SCUBA Hero

Gotta love that Bill Willingham art! 👍

It was in the 3E book Atlas Unleashed.  I'm hoping someone might have fleshed it out from the description given.  We were given a swank hotel, a fine art museum, a power company, an overcrowded freeway system, a harbor, a bay, a factory-lined channel (which may lead from the harbor to the bay), an air force base outside of town, and a nearby NASA telemetry station.

I believe there was a movie based on that concept. Some prisoner brought to an jungle island where a gamer controlled his actions so he could fight others like him.

Look at Mighty Protectors (V&V 3.0).  It's a D20 based system with a point-buy system and consistent mechanics.  I think it works quite well for super heroes.  I *prefer* Champions, but there's nothing fundamentally wrong with MP.  I ran a one-off for my (Hero System) gaming group - a golden age simple scenario and combat.  They liked it okay, but prefer Champions.

Also, the various Sorcery variants in my urban fantasy setting Here There Be Monsters work somewhat as described. Invokers and the custom Invocation power are particularly close thematically (as I mentioned yesterday in the replies to the corresponding facebook post). Meanwhile, Necromantists, Daemonologists, and Elementalists use a variety of Followers, the Summon power, and various skills for some of their magic. 
 
Separate subject, a long time ago I threw a "fun" character up on these boards as an example for some other poster, to demonstrate a "summoner" whose powers were all various slots in a couple of MP's with a SFX of summoning things but no actual usage of the Summon power. There's a copy still laying around on my web server here: Mythic. A great benefit of the Hero System is that one can handle quite a lot of thematic woo woo simply with creative use of SFX.
 
Make of it what you will...
 

I've said this before and I stand behind it; character creation is complex, the actual play of the game is not.  As evidence, look at Champions Complete - the character creation rules are 118 pages, the combat rules are only 18 pages!  Okay, that's not entirely fair, as Actions and some other items are not in the combat section, but still!
 
Tangent:  Mighty Protectors (V&V 3.0) unified a lot of the mechanics and put in a point-based character creation system.  It's a lot less charty, and a lot more like Hero System.
 
 
After thinking about it some more, I think having a stripped down location (Millenium City?  San Angelo?) is a good idea - new player, you like this city?  There's an entire existing book dedicated to it!
 
 
I went back to Champions Complete and looked at the 6E Champions.  Only Kinetic has Powers with more than two Modifiers:  Super-Running (Megascale, Reduced Endurance, Only In Contact With A Surface) and Supersonic Finger-Snap (NND, No Range, Gestures).  Defender doesn't have any Powers without Modifiers, but his whole thing is that he's Iron Man a power armor hero and thus bought through OIF.
 
New thought:  maybe have two character sheets, build and play.  You don't need the points displayed on the playing sheet.  That saves a bunch of space.  When I run convention games, I have character sheets that state what the game effects are (example:  in a Pulp Hero scenario [Nazi Death Zombies of the Congo!, available on *this very website*!] the Great White Hunter character has an elephant rifle.  Player doesn't care about the build (or if he/she does, I have the build sheet available and can share it), player cares about, "Good range.  Hits *really* hard.  Has two shots.  Takes time to reload, so make those two shots count."
 
 
Yes, make it easy.  Champions Skills - Defender looks overly complicated to my eyes.  Sapphire and Kinetic could be simpler.
 
 
Good ideas here!
 
 
The entire purpose of this proposed product is to bring in new players.  Lower the barrier to entry.  How do we craft a product that does this?
 
 
I think "like a very meticulous tax audit" is an invalid criticism (however, it *is* a criticism and does need to be addressed).  I do agree that combat can and does take a long time; my group has had a combat or two where even we (who do enjoy both the system and superhero combat in general) were dragging.  But the actual play - "Okay Diamondback it's your turn." "I jump on the giant ape and punch it!"  "Okay it's the giant tiger's turn.  It swipes at Professor Polar."  The combat system *is* detailed (and IMO, simulates comic book battles very well) and I don't think that can be fundamentally changed without being not-the-Hero-System.  Some folks want less crunch, and Hero System will not appeal to them.  There are, of course, options to make combat more or less crunchy and these options are already discussed in existing books.
 
 
Lower the barrier to entry for new players.  Get new players in Hero System.  Live Long And Prosper.  I think a book that sets all of the toolkit options to a certain Supers genre and provides a setting and campaign will help do that.
 
Again, character creation is the most complex part of Hero System.  DND - make a first level character.  Okay, I either roll or point-buy my stats (depending on the DM), allot skill points, select feats, spend money on equipment, a bit of background... ready to go!  Level up?  Roll for hit points, allot new skill points,  new Feat (at certain levels), stat increase (at certain levels), maybe a new level-based ability... done!  Hero - I have these XPs, what to spend them on??? It's so open-ended.  For example, in our current Golden Age campaign my Speedster wanted to buy a Power straight out of The Ultimate Speedster - "Cant Hold Me!" - additional Strength only for resisting Grabs and Entangles.  The experienced GM looked at it and said, "Okay, but only +40 STR instead of +50 STR, as that is in line with the campaign power levels."   But how does a novice (to Hero System) GM know that?  Make the campaign power levels explicit.  Discuss them more than is currently done - "8D6 is agent-level, not too concerning to the Heros unless in large groups, 10D6 is under-powered but will do some STUN, 12D6 is average, 15D6 is a powerful attack that will Stun and possibly KO with one hit."  Delve into the math (which 6E1 and 6E2 already do to some extent, and it goes back to early editions - I don't have the books available right now to point out examples.  Talk about averages and standard deviations (although probably not actually using the term 'standard deviations').
 
I'm not saying make it as on-rails as DND progression.  But *make it easy* for the new GM.
 

Yes, it's a really difficult time for the massage parlour industry.
 
Maybe they should branch out into RPG streaming.

My gaming group played a Mythic Greece Hero campaign.  Very flavorful, different from 'generic' fantasy. 👍

Calling Wil Wheaton! 😁

Well, it's not part of the DND franchise.  But it does use D20 for both combat and skills, so I consider it a D20 system.  Palladium uses D20 for combat and D100 for skills, so I consider it to be a 'modified D20' system.

PS238 is great as a one-book playable supers game using Hero System.
Lucha Libre is great as a one-book playable wrestling game using Hero System.
 
However, both of those have limited appeal.
 
Widening Gyre is great as a one-book playable steampunk game using Hero System.
Narosia is great as a one-book playable fantasy game using Hero System.
Western Hero is great as a one-book playable western game using Hero System.
 
I'm not sure how well the first two have sold; Western Hero (from what I know) is selling well enough to justify the project.
 
Traveller Hero is great as a two-book playable Traveller skin using Hero System.
 
I don't know how well it sold, or if its demise was related to sales or royalty payments or IP/licensing concerns.
 
Supers have a broad appeal.  I'm trying to tap into that as the easiest/best way for Hero System to continue as a viable business (and yes, also because I like supers 😊 ).

Killer Shrike has several magic systems presented on his website, including eight Skill based systems.
 
Magic Systems (killershrike.com)
 
 

PS238 is great as a one-book playable supers game using Hero System.
Lucha Libre is great as a one-book playable wrestling game using Hero System.
 
However, both of those have limited appeal.
 
Widening Gyre is great as a one-book playable steampunk game using Hero System.
Narosia is great as a one-book playable fantasy game using Hero System.
Western Hero is great as a one-book playable western game using Hero System.
 
I'm not sure how well the first two have sold; Western Hero (from what I know) is selling well enough to justify the project.
 
Traveller Hero is great as a two-book playable Traveller skin using Hero System.
 
I don't know how well it sold, or if its demise was related to sales or royalty payments or IP/licensing concerns.
 
Supers have a broad appeal.  I'm trying to tap into that as the easiest/best way for Hero System to continue as a viable business (and yes, also because I like supers 😊 ).

I don't think we need to roll adventures into the main campaign book.
 
If you look at D&D, the king of RPGs and the thing that sets expectations for many newer gamers you have books for rules & character creation, a DM book, books of monsters, and adventures.  The Adventures require that you own the core rules, refers to stuff in the DM book & character creation book & the monster book and include writeups for any new monsters or items that are added.
 
I think it's fine to use Champions Complete to lay out the rules & basics of the Supers Genre, then have adventures that say "requires Champions Complete and Enemies Books 1 & 3", then dive into the adventure.  If you want to roll the whole thing into a super product you can.. but why reinvent the wheel?  

When I started my Ravenswood game I heavily cribbed from the recommended guidelines in Teen Champions and gave all my players this:
 
Teen Superhero
Base Points 300
Matching Complications: 60
In this Game all characters should take Social Complication: Secret Identity with values depending on who would care (Frequent/Major is the common value)
Everyone effectively has Social Limit: Minor, Under age 16 but gets no points for it (it’s a campaign standard)
 
Teen Characters should have:
Characteristics    10-30 average, exceptions if that high stat *is* your power.
Spd    4-7 (5 is average)
Combat Value    4-8
Standard Damage    6-14 DC (8 DC standard, anything over 10 DC should be a "special" that has barriers to use)
Active Points    40-60
Typical Skill Rolls    8-12
Def/rDef    10-18/4-8
 
Most characters should have 1 "main" power with any other powers being related.  The Main power should have a minimum of -1 in limits associated with it, at least for any power at or above 40 Active Points
Most characters should be capable of a main attack in the 7-8 DC range
In some cases a particular power that is unreliable or dangerous can go as high as 14 DC
Skill levels (combat or otherwise) require special character concepts
Teen Heroes do not get TF: Common Ground Vehicles or PS: Hobby as everyman skills but may buy them normally if their concept permits

Otherwise Teen Hero Everyman Skills are as follows:
Acting 8-
AK: Home Area 8-
Climbing 8-
Concealment 8-
Conversation 8-
Deduction 8-
Language: Native Idiomatic, Everyman, Literate
Persuasion 8-
Shadowing 8-
Stealth 8-
 
The Power skill represents a familiarity with the characters power that is usually not appropriate for Teen characters
 
In my mind, a discussion of this sort of Campaign Guidelines should be in the core rules and specific versions of it should be at the front of any setting. 
 
There should be a set of guidelines like this for the Champions Universe "default" of PCs living on Earth and dealing with Viper, baddies from the Enemies books, etc and any adventures that come out for the system that use "Champions" as the defaults need to be built around those guidelines.  (As opposed to "Dark Champions, Cosmic Champion, etc, that would also have sets of guidelines and might appear as the default on other adventures)
 
I know there sort of are guidelines like this now but they aren't explicit enough IMHO and way too many sample characters and "basic" supervillians ignore them
 

The correct answer, of course:
 
"It's a male mentalist!"
 
"Wait!  he was a she last time!"
 
"A very powerful mentalist."
 
"But last time--"
 
"See what I mean?"
 
 

Look at Mighty Protectors (V&V 3.0).  It's a D20 based system with a point-buy system and consistent mechanics.  I think it works quite well for super heroes.  I *prefer* Champions, but there's nothing fundamentally wrong with MP.  I ran a one-off for my (Hero System) gaming group - a golden age simple scenario and combat.  They liked it okay, but prefer Champions.

Index ---

Okay, I've been following both this thread and the To-Hit thread, rolled it around in my head for a while, and I'm throwing this out there:  Several folks think (and I agree) that a single book that has a playable superhero game, rather than a toolkit to make a game, would sell and bring new players.
 
Existing examples of single book Hero games:
Lucha Libre Hero Narosia PS238 Traveller Hero Western Hero Widening Gyre I propose we test letting other people put their money where we think they would...
 
As a *very rough* first draft:
 
Product: Four-Color Champions (working title).
 
Purpose: Bring new players into Champions. Hopefully get them interested in broader Hero System products.
 
Method: A single book, BBB sized or smaller, that contains rules needed for Champions ("Powered by Hero System!"), plus tips on how to play, power levels, a sample hero team and villains, including an organization (Viper?) and master villain (Dr. Destroyer? Mechanon? New?), a city setting developed enough to start a campaign (either Millenium City or a new [to Hero] city), and a ready to run scenario that launches the players and GM into that city. Brief info on the world. Concentrate on four-color, MCU-style power levels and play style in a present-day world setting, don't try to cover everything.  The MCU movies are very popular, try to pick up on that wave of interest.
 
Funding: Kickstarter. Start with a nice color cover and minimal B&W interior artwork; stretch goals would add more artwork and then upgrade it to color. Mention (and have) plans for future supplements: more linked adventures, a city development book; also to use Kickstarter.  Maybe have a second adventure, linked to the first, at a high enough stretch goal to fund it.
 
Staff:  Writer. Editor. Proof-reader. Artist(s). Project coordinator.  There are several pro-level, accomplished Hero authors.  Christopher Taylor is concentrating on his fantasy setting and I respect that.  Derek Hiemforth.  Shadowcat.  I am neither a writer nor an editor, but I can proof-read and coordinate.
 
This project requires Hero Games buy-in and approval. Possibly re-use and modify text from Champions Complete and other previous Champions products.
 
What does Herodom Assembled think?

Luche Libre Hero for the win! 😀

That's a crucial decision.  Do you use an established setting (Millenium City) to point folks to existing product, or do you strike out on a new path?  I'm not sure which is the best option.  What brings in the most sales???
 
Keep skills light.  In 1E Champions there are only 14 Skills (some of which are now Powers).  Memory says that Steve Long in these forums once said, 'At the highest level, there are really only two skills: Know Stuff and Do Stuff.  Everything else is specialization.'
 
In a supers game, skill minutiae are not important.  I crib from V&V 3.0 - you have two Backgrounds which give you the needed skills.  Either two different ones (I would give 2 at 11-) or one specialized (I would give 14-).

I agree, Duke.  Try to do one thing well.  Leave the toolkit and Hero-can-do-anything (which are both big selling points to me, but I get that's not a big draw for new players now - heck, *I* probably wouldn't pick up Hero if my first exposure was to 6E1 and 6E2, and Hero is my favorite RPG) for later.  Hey you - you want to play an Iron Man / Thor / Hulk / Hawkeye/Black Widow clone homage?  Here it is, in one book!  And if it sells, a whole universe of supplemental material.  Classic Battletech, right?  Basic explanation of the major powers in the first book, and everyone expects a book to detail each power (assuming they keep selling).

I like spicy settings.  Partially because (like Duke Bushido) I read them for entertainment, and also because I'm always looking for ideas to rip off use in other games, and because I like having a lot of details already spelled out.
 
Hey, I ran a Harn campaign for my gaming group, which was well received.  (Classic moment:  the party had picked up a cat [that was supposed to be a throw-away encounter] and kind of made it their mascot, calling it 'Shadow', so I ran with it.  The cat was injured in an encounter, and the PCs had to travel hard and fast to another place to warn the inhabitants of danger.  So I told the group, "Okay, but if you ride that hard, I'll need to make rolls for the cat - and if there's a failed roll, Shadow dies."  Player immediately drops out of character, points a finger at me and says, "Don't you DARE kill Shadow!!").
 
Given the opportunity, I'd like to run a Harn Hero campaign.  Don't know if it will ever happen, but if it does the story arc will include elements from canon that have enough ambiguity/mystery that I can build my own creation in the existing world.  And Harn is an *incredibly* detailed world.  And I can fall back on canon if (when!) needed.

I like spicy settings.  Partially because (like Duke Bushido) I read them for entertainment, and also because I'm always looking for ideas to rip off use in other games, and because I like having a lot of details already spelled out.
 
Hey, I ran a Harn campaign for my gaming group, which was well received.  (Classic moment:  the party had picked up a cat [that was supposed to be a throw-away encounter] and kind of made it their mascot, calling it 'Shadow', so I ran with it.  The cat was injured in an encounter, and the PCs had to travel hard and fast to another place to warn the inhabitants of danger.  So I told the group, "Okay, but if you ride that hard, I'll need to make rolls for the cat - and if there's a failed roll, Shadow dies."  Player immediately drops out of character, points a finger at me and says, "Don't you DARE kill Shadow!!").
 
Given the opportunity, I'd like to run a Harn Hero campaign.  Don't know if it will ever happen, but if it does the story arc will include elements from canon that have enough ambiguity/mystery that I can build my own creation in the existing world.  And Harn is an *incredibly* detailed world.  And I can fall back on canon if (when!) needed.

"All of the  powers of Thor, none of the copyright issues."  🤣