Is the D20 system really that incompatible with superhero RPGs?

[fdw3773]

I'm asking this question because my experience with the D20 system is minimal (I briefly owned Silver Age Sentinels D20 but never played it) and never played D&D or Pathfinder. However, I know the basic mechanics involved with that use the D20 to roll for an action's success or failure based on bonuses versus a difficulty rating or opposed roll from reading a rules book or two.

 

There's been published superhero RPGs that use the D20 system (Silver Age Sentinels D20, Vigilance) and the reviews have been mixed. On the positive note, the rules were fairly consistent with the D20 system, but the impression I got was that D20 in the superhero genre has a "square peg/round hole" feeling to it. 

 

I remember way, way, back reading the old Deities & Demigods for D&D (1st Edition) that featured mythical gods (e.g. Zeus, Odin) and epic heroes/demigods (e.g. Heracles, Gilgamesh, Sir Lancelot of the Lake), which really aren't that different from superheroes when you think about it in terms of power levels as depicted in Hero Games' The Olympians published for 4th Edition.

 

If D&D enabled mythical gods slugging it out on the D20 system, could it really be that far-fetched to adapt it for the superhero genre? Or, is the D20 system really that incompatible with superhero RPGs? 🤔

[Tjack]

This is a little like asking if a Porsche can pull a horse trailer.  Because the answer to both is “Yeah.....kinda.” But there’s better and easier ways to do it. 
   D20 was originally built for D&D. (duh) a game that didn’t use or need big power effects.  That’s what is best for. You can find ways to add on big superpowers but it always going to be a little clunky.

  If you wanted to run a NetFlicks type “Defenders” game, you can do it on D20 fairly easily. But for an MCU Avengers style you want something that was created to do just that.  Like maybe Champions?  The best thing I always believed about Champs was that you could play anything with it.  Supers, Sci-Fi, 1930’s Pulp, whatever.  That did lead to the system being a little complex for some folks.

   What I’m trying to say is that you want to use the right tool for the job at hand.  What kind of game are you looking to do, or is this more of a philosophical question?

[SCUBA Hero]

Look at Mighty Protectors (V&V 3.0).  It's a D20 based system with a point-buy system and consistent mechanics.  I think it works quite well for super heroes.  I *prefer* Champions, but there's nothing fundamentally wrong with MP.  I ran a one-off for my (Hero System) gaming group - a golden age simple scenario and combat.  They liked it okay, but prefer Champions.

[fdw3773]

3 hours ago, Tjack said:

 What kind of game are you looking to do, or is this more of a philosophical question?

It was a philosophical question about gaming and using the D20 system. 😉 I run Champions for those who prefer a highly-detailed character and rules system and ICONS for those who prefer a more rules-light approach to superhero gaming and also brand-new players.

2 hours ago, SCUBA Hero said:

Look at Mighty Protectors (V&V 3.0).  It's a D20 based system with a point-buy system and consistent mechanics.  I think it works quite well for super heroes.  I *prefer* Champions, but there's nothing fundamentally wrong with MP.  I ran a one-off for my (Hero System) gaming group - a golden age simple scenario and combat.  They liked it okay, but prefer Champions.

The first superhero RPG I ever bought was Villains & Vigilantes and I have a digital copy of Mighty Protectors, so I'm familiar with that system as well (granted, I never fully considered it a D20 system since it wasn't marketed as such like Silver Age Sentinels D20, Vigilance, or other fantasy supplements like Sword & Sorcery). My preference is also Champions also because of the depth of play available. 😀

 

Thanks!

[Asperion]

D20 was originally created to be a "blank slate". All the core system provides is what a pure string human is like and nothing else.  There is nothing else,  no weapons (determined by genre), powers available,  vehicles used,  and setting involved.  This is why we have so many different variations (fantasy,  scifi, modern,  superhero,  etc). As with any universal system,  they can choose to be generalists (specialty nothing) in which case they spread their abilities so thin that they are weak at everything or maintain a strong core.  Champions has done this latter despite being a universal system,  they work the most on the super side the strongest since that is the core of the system.  D20 has no such core, so they are attempting to make everything their core,  which no one can realistically do. 

[assault]

Mutants and Masterminds seems to have been the market leading superhero RPG for a fair while.

 

While it is a highly modified D20 system, those are still its roots 

[SCUBA Hero]

19 hours ago, fdw3773 said:

The first superhero RPG I ever bought was Villains & Vigilantes and I have a digital copy of Mighty Protectors, so I'm familiar with that system as well (granted, I never fully considered it a D20 system since it wasn't marketed as such like Silver Age Sentinels D20, Vigilance, or other fantasy supplements like Sword & Sorcery). My preference is also Champions also because of the depth of play available. 😀

 

Well, it's not part of the DND franchise.  But it does use D20 for both combat and skills, so I consider it a D20 system.  Palladium uses D20 for combat and D100 for skills, so I consider it to be a 'modified D20' system.

[Hugh Neilson]

On 2/22/2022 at 3:35 PM, assault said:

Mutants and Masterminds seems to have been the market leading superhero RPG for a fair while.

 

While it is a highly modified D20 system, those are still its roots 

 

When I read the first edition M&M, there was a lot of "Hero/Champions" in there.  The removal of hit points in favour of "damage saves" was an inspired mechanical innovation.

[Duke Bushido]

I thought SAS was playable.

 

I played it a couple of times, and I have to say that I liked the d20 version _way_ more than I liked the tri-stat version.  Don't get me wrong: for a quick-and-dirty fast action game, Tri Stat is right up there with the original Traveller engine.  It's just that playing supers with Champions since the early days-- I just found that tri-stat wasn't meaty enough to make me happy.

 

The d20 version was buggy, and there were bits here and there were you just accepted "this is how that works; keep movin'...", it worked perfectly fine for what it was.

 

 

[pinecone]

The thing I liked about SAS D20 was I could port over things like a Lvl 15+ Sorcerer of Wizard from D&D, or Trolls etc... and not have to spend time explaining as most "gamers" know that stuff cold...other wise. D20 works well but breaks down at the high end Even D&D does that at 15+ lvl...

With M&M I was not so much "porting over" but rebuilding, so it was not as easy.

[Spence]

On 2/22/2022 at 2:35 PM, assault said:

Mutants and Masterminds seems to have been the market leading superhero RPG for a fair while.

 

While it is a highly modified D20 system, those are still its roots 

I tried to grok M&M, both versions, but could never get past replacing damage and power effects with "conditions".  A bizzilian possible and sometimes contradictory conditions drove me away.

[Dravencour]

Mutants and Masterminds is probably the D20-based superhero game aside from perhaps Villains and Vigilantes, which has recently reached its third edition.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Mutants and Masterminds has a lot of supporting material and a huge company behind it pushing it into stores, conventions, etc.  Champions has to rely on being a really good game and that's not enough to really get it out there.  The lack of real support material doesn't help (a world setting etc doesn't actually help very much when you sit down at the table, you need real stuff to run and play with).

 

I know that adventures don't sell quite as well as other books, but the perspective has to be more than just "does this make money right now."  A game has no future without content to play, and that small amount of earning from adventures gives your game a future, building players and market share in the long term.

[Spence]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I know that adventures don't sell quite as well as other books,

 

I never thought it was a case of adventures not selling well.  I always thought it was more of what kind of adventures and whether they were actually available.

 

By availability, I mean on the shelf of the FLGS.  You couldn't just go online and order back then.  I have literal STACKS of V&V and Superworld adventures that I would repopulate with Hero stat'd NPCs for Champions.  But beyond a very small handful, Hero adventures did not exist to be bought out in the wild.  And it was near impossible to hear any news about what was available. We played the heck out of the Viper intro adventure and I know my groups played Bloodfury, Demon's Rule and such a lot. Many of the 3rd and 4th ed adventures were not too hard to fit into existing campaigns.  The biggest problem (in my mind) was that most of the post 4th ed Supers adventures were tied too tightly to specific villains and heroes and could be very difficult to work into an existing campaigns.  But I think that is more a "me" issue than an "everybody" issue.

 

But the biggest most telling problem IMO, was once Hero products were actually easily accessible and the non-physical product was viable, they had already closed the door.  Once access was easy there was nothing to buy adventure'wise.  Villainy Amok was one of the most useful products to come out of 5th for a GM IMO.  But it, like Shades of Black arrived late and almost secretly for many of us. 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

It's not that you cannot do Superheroes with a D20, but it would require a new system from scratch, rather than something based on D&D 3.5 mechanics, or even D&D 5e.  The problem is a matter of power scaling which is something that D&D has a design problem with.  D20 though is linear, unlike the Bell curve of Hero system. Any mechanics designed for Superheroes will have4 to account for high power, and wide areas appropriate for superheroes.

[Christopher R Taylor]

The local stores here had Champions adventures but never when I could afford them

[Tjack]

27 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

The local stores here had Champions adventures but never when I could afford them

  
  How about a contest for everybody who isn’t already a Champions contributor on the site.  Submit a nice generic Champions adventure for anywhere from 4-8 players of beginning levels. The senior members will vote on the three best that will be put in the free download section. 
   The winners get bragging rights as they will be an official writer for Champions  New GM’s have some games to start their campaigns on, thus bringing in more players who might hopefully spend some cash on material down the line.

     So in the end all this might put some money in pockets and keep the game alive at the same time.

[Old Man]

7 hours ago, Spence said:

But the biggest most telling problem IMO, was once Hero products were actually easily accessible and the non-physical product was viable, they had already closed the door.  Once access was easy there was nothing to buy adventure'wise.  Villainy Amok was one of the most useful products to come out of 5th for a GM IMO.  But it, like Shades of Black arrived late and almost secretly for many of us. 

 

 

What's Shades of Black?

[Spence]

41 minutes ago, Old Man said:

 

What's Shades of Black?

 A really well done 5th ed adventure. 

 

 

[SCUBA Hero]

16 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

It's not that you cannot do Superheroes with a D20, but it would require a new system from scratch, rather than something based on D&D 3.5 mechanics, or even D&D 5e.  The problem is a matter of power scaling which is something that D&D has a design problem with.  D20 though is linear, unlike the Bell curve of Hero system. Any mechanics designed for Superheroes will have4 to account for high power, and wide areas appropriate for superheroes.

 

Mighty Protectors (Villains & Vigilantes v3.0).

[assault]

On 4/11/2022 at 6:12 AM, Scott Ruggels said:

It's not that you cannot do Superheroes with a D20, but it would require a new system from scratch, rather than something based on D&D 3.5 mechanics, or even D&D 5e.  The problem is a matter of power scaling which is something that D&D has a design problem with.  D20 though is linear, unlike the Bell curve of Hero system. Any mechanics designed for Superheroes will have4 to account for high power, and wide areas appropriate for superheroes.

 

Given that M&M, and other D20 based superhero games, seem to work fine, I suspect this is exaggerated.

D&D has always worked for high power games. The point is that higher level characters don't really hang around with lower level ones (Henchmen, etc, aside). So the discrepancy in power levels within a group is seldom as broad as it notionally could be.

The same applies to Hero though. Characters on similar point totals tend to be of similar levels of power. They don't have to be, but, barring intentional nerfing (whether on the part of the player or the GM), they tend to be.

Of course some tricky design decisions would have to be made. In particular, which characters are included, and which aren't? You could say: "Superman is a very high level character, and thus doesn't need to be able to be rolled up at first level". But what about, say, Supergirl? Is there such a thing as a "First Level Kryptonian"? If so, what are they like? (1938 Superman, maybe?)

Character creation is a big problem, in other words. Forcing characters into a set of character classes, while possible, breaks down around the edges. Eliminating character classes, like Hero, or perhaps more relevantly, Runequest/Basic Roleplaying, is possible, but of course balance becomes something that needs to be laboriously worked out.

I mentioned Basic Roleplaying intentionally, because of Superworld. Steve Perrin acknowledged the heavy influence of Champions on its design, while BRP as a system shows its D&D roots.

If your scope is "everything", then no system will be adequate. Not even Hero. Within a narrower range, a D20 superhero game is perfectly viable. But that's reinventing wheels that have already been invented.

Oh, and check out Darren Watt's Champions LARP game for a cut down Hero-like system that uses a D10. It technically uses a stopwatch to generate a number between 0 and 9, but that's just what a D10 does. Changing it to use a D20 would be a piece of cake.

[DShomshak]

As it happens, one of my friends has been tinkering with his own D20-based superhero game for some time. The playtest we did of the first version was too brief, really, to assess it, but we had a bit of fun. He's been noodling with a revised version based on what was learned, though, and promises that someday we will play it again. I look forward to it, as his previous design experiments have worked well.

 

Dean Shomshak

[assault]

I've tinkered with a D20 based system myself. I took it back to the start of the Golden Age, during the brief moment when superheroes were basically Superman, the Phantom/Batman and Mandrake/Zatara. I would have added a wider range of characters once I had those three balanced.

 

Conveniently, they roughly correspond to Fighter, Rogue and Magic User.

[pinecone]

I just found a new game called "Slugfest" that says it is D20 based. Know anything about it? Oops that is for anyone....It is on Drive through...

[Sketchpad]

On 2/22/2022 at 5:35 PM, assault said:

Mutants and Masterminds seems to have been the market leading superhero RPG for a fair while.

 

While it is a highly modified D20 system, those are still its roots 

 

I would definitely reiterate that Mutants & Masterminds is THE d20 supers game for the most part. There are and has been others, but M&M seems to have some lasting power behind it. That said, a lot of why it's so popular is because it incorporates other games as well. If you look carefully through its three editions, you can see the games it was built upon, including Champions, Villains & Vigilantes, Marvel, and DC Heroes. 

 

On 4/10/2022 at 12:21 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

Mutants and Masterminds has a lot of supporting material and a huge company behind it pushing it into stores, conventions, etc.  Champions has to rely on being a really good game and that's not enough to really get it out there.  The lack of real support material doesn't help (a world setting etc doesn't actually help very much when you sit down at the table, you need real stuff to run and play with).

 

I know that adventures don't sell quite as well as other books, but the perspective has to be more than just "does this make money right now."  A game has no future without content to play, and that small amount of earning from adventures gives your game a future, building players and market share in the long term.

 

I don't know if I'd call Green Ronin a HUGE company. Last I knew, I think there may be eight or ten people really working on things, with the bulk of their employees being freelancers. The thing they know how to do is market their games well (as well as a few other things I've mentioned in a different thread). They have a series of adventures (that will be collected I'm sure), a new book on locations (which was originally PDFs), villain books, etc. Plus they've had a thriving open license for third party publishers to create content.