justice Inc. (first-gen) has its own versions of several Powers, which while not an exact fit to the Images (4th+) mechanical structure, are probably closer to that than they are to the diced-comparison mechanic. 

 

I believe Mind Link (4th+) came out of Aaron Allston's usage of JI Telepathy in the Strike Force campaign to represent a dedicated link between two characters, as it didn't exist in any form in first-gen other than that.  

[Duke Bushido]

14 hours ago, Lucius said:

In any case, I still have to disagree. If an Image is targeting Sight, for example, someone who has a bonus to Sight rolls should have a better chance of seeing some flaw in the image that gives it away as unreal. 

 

 

 

Why? 

 

Why does your ability to perceive affect the caster's ability to create? 

Edited September 30, 2019 by Duke Bushido
To explain: I don't necessarily disagree; I'm just curious

[Chris Goodwin]

Just now, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

Why? 

 

Why does your ability to perceive affect the caster's ability to create? 

 

It doesn't, necessarily, but no image is perfect.  Images charges more for less imperfection (greater PER penalty).  

 

Potentially, we ought to give more skilled creators a better chance of fooling a target; with Images that's easy enough to do:  additional PER penalties based on a Skill Roll.

[Chris Goodwin]

Just now, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

Why? 

 

Why does your ability to perceive affect the caster's ability to create? 

 

It doesn't, necessarily, but no image is perfect.  Images charges more for less imperfection (greater PER penalty).  

 

Potentially, we ought to give more skilled creators a better chance of fooling a target; with Images that's easy enough to do:  additional PER penalties based on a Skill Roll.

[Duke Bushido]

Is Per bought separately in 6e, or is it still derived from INT? 

[Chris Goodwin]

5 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Is Per bought separately in 6e, or is it still derived from INT? 

 

It's still derived from INT.  

[Greywind]

3 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Why? 

 

Why does your ability to perceive affect the caster's ability to create? 

 

"You betray yourself, old man."

 

 

[Lucius]

3 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

'Why? 

 

Why does your ability to perceive affect the caster's ability to create? 

 

It doesn't, nor have I said it does, nor is that implied by anything I have said.

 

But as long as we're throwing around why questions, why is it your position that my ability to perceive does not affect my ability to perceive?
 

Lucius Alexander

 

I perceive a palindromedary, but is it real?

[Duke Bushido]

It's not.