Passports, Drivers Licenses, and other Credentials under Fringe Benefits

[greysword]

Hi Everyone,

 

I have a question about when a player should be made to purchase a credential as a Fringe Benefit and when it should just be a "free" item.

 

Do you make a player purchase the Drivers License fringe benefit if they want to operate a car, or is a drivers license a free item?  How do you differentiate the situations that govern the two costs (free vs CP)?

 

For international travel, do you make the character purchase the Passport fringe benefit if they want to fly to Europe from the US?  How about China?  If purchased with Character Points, does the Passport benefit include the Visa requirement, as well as having a passport?  If a super flies to Rio De Janeiro via commercial airline in their civilian ID, would they get a free passport, but if they flew into the city using Flight or Teleport, would they need to buy the Passport perk?

 

Does a character need to buy a Professional License (doctor, lawyer, stock broker, PI, etc) using character points if they have the Professional Skill(s) and a history in their background?  If they do purchase the license but not any professional or knowledge skills, does this allow them to make skill rolls in that profession? If not, how could they pass the bar/medical board if they didn't have the skill/knowledge?

 

In short, what does a character get when they spend 1 CP for a drivers license, passport, or license to practice a profession?  When do you give a credential fringe benefit for "free" (everyman) opposed to requiring the player to spend a CP?

 

Thanks for your help!

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

Everyone knows how to drive, for free.  Everyone is assumed to have a civilian ID vehicle, for free, unless specified (though relying on your car for superheroics may cause you problems).  Does it make sense to then charge for the ability to legally drive?  God no. 

Same logic for PSes.  They bought the ability to practice [profession].  Does it make sense to then charge them again for the ability to practice [profession] legally?  God no. 

Passport can be interesting though.  See, not having a passport (and not having somebody in the team who can double as a private jet) can cause problems getting to another country to fight supercrime.  Interesting problems, ones that can be fun to play out interesting solutions to.  But I still wouldn't charge people points for it, I'd just say "Hey, do you have a passport?  Like, listed on your sheet or as a logical consequence of your other things listed on your sheet?  No?  Man, it takes weeks to get one and that's too long.  What do you do?" and then assume they have one after that plot arc is over. 

 

Generally speaking, my "Do I charge for fringe benefit" test is "Will having this thing give this particular character an interesting advantage and does it not follow logically as a requirement to use something else they have and does it give them the benefit even if nobody else on the team has one?".  Only if that comes up yes do I expect points be paid. 

Driver's License and Professional License fail the second clause.  Passport fails the third clause. 

[greysword]

44 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Generally speaking, my "Do I charge for fringe benefit" test is:

 

1) Will having this thing give this particular character an interesting advantage?

 

2) Does it not follow logically as a requirement to use something else they have?

 

3) Does it give them the benefit even if nobody else on the team has one?

 

Only if that comes up yes do I expect points be paid.  Driver's License and Professional License fail the second clause.  Passport fails the third clause. 

 

I understand, and this is an excellent answer!  Thank you.

 

The event that triggered this question is specific, but this could set the precedent for similar actions.

 

 

P.S.  The event that triggered the question is one of my players has mega-scale flight and is naive.  Thus, he likes to travel to other countries and investigate "new things".  He not only flies into countries to go shopping or have lunch, broadcasting live on social media, but he has recently started doing things that might upset the State Department.  For instance, he flew to Greece and got involved in a pissing match that the Turkish Air Force was having with the Greek Air Force.  He also flew to Russia and involved himself in help Russian citizen injured by an accidental nuclear issue/explosion.  He bought 1CP in Passport, and we are debating if that would cover the character entering into any country legally without going through a port of entry, even if the nation wasn't friendly to the US.  He argued that the Passport perk included the required Visas from the destination country.  I thought it was simply a Passport (liek a Drivers License is just that, and an International DL cost more).  Just wanted to share : )

[Surrealone]

12 hours ago, greysword said:

The event that triggered this question is specific, but this could set the precedent for similar actions.

 

 

P.S.  The event that triggered the question is one of my players has mega-scale flight and is naive.  Thus, he likes to travel to other countries and investigate "new things".  He not only flies into countries to go shopping or have lunch, broadcasting live on social media, but he has recently started doing things that might upset the State Department.  For instance, he flew to Greece and got involved in a pissing match that the Turkish Air Force was having with the Greek Air Force.  He also flew to Russia and involved himself in help Russian citizen injured by an accidental nuclear issue/explosion.  He bought 1CP in Passport, and we are debating if that would cover the character entering into any country legally without going through a port of entry, even if the nation wasn't friendly to the US.  He argued that the Passport perk included the required Visas from the destination country.  I thought it was simply a Passport (liek a Drivers License is just that, and an International DL cost more).  Just wanted to share : )

 

Food for thought:
If he never lands, then technically he hasn't set foot on foreign soil.  And if he's low enough to be beneath what is considered 'navigable airspace'  (which has a very specific definition per the FAA - below 500 feet), then he's not in this or another country's airspace.  Very technically.

i.e. So long as he hovers or flies … without ever touching the ground … below 500 feet … a governmental entity would have a hell of a time arresting him on any solid legal merit  … because he'd be flying/floating in a big legal grey area (off the ground and under 500 feet -- never having set foot on foreign soil or flown in its sovereign, navigable airspace). This is, of course, exploitation of a loophole caused by our laws not being written to account for people who can hover/fly.  A government could certainly arrest him, anyway, but a good attorney would have him out in a matter of hours and, if the government pursued it, likely be able to extract all kinds of money out of said government for civil rights violations (since no laws were technically broken) …. assuming the government recognizes civil rights.

If the character lacks lots of Wealth, this could be a fun storyline to get him to a wealthy state.  i.e. Good result coming from bad situation/complication that would require RP. 

 

Just a thought...

Surreal

P.S. And if the government passes laws to close that loophole, a good attorney could logically file a discrimination suit, since it treats hovering/flying people differently from those who cannot -- and likely win and extract more money from the government based on unequal treatment of persons via discriminatory laws (in addition to having said laws struck by the court).

[greysword]

That's a good point, Surreal.  This is mainly just background story stuff (what he does when not with the team).  However, he has landed and been shot at by the Russia military.  He also has taken pictures in a Russian mall/shopping center.  As for the dog fight, that was over international waters, but the Greek authorities are hamming it up as US intervention on their behalf.  of course, this is the player's side story he is creating, and eventually it will find it's way into the game. 

 

<sigh>  the whole group are a bunch of lawless degenerates 😄

 

The universe is the standard Champions Universe (basically), so the world's government have had decades to come up with rules and laws governing superhuman activities.  I just don't know what they are.  I'm sure there would be something on the books about these events.

[dsatow]

If I were to guess, if the hero is not registered to a official country's government, a vigilante, then they would be prosecuted as an illegal alien and criminal, possibly terrorist.  If they have a extradition policy with the US, they could captured in the US and extradited to that country.  This assumes no legal challenges which could take years.

 

If they were registered to a country's government, they could either be arrested as a spy/agent of the government or be given diplomatic immunity depending on their status as a government employee.  In either case, the government would probably get them out of the problem but they wouldn't be allowed back into the country.  If they did re-enter the country illegally, the government's hands would be tied or it would be very painful for the government to extract the hero.

[Duke Bushido]

On January 27, 2020 at 11:06 PM, greysword said:

Hi Everyone,

 

I have a question about when a player should be made to purchase a credential as a Fringe Benefit and when it should just be a "free" item.

 

Do you make a player purchase the Drivers License fringe benefit if they want to operate a car, or is a drivers license a free item?  How do you differentiate the situations that govern the two costs (free vs CP)?

 

For international travel, do you make the character purchase the Passport fringe benefit if they want to fly to Europe from the US?  How about China?  If purchased with Character Points, does the Passport benefit include the Visa requirement, as well as having a passport?  If a super flies to Rio De Janeiro via commercial airline in their civilian ID, would they get a free passport, but if they flew into the city using Flight or Teleport, would they need to buy the Passport perk?

 

Does a character need to buy a Professional License (doctor, lawyer, stock broker, PI, etc) using character points if they have the Professional Skill(s) and a history in their background?  If they do purchase the license but not any professional or knowledge skills, does this allow them to make skill rolls in that profession? If not, how could they pass the bar/medical board if they didn't have the skill/knowledge?

 

In short, what does a character get when they spend 1 CP for a drivers license, passport, or license to practice a profession?  When do you give a credential fringe benefit for "free" (everyman) opposed to requiring the player to spend a CP?

 

Thanks for your help!

 

 

I'm gonna level with ya:

 

I'm pretty much like GB(i): I assume that everyone can have whatever credentials / permissions / papers come with being a citizen of where they're from.  If said item is a reasonably common thing-- driver's license, passport, Diploma, Social Security Card, big ol' stack of bills and random calls from telemarketers who are very much earning their place in Hell as we speak----  

 

You know what I love?  "This is X with the warranty department.  Your current motor vehicle warranty is about to run out."  Really?!  Oh, no!  Would that be warranty on the '01, the '99, the 98, the 86, or the '68?   Tell me!  Please!  I need your warranty coverage!"

 

Idiots.

 

Anyway, the only place I even _consider_ it might be appropriate to charge a single point is if the _costumed identity_ has these privileges, and even then, I don't see any need to break it down more than "Citizenship: 1pt."   Well, maybe you could put Zero Endurance on your citizenship, but that seems a little much.

 

I compare things-- apples to oranges is really the only way to get a feel for how ludicrous something can get:

 

if I charge a single point for each of the following:

 

Citizenship

Driver's License

Bank account / ATM card (or should I charge a point each?)

Social Security card

Passport

Library card

cell phone

 

 

well, let's stop there, because as a player, I flat ain't doin' it.  I mean _screw_ that!  Seven points already?   That's more than a die of energy blast, and halfway to a die of Killing Attack.  Or Flight.  Sure, seven points of Flight isn't _much_ flight, but it's a _Hell of a lot_ more than _no_ points of Flight, I think.

 

If bookkeeping and accounting are your thing, then go for it, but even a point each, so much of this stuff just _isn't_ going to happen.

 

Another way of looking at it:

 

If your particular campaign _requires_ such ....  heck, these aren't even "perklets."  These are just taxes if you're buying them one at a time.  Anyway, if your game _requires_ them, then you should just _give_ them to one or more players (and if it isn't all players, prepare for some sulking).

 

I say this because if you look at it the other way around, what are you getting for that point?  I mean, what are you getting that Joe Average doesn't have just for being a reasonably productive member of society?  How badly will it break your game if someone _does_ have these things?  The best one up there, I think, is probably the legal right to drive a car with a mask on, but that's just not really a huge deal, at least in my games.

 

 

 

So...  you know....   One point means you have a separate, legally-recognized personhood for your costumed alter-ego.  And why shouldn't you?  Your business probably has one already.

 

 

[greysword]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

I'm gonna level with ya:

 

I'm pretty much like GB(i): I assume that everyone can have whatever credentials / permissions / papers come with being a citizen of where they're from. ..

 

Anyway, the only place I even _consider_ it might be appropriate to charge a single point is if the _costumed identity_ has these privileges, and even then, I don't see any need to break it down more than "Citizenship: 1pt."   Well, maybe you could put Zero Endurance on your citizenship, but that seems a little much...

 

I say this because if you look at it the other way around, what are you getting for that point?  I mean, what are you getting the Joe Average doesn't have just for being a reasonably productive member of society?  How badly will it break your game if someone _does_ have these things?  The best one up there, I think, is probably the legal right to drive a car with a mask on, but that's just not really a huge deal, at least in my games.

 

 

 

Excellent points and I think the answers received make sense.  The character should get all of these credentials free just for being a citizen, especially in their civilian identity.  I'm sure the DMV and Federal government has procedures by now that allow a masked person to get a drivers license or passport. 

 

The question to ask is what do they get for that spent point?  Maybe for a DL, the character has passed a tactical driving course and has special privileges to drive fast and run red lights when acting in the public interest.  For passports, maybe the character can forgo entering a port of entry, and instead log in their travels online within 48 hours of the travel (one of our GM's [the player for the character in the example] came up with that).  Maybe for a professional license, it comes with access to the law/medical library, access to judges/other attorneys/medical professionals as an 8- contact or influences skill rolls, or access to certain databases.  Does this sound reasonable or is this still a bit too much for 1 CP?

[Spence]

For me there are only two reasons that someone pay points for fringe benefits.

 

If I the GM require it, then it is something that will be actively needed in the game.

If the player wants to buy it, then it is something that they want to be actively needed in the game. 

 

For instance if the game takes place in 1960's Berlin, then papers are a requirement.

If the player takes a Passport or License on their own, they are telling me that they want a game where those items are needed. 

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

On January 28, 2020 at 9:52 PM, greysword said:

 

Excellent points and I think the answers received make sense.  The character should get all of these credentials free just for being a citizen, especially in their civilian identity.  I'm sure the DMV and Federal government has procedures by now that allow a masked person to get a drivers license or passport. 

 

The question to ask is what do they get for that spent point?  Maybe for a DL, the character has passed a tactical driving course and has special privileges to drive fast and run red lights when acting in the public interest.  For passports, maybe the character can forgo entering a port of entry, and instead log in their travels online within 48 hours of the travel (one of our GM's [the player for the character in the example] came up with that).  Maybe for a professional license, it comes with access to the law/medical library, access to judges/other attorneys/medical professionals as an 8- contact or influences skill rolls, or access to certain databases.  Does this sound reasonable or is this still a bit too much for 1 CP?

 

If you'll allow it, I'm going to need to sort of re-arrange the answers and bundle them up a bit.  My apologies, but the answers are so closely related as to nearly duplicate themselves in places.

 

What does a character get for that spent point?

 

To be fair, recall that I said "might consider" charging a single point for the "bundle o' citizenship."  As a general rule, I don't.  I didn't read a lot of comics growing up, before, during or after.  I read a few, here and there, as friends had them or players deposited them around my house, but not much.  One thing that I recall, though, was that super teams-- at least, those with global reputations, could move about pretty much freely: they'd just jump into the team jet and a panel later they are talking to the police commissioner of Zambia, in his office, about the super-criminal hiding out in the whatever Zambia has to hide out in.  No one even _considered_ asking for their names or passports, or whatever.  A few panels later, and they've split into teams-- one group searching the sketchy parts of town while the other part has rented a car and gone to look out into the rest of the land.  Passports?  Driver's licenses?  Real names?  It just didn't freakin' come up.  Now maybe it does in comics today; I don't know.  I _do_ know that comics of today _suck_, and that's because they're the soap operas we were avoiding by reading comics, and filled with pages and pages of introspection, arguing, distrust, and getting your passports stamped.  Readers just eat that stuff up, I guess.  People complaining about the horrible dialogue in the Flash TV show?  Read a modern comic.  It's so authentic it's kind of spooky.....

 

 

Anyway-- my personal thought is that it doesn't, as a general rule, come up because over-all it adds _nothing_ to the story.  Nada.  bumpkiss.  In fact, I personally think it would seriously _detract_ from the story.  I want to play (or run) an adventurer, a hero, a two-fisted knight of justice.  I don't want to role play luggage claim at the airport or reading projections for social security or remembering the due dates on my library books  (except as a minor, trivial diversion for humor or plot-hooking, of course).

 

Just assuming everyone has it (or doesn't need it) doesn't detract from your story: it helps keep it on track and avoids the bogging down that this reply is moving dangerously close to.      The airport or the DMV or whatever-- that's a _setting_ where story and conversation can occur, but its entirely acceptable to just _assume_ that all the standing in line and getting things stamped have already happened or are happening in the background.  Take a survey of your players, of course; they need to be on the same page you are.  Still, I'm willing to bet if you asked them if they felt that roleplaying talking your way out of a seatbelt ticket (you know-- my power armor's so bulky or whatever) or replacing yet lost Social Security card or whatever sounds _really exciting_ and seems to be just the kick your story needs, the answer is probably something along the lines of "if you have any of that left, I'd like a hit, too."  

 

Anyway-- what does he get for that point?  As far as I'm concerned, kinda screwed out of a point, _but_----  there are tiny little things you can add here and there for the guy who spent that one point when no one else did:

 

Maybe he _has_ to drive the team bus, because Razor Hawk has a license to drive as Razor Hawk instead of Timmothy Blaine.  Maybe he's the only one from whom the police will take a statement for the same reason, or perhaps the only one who won't be told "you can't testify because you have to give your real name and show your face, and since you were wearing a mask at the time, we can't prove it was really you in the first place."  Need to rent a vehicle?  No problem: Cheetah Man has Cheetah Man's driver's license and credit card.  Mark Parson's gonna have to provide Mark Parson's ID and use Mark Paron's credit card, and you can bet that knowing that Firefight is really Mark Parson is the sort of information that will spread fast-- or at least threaten to do so.  Let's not forget, no one gets police powers or other perks without actually being a real person.  So....  well, you know....  if you insist on it as the GM, then buying that costumed personhood might be a prerequisite to certain Perks (which I'm a bit opposed to doing, honestly: you've just raised the cost of certain Perks.  If that's your goal, just do that).

 

It's all tiny, inconsequential stuff, and in complete honesty, I'm perfectly happy letting a player decide if he is a legally-recognized person in costume or if he is not, but-- and this is a _big_ but-- _IF_ a player specifies that he wants to pay a single point to buy that personhood-- or perhaps you have decided to assume that's it's just free stuff for this campaign, and he wants to buy it for a _second_ or _third_ country-- or maybe you can spend that point to be a global person, ala Superman or whoever in Marvel has that kind of world-wide clout  (notice I didn't say "Reputation;" that's a different thing)---

 

if you have a guy who wants to go out of his way to buy it and someone else doesn't-- well, you've got to come up with some way it advantages him above the other players.  However, if you go with the suggestion, you've only got to give him a single point's worth of advantage.  That's not terribly hard-- I did it three times two paragraphs ago.  I'll even go you one more--

 

suppose his secret ID has some truly amazing professional skills-- he's the only surgeon in the world who has perfected the procedure for repairing a kidney or removing tonsils rectally or whatever--- perhaps that one point can include similar things for the costumed persona as well:  "You'll be okay, Jeff!  Doctor Speedster is here!"  And of course, 

Doc Speed could transport a critical patient to a hospital in the blink of an eye and yell "I need this man prepped for surgery!" and he would have access to the OR, etc.

 

 

Just thoughts, but only if you really want to charge for this sort of thing.

 

[greysword]

Thanks Spence and Duke.  I agree with your points. 

 

In our games, normally we hand wave the need for any documents that don't pertain specifically to the story.  This includes the mundane stuff we can get as citizens of the world (DL, passports, etc).  Thus, I completely agree that a player should not be compelled to spend points on these items, regardless of whether they are in civilian or hero identity.  Many times, heroes will have this paperwork in their civilian identity, but not their superhero identity.  However, governments tend to "make exceptions" (as was mentioned before) to their heroes (I don't think Batman actually had a DL and the Batmobile wasn't likely registered, at least until he was good with the police).

 

That said, it sounds like if a player does spend a character point for these documents, it means they want them to be relevant, in some way.  The trick is how to make them relevant. 

 

This is where I'm bad at GMing in the Champions universe.  I have a difficult time discerning the magnitude of "free" or "common" items and knowledge versus the same thing that is paid for points. 

 

Thank you everyone for your input, and I hope this helps future GMs looking for an answer to the same problem.

 

In summary (TL;DR), credentialing (like driver's licenses, passports, professional licenses, etc) should not cost any character points.  However if a player decides to spend a CP on such items, it's an indication that the player wants it to be relevant in some way and give them an edge over their fellow players.  Thus, it is incumbent on the GM to do something in game that allows that sacrifice in points to mean something. 

 

Thanks again!

 

 - Chris B.

Edited January 29, 2020 by greysword
Edited to remove the rambling complaint paragraph

[Duke Bushido]

Well, Sir, you have two methids of making your player's choice of spending that point a good thing.  One is to toss a little benefit here and there narratively: the company that insures the team vehicle--it can be insured, now that there is a "real person" who can sign documents-- wants the hero for a spokesperson.   Authorities are more likely to give credence to the Hero's word, since he's all above-board.  Things like that. 

 

Alternatively, you just _preiodically_ create a related nuisance for players who didn't.  No; it's not unfair: if you are allowing your player to spend that point, you are in fact allowing him to create a part of the way your world works-

 

I'm going to repeat that, because there is a maddening tendency with HERO fans to assume that since it _can_ be built with points, then it _must_ be built with points, and it's a terrifying quagmire of craziness after that, as the regression never stops..... 

 

If you are allowing a player to buy a construct--any construct--you have voluntarily allowed that player to define at least a part of how your world works.  

 

Personally, it doesn't bother me a lot, because sometimes I find myself wishing I had thought of it myself, and (I don't know if you've encountered any of my tirades on "cannon" as it relates to fiction, but that's not necessary) I have absolutey _no_ problem taking a mulligan four sessions into a campaign if something just isn't working. 

 

As to the fairness: once you have allowed it, remember that everyone has the opportunity to do the same, should they perceive themselves as somehow getting the short straws.

 

 

[Lucius]

On 1/27/2020 at 11:06 PM, greysword said:

Hi Everyone,

 

I have a question about when a player should be made to purchase a credential as a Fringe Benefit and when it should just be a "free" item.

 

.

 

A driver's license is of course free. All you have to do is pass the tests. Which means a blind character for example would not have one.

 

On 1/27/2020 at 11:06 PM, greysword said:

How do you differentiate the situations that govern the two costs (free vs CP)?

 

I charge for followers, for vehicles and bases, and sometimes for contacts, sometimes for anonymity or money or access. But mostly I don't charge for perks. I view them as an unnecessary point sink.

 

On 1/27/2020 at 11:06 PM, greysword said:

 

For international travel, do you make the character purchase the Passport fringe benefit if they want to fly to Europe from the US? 

 

No.

 

On 1/27/2020 at 11:06 PM, greysword said:

 

How about China?  If purchased with Character Points, does the Passport benefit include the Visa requirement, as well as having a passport?  If a super flies to Rio De Janeiro via commercial airline in their civilian ID, would they get a free passport, but if they flew into the city using Flight or Teleport,

would they need to buy the Passport perk?

 

No. Wouldn't be purchased for points. Heroic or mundane ID, no difference.

 

On 1/27/2020 at 11:06 PM, greysword said:

 

Does a character need to buy a Professional License (doctor, lawyer, stock broker, PI, etc) using character points if they have the Professional Skill(s) and a history in their background? 

 

No.

 

On 1/27/2020 at 11:06 PM, greysword said:

 

If they do purchase the license but not any professional or knowledge skills, does this allow them to make skill rolls in that profession?

 

If they purchase the license they get to take a refund of points.

 

On 1/27/2020 at 11:06 PM, greysword said:

If not, how could they pass the bar/medical board if they didn't have the skill/knowledge?

 

They couldn't, which highlights the absurdity of the whole premise of charging points for a freakin' license to do what your Skills and background already say you can do.  Or in this case, say you can't do.

 

On 1/27/2020 at 11:06 PM, greysword said:

 

In short, what does a character get when they spend 1 CP for a drivers license, passport, or license to practice a profession?  When do you give a credential fringe benefit for "free" (everyman) opposed to requiring the player to spend a CP?

 

Thanks for your help!

 

What they get from me is a refund. If you have the Professional Skill, you can practice the profession.

 

Lucius Alexaner

 

And an unlicensed palindromedary

[Ninja-Bear]

Ok I keep seeing this phrase “if a player buys this that tells me as a GM....”.  That’s all well and good IF you have this understanding between you and the GM. I’m with the philosophy of (if you have enough points) to buy stuff that fleshes out a character and stuff that he “should” have. However I don’t actively think “oh I bought Thunderstorm detect storms (as color) I expect to come up.” I’ve bought for my martial artist Body only vs Disable element once. I knew that that would probably never come into play but I thought it was a neat ability to distinguish him.  So how many of you guys actually have this agreement or is it just an assumption?

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

27 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Ok I keep seeing this phrase “if a player buys this that tells me as a GM....”.  That’s all well and good IF you have this understanding between you and the GM. I’m with the philosophy of (if you have enough points) to buy stuff that fleshes out a character and stuff that he “should” have. However I don’t actively think “oh I bought Thunderstorm detect storms (as color) I expect to come up.” I’ve bought for my martial artist Body only vs Disable element once. I knew that that would probably never come into play but I thought it was a neat ability to distinguish him.  So how many of you guys actually have this agreement or is it just an assumption?

It's a very particular philosophy that I don't personally agree with, partly because of what you said and partly because my group includes a bunch of people who lean heavily on prefabs or "Here's my concept, can you make this character for me?". 

[Ninja-Bear]

6 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

It's a very particular philosophy that I don't personally agree with, partly because of what you said and partly because my group includes a bunch of people who lean heavily on prefabs or "Here's my concept, can you make this character for me?". 

Not a problem. I’m just saying that what ever your philosophy and groups too. You should be in the same page.

 

Btw because some of the people with is very much last minute bring something, I’ve also looked at making my characters as FM easy as possible. Backgrounds? What works for you GM? Again with builds if it’s common there is usually no question but if I think of something (or seen something) that’s not common I may go for it but with the expectation that I might not be able to use it.

[Lee]

14 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Alternatively, you just _preiodically_ create a related nuisance for players who didn't.  No; it's not unfair: if you are allowing your player to spend that point, you are in fact allowing him to create a part of the way your world works-

 

This. But as an additional alternative, how about making all the mundane documents free (as already stated) but offering a complication (a small one) for those who don't? You can save points by not taking the "freebies" but you are likely to "pay" for it during your adventures.

[Duke Bushido]

Works just as well, but again: if I were to do it in my games, it would. Be worth a point.  At least, not in my supers games.  They're always metropolitan, and not having a license or passport or library card-- and in a fictional story with a start, middle, and end, not having a Social Security card, etc-- just isn't that disadvantaging.

 

I dont do it either way: if you want it, you've got it.  I won't rehash the details as they are all above.  At the end of the day, I don't want my supers games to work that way, so it's a non-issue. 

 

And Ninja-bear:  I'm with you.  I don't get the "what I am hearing" angle, either.  Unless the disadvantage in question is something I am willing to do the work for or am willing to let that part of my world "work as you dictate," you'll need to pick something else to get those points. 

 

 

I go a long way out of my way to accommodate my players, but the word "no" exists.  Sometimes you need to use it. 

[dsatow]

I'm of the philosophy, the player can spend points where they like for whatever reason they like as long as it doesn't unbalance the game or concept.  Whether it makes it into play is another matter.  Just because you have a license to fly Battlestars and Vipers, doesn't mean there will be a Battlestar or Viper to fly.

[Vanguard]

On 1/29/2020 at 1:49 PM, greysword said:

That said, it sounds like if a player does spend a character point for these documents, it means they want them to be relevant, in some way.  The trick is how to make them relevant. 

 

Not necessarily.

 

A player may purchase a fringe bene with no thoughts of it being relevant to the game.  They're doing to just to round out and complete their character.  I've done that and my wife has too.  I know that those points I'm putting in X aren't going to be used but it's something the character should have so it goes on the character sheet.

[Duke Bushido]

18 minutes ago, dsatow said:

I'm of the philosophy, the player can spend points where they like for whatever reason they like as long as it doesn't unbalance the game or concept.  Whether it makes it into play is another matter.  Just because you have a license to fly Battlestars and Vipers, doesn't mean there will be a Battlestar or Viper to fly.

 

Pretty much dead-on how we do it.  It works well for us, though, as we don't _usually_ do what other folks would call a "campaign;" the last few years, we're lucky if we can get five sessions out of a single story-- concessions for timing, etc.  We do _lots_ of one- and two-parters, and we see characters being reused and cycled through with regularity.  I also tend to cue my stories based on what the players seized on: if something seemed to really get them going, I'll ditch the entire plan in heartbeat and pursue whatever it is that's tickling their fancy.  Smoothly, of course: I'm not going to do the big "Oh, so...  you guys would rather tinker with the light switch than roast the butterflies I laid out for you?" speech.  Let it feel like this was where it was going all along.  

 

No; it's not a nursemaid thing: I have a story I would _like_ to go with, and I nudge here and there, but if no one bites, then drop it and see what it is they _are_ keying on.  Work with that.  Keep the story in mind; you may be able to combine the two and tell your story yet.   .  

 

So with us, it's potentially more likely that your Battlestar my actually happen.     But if it doesn't, well...  it doesn't.  It still means something to your expositional tales, right?

 

You remind me of something else that was foreign to me before coming to the boards: I think I first encountered this on Red October:

The concept of a "points sink."     "Well, END is always a handy points sink."   "Dump that last one into PD; Defenses are the best points sinks."  "COM was nothing but a points sink anyway."    Seriously:  just like the "if the players writes it down, that tells me what the story must include" thing, the idea of a "points sink" was completely alien to me.  The idea that you _must_ spend all the points you are allocated was completely foreign to me.  Apparently "No; I'm good here.  I'll just save them until I've got some XP to throw in the pot and maybe there's something I'd like to have later" was akin to having a third head.  :-/

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

My psy lim is that I agree totally with free stuff like Lucius idea of license cause you bought the skill however in practice I hear “spend the points. You get what you paid for!” So all my martial artists have perk: black belt and is: specific style when in reality it never comes up and I think should be then given as free.

[Duke Bushido]

45 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

My psy lim is that I agree totally with free stuff like Lucius idea of license cause you bought the skill however in practice I hear “spend the points. You get what you paid for!” So all my martial artists have perk: black belt and is: specific style when in reality it never comes up and I think should be then given as free.

 

 

This is the slippery slope that results in my cyclical occupation of the board....

 

More than anywhere else I've ever talked Champions, this board exudes the most pressure toward "if it can be built with points, it _must_ be built with points."  It took a long time to realize that this probably isn't intentional: I expect it's the end result of years of either being asked _how_ to build something for points, or from the habit of recreationally building things for points.  Either way, when it starts affecting how I play, I disappear for a couple of years.

 

It helps.

 

 

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

55 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

My psy lim is that I agree totally with free stuff like Lucius idea of license cause you bought the skill however in practice I hear “spend the points. You get what you paid for!” So all my martial artists have perk: black belt and is: specific style when in reality it never comes up and I think should be then given as free.

The logical followup to "You get what you paid for!" is "You don't pay for what you're not getting".  If Perk: Black Belt isn't coming up, I'd personally ask the GM if they could push it into the spotlight a bit or cut me a price break.  The GMs in my area are pretty agreeable about this. 

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

The logical followup to "You get what you paid for!" is "You don't pay for what you're not getting".  If Perk: Black Belt isn't coming up, I'd personally ask the GM if they could push it into the spotlight a bit or cut me a price break.  The GMs in my area are pretty agreeable about this. 

Like I said I’m agreeable with it too! Just when I make my own characters 😂.