The Valdorian Age - Good, Bad or Meh?

[assault]

I've been looking at Swords and Sorcery settings.

 

Naturally I included the official Hero setting. It didn't really inspire me.

 

Some of the rules stuff, like the magic system has potential, but the setting itself seems rather blah.

 

What do other people think? Has anyone used it? What changes could be made, or is it better just to ignore it and use something else?

[Mr. R]

From what I read, it is really good for a gritty city based game.  Not Conan in this new spot, more Fafhard and the Grey Mouser in another adventure in Newhon.  All the rest is background to a large city intrigue game!

[Lord Liaden]

My biggest issue with TVA is its focus on the city of Elweir. Not that I object to a detailed city adventure setting -- there's certainly a place for that. But Elweir itself is just so bland. It has no style, no heritage, no vision. At one point in TVA, author Allen Thomas referred to "storied Elweir"... only there are no stories about Elweir. Within the reality of its world, it grew and prospered purely because it was useful. From the metagame perspective, it exists because it's useful to have a large city at an economic and cultural crossroads. But there's nothing that makes Elweir stand out from any other such city in every other such setting. (TBH I feel that same lack of distinctiveness about Aarn, in Hero's Turakian Age setting.)

 

All the emphasis on Elweir detracts from the rest of its world of Il-Ryveras, which is much more colorful and intriguing. The broader world is where we see the book grow beyond Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar/Nehwon, and move more into Robert E. Howard's Hyboria. Il-Ryveras is full of distinctive regions and cultures, hidden or dying non-human races, and ruins housing ancient and terrible secrets. IMHO it would be well suited to a more picaresque campaign of travel and exploration, getting mixed up in local intrigues and conflicts while trying to squeeze as much personal benefit out of the situation as possible.

 

Unfortunately TVA would require significant prep work by a GM to make most of those locations and peoples ready for PCs to romp around in. Elweir squeezes everything else into rather superficial coverage.

[assault]

What do people think about Valdoria itself and Abyz-Nasty land? This was another thing I found it difficult to care about.

[Lord Liaden]

Well, I guess I'm "people," so I'll just keep blathering on.

 

Valdoria and Abyzinia are both rather intriguing to me, in that neither one completely fills either a "good guy" or "bad guy" role in the setting. At first glance Valdoria appears to be the more admirable of the two, in its militant rejection of slavery and of sorcery, two of the pillars on which Abyzinian society is based. However, Valdoria until fairly "recently" (relative to the default setting start date) was aggressively expansionistic, with conquest a literal rite of passage for newly-crowned Emperors; only pausing that due to the decadence of the last few Emperors. That weakness at the top has prompted rivalry and intrigue among the most powerful nobles, which threatens to inflame civil war, likely spilling onto Valdoria's neighbors.

 

OTOH, despite its reliance on slavery and trafficking with demons, Abyzinia is at peace with its neighbors, far more interested in trade than conquest. TVA repeatedly plays up the Abyzinians' elegance and sophistication, the quality of their crafts which fetch high prices around the world, and the striking beauty of their cities partially constructed by magic. Each civilization has qualities to admire and to despise, and for my part I find that more interesting than if they were ethical polar opposites. I wouldn't use them for an epic LOTR-style campaign, but you could craft a long series of adventures dealing with distinctive individuals and local issues across both realms.

 

There are factions that are more unabashedly evil, e.g. the people of Ureth-Kalai who worship Lovecraftian monsters as gods, or the shape-changing reptilian Silyssen who infiltrate human society (another nod to Howard's fiction), but their threat is more subtle than Dark Lords or barbarian hordes.

[assault]

Obviously you are "people", but I want to leave it open for other people as well.

[Duke Bushido]

19 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Well, I guess I'm "people,"

 

Yes, indeed you are!

 

Ever since the Canadian Equality Act of 1913, US citizens have been required to accept that Canadians- and humans in at least four other countries- are, in fact, people.

 

 

 

 

seriously though: you are the best kind of people, Sir: you have read and thoroughly digested the material at hand.

 

 

 

19 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

There are factions that are more unabashedly evil, e.g. the people of Ureth-Kalai 

 

 

I dont think I have ever seen "Uruk-Hai" so thoroughly over-spelled.

 

 

For what it is worth, the setting is bland; there was no exaggeration there.  However, whether or not that is a good thing or a bad thing is entirely up to your preferences.  I rather preferred settings this way, leaving the "stories" of the cities and the legends of the outlying lands up to the GM, to suit his need, but I also recognize that this is not the most common preference, and that none of us have all the tine we would like to devote to background details.

 

Strangely, that is why I prefer to have little complexity or detail: I am free to wing it in the moment and not interfer with something already in place or contradict something an author thought was more critical than do I.

 

LL, as usual, is quite correct: the material inside is as bland and short on detail or excitement as is the cover art and pallet.  However, just like that art, it provides a crisp, clear delineation of the place itself, with just enough details to give you a direction in which to start.

 

To be clear: if I were reading this for entertainment, I would want _so much more_ than what is given, but in terms of what I personally  like in a setting book-  a place,a few people, and little else, this book kind of nailed it.  The exception, foe whatever reason- at least to me- was Tuala Morn.  That is hands-down my favorite HERO setting book, but I went into that one reading it for entertainment, and I have to acknowledge that.    

 

I liked VA, in spite of carrying a very, very old personal bias against the author (which I also have to acknowledge to myself in order to ensure I am being unbiased. )  As the differing opinions show, like anything else, your take away is going to depend on what you really like.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I actually prefer more bland settings, so that the game is about what you and the players do, not about the bitchen unique special bizarre byzantine world that someone created.  If you have to read an encyclopedia to know what the hell you're doing, then the designers went overboard.

[Lord Liaden]

Regarding the "blandness" of Elweir, as well as the aforementioned Aarn, I can't help but contrast them with my preferred city setting from the Turakian Age world of Ambrethel, the Free City of Tavrosel. Described as an "enormous" city per the standards of the era, Tavrosel is a great center of trade, at a location where the "Western" cultures of Mhorecia and the Westerlands mingle with the "Eastern" culture of Khoria, giving it a cosmopolitan diversity and sophistication. Long a conquered land, the Tavroselans finally rebelled and over decades of war forced their oppressors to recognize their independence, leaving them a tradition of respecting fighting men and hiring mercenaries to defend the city. Tavrosel lies within the spheres of influence of several larger powers, and not only invests in strong military and magical defenses, but extensive diplomatic efforts to maintain its freedom.

 

Having experimented with various forms of government over the centuries, Tavrosel "today" is a semi-democracy ruled by a Triumvirate elected by three social groups: one Triumvir from the nobles, one from the guilds and merchants, and the third from all other citizens. The Triumvirs often conflict and sometimes scheme against each other, but the city's large bureaucracy keeps it functioning in spite of that.

 

There isn't much more detail than that given about Tavrosel, which leaves me much room to develop it as I wish; but just what I related above gives me a stronger sense of the style and atmosphere of the place, and of how its people think and live, than all the pages devoted to Elweir.

[SCUBA Hero]

5 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I actually prefer more bland settings, so that the game is about what you and the players do, not about the bitchen unique special bizarre byzantine world that someone created.  If you have to read an encyclopedia to know what the hell you're doing, then the designers went overboard.

I like spicy settings.  Partially because (like Duke Bushido) I read them for entertainment, and also because I'm always looking for ideas to rip off use in other games, and because I like having a lot of details already spelled out.

 

Hey, I ran a Harn campaign for my gaming group, which was well received.  (Classic moment:  the party had picked up a cat [that was supposed to be a throw-away encounter] and kind of made it their mascot, calling it 'Shadow', so I ran with it.  The cat was injured in an encounter, and the PCs had to travel hard and fast to another place to warn the inhabitants of danger.  So I told the group, "Okay, but if you ride that hard, I'll need to make rolls for the cat - and if there's a failed roll, Shadow dies."  Player immediately drops out of character, points a finger at me and says, "Don't you DARE kill Shadow!!").

 

Given the opportunity, I'd like to run a Harn Hero campaign.  Don't know if it will ever happen, but if it does the story arc will include elements from canon that have enough ambiguity/mystery that I can build my own creation in the existing world.  And Harn is an *incredibly* detailed world.  And I can fall back on canon if (when!) needed.

[Scott Ruggels]

38 minutes ago, SCUBA Hero said:

 

 

Given the opportunity, I'd like to run a Harn Hero campaign.  Don't know if it will ever happen, but if it does the story arc will include elements from canon that have enough ambiguity/mystery that I can build my own creation in the existing world.  And Harn is an *incredibly* detailed world.  And I can fall back on canon if (when!) needed.

 

Some one on the Hero Discord IS running a Harn Hero campaign.

[SCUBA Hero]

Huzzah!

[dmjalund]

IMO a setting is supposed to inspire. If you don't need inspiration, you can make your own setting

[Scott Ruggels]

6 hours ago, dmjalund said:

IMO a setting is supposed to inspire. If you don't need inspiration, you can make your own setting

Well, if you have the time. That’s the problem (and the origin of so many threads here on this forum), in that few people now have the time and inclination to homebrew settings any more. More screen time means more work, more social media, and more distractions than ten years ago. People will pay for backgrounds. 

[Steve]

I recently used Elweir in a one-shot test for a possible S&S campaign set in the Valdorian Age, and my players all enjoyed themselves a lot, so that gets it a thumbs up from the four of us.

[Lord Liaden]

It does have to be granted that Elweir is the most fully-developed fantasy city ever written for Hero Games, including pretty detailed maps. It's a solid template on which to hang something more flavorful.

 

BTW thanks to our forum colleague Bluesguy, the maps from TVA are available in JPG form for free download from the Hero Games website: https://www.herogames.com/files/file/35-valdorian-age-maps/

[DShomshak]

Well... There's detail and flavor that constrain, and detail and flavor that inspire. White Wolf's old "By Night" series for Vampire: the Masquerade were very much the former. All the leading vampires in a city, and a lot of the minor ones, with their personalities, areas of influence, and relationships. Um, fine, great reading, now what are our PCs supposed to do in this place that clearly does not need them? Can we perhaps have some story suggestions that go beyond, "Elder X hires the PCs as disposable minions to do Y, and elder Z opposes them"?

 

I have not read Valdorian Age, so I cannot comment. But I think it should be possible to describe a setting that's interesting enough that people want to set their characters in that world, that provides enough guidance and inspiration that it's possible to create characters who feel like they belong there (and not just, "Well, I'm Legolas with a different name, never mind that this makes no sense for the setting" -- I remember your rants, Duke, and you have my condolences -- or, "I'm Conan with a different name," etc.), with copious and varied story seeds, but open enough that players and GMs can create their own stories.

 

If you want to write a novel, write your gol-darn novel and self-publish on Amazon. Writing a *game setting* is a different craft. You aren't telling a story or designing an adventure; you're providing materials to help other people tell stories and designing adventures. It's what I tried to do with my "Supermage" material for Champions, and I think I did it pretty well. Turakian Age is pretty good at this, too, once you get outside the Generic Fantasy Warehouse region of the Westerlands and, I'm sorry to say, Kal-Turak himself.

 

Dean Shomshak

 

Dean Shomshak

[Steve]

3 hours ago, DShomshak said:

Well... There's detail and flavor that constrain, and detail and flavor that inspire. White Wolf's old "By Night" series for Vampire: the Masquerade were very much the former. All the leading vampires in a city, and a lot of the minor ones, with their personalities, areas of influence, and relationships. Um, fine, great reading, now what are our PCs supposed to do in this place that clearly does not need them? Can we perhaps have some story suggestions that go beyond, "Elder X hires the PCs as disposable minions to do Y, and elder Z opposes them"?

 

I have not read Valdorian Age, so I cannot comment. But I think it should be possible to describe a setting that's interesting enough that people want to set their characters in that world, that provides enough guidance and inspiration that it's possible to create characters who feel like they belong there (and not just, "Well, I'm Legolas with a different name, never mind that this makes no sense for the setting" -- I remember your rants, Duke, and you have my condolences -- or, "I'm Conan with a different name," etc.), with copious and varied story seeds, but open enough that players and GMs can create their own stories.

 

If you want to write a novel, write your gol-darn novel and self-publish on Amazon. Writing a *game setting* is a different craft. You aren't telling a story or designing an adventure; you're providing materials to help other people tell stories and designing adventures. It's what I tried to do with my "Supermage" material for Champions, and I think I did it pretty well. Turakian Age is pretty good at this, too, once you get outside the Generic Fantasy Warehouse region of the Westerlands and, I'm sorry to say, Kal-Turak himself.

 

Dean Shomshak

 

Dean Shomshak

I’m now curious, DS. What were your favorite parts of the Turakian Age’s setting that were outside the Weaterlands?

 

Regarding the Valdorian Age’s setting, it seemed to have plenty of flavor, but it needs the GM to do a bit of work to expand what’s outside Elweir. There’s a skeleton to build on, but there does need some work on the part of the GM to flesh it out.

[Lord Liaden]

I would say that good adventuring potential in TVA could be found in the region called Three Fingers. The land is divided among more than a dozen petty lords in an almost constant state of warfare, so there's plenty of employment for mercenary fighting men. There are also opportunities for someone to win a lordship of his/her own. Three Fingers is close to and often trades with the neighboring lands of Amyklai and Graecoria, and traders from Elweir regularly sail up the Serpentine River to call there.

 

Three Fingers is also one of several lands bordering the vast Nylsen Forest, an area ripe for development. The forest receives very little mention in TVA, other than that the bandits from Cavren's Demise have taken to lying in wait in the forest to ambush traders sailing the Serpentine River; and that a black magician once maintained a tower deep within it.

[DShomshak]

21 hours ago, Steve said:

I’m now curious, DS. What were your favorite parts of the Turakian Age’s setting that were outside the Weaterlands?

 

Since you ask... I find Vornakkia the most appealing part of the setting. It seems the most creative and non-generic, and just plain fun. (And when I asked, Steve Long confirmed that it was the section of Amrethel he had the most fun designing. I think it shows.)

 

It seems well stocked with elements a GM could use to build wider conflicts and story arcs.

 

For adversaries, the Hargeshite Empire of Vashkhor interests me more than Kal-Turak the Generic Motiveless Dark Lord. Vashkhor has a reason for its aggression: it is righteous. It has done terrible things to impose the True Doctrine. It can do so again.

 

Mhorecia also has strong development potential. In addition to Tavrosel, it has a nice selection of fairly diverse countries, with various potentials for both hostility and cooperation, without forming blocs of simplistic Good and Evil. The inland Sea of Mhorec is especially valuable for, hm, entangling the countries around it whether they want it or not. There's enough here that I think Mhorecia doesn't really need the rest of Ambrethel: It could have made an entirely adequate setting book by itself.

 

Any further discussion should switch over to the established "The Turakian Age is Seriously Underrated" thread (see link in LL's sig).

 

Dean Shomshak

Dean Shomshak

[Lord Liaden]

3 hours ago, DShomshak said:

Mhorecia also has strong development potential. In addition to Tavrosel, it has a nice selection of fairly diverse countries, with various potentials for both hostility and cooperation, without forming blocs of simplistic Good and Evil. The inland Sea of Mhorec is especially valuable for, hm, entangling the countries around it whether they want it or not. There's enough here that I think Mhorecia doesn't really need the rest of Ambrethel: It could have made an entirely adequate setting book by itself.

 

Interesting and practical idea, and probably relevant to the type of intro-level Hero game book being discussed on the 5th Edition Renaissance thread.

[bluesguy]

I have used the Valdorian Age for a campaign.  The low magic and limited number of "monsters" created an interesting campaign.  The players spent most of their time dealing with political intrigue, running an inn, dealing with bandits, prejudice (people in VA really hate other races - one player was playing a dwarf), crimes (including a serial killer), romance, and growing threat from a necromancer.  Most of the source material is built around Elweir.  However there is enough material for the rest of the world for a GM to fill in the gaps.

 

My old campaign can be found on the Obsidian Portal

 

I also ran a very short lived Harn Campaign using Hero.  It was short lived because we moved before it really got going.  Harn has an insane amount of background material.

[Lord Liaden]

12 hours ago, bluesguy said:

(people in VA really hate other races - one player was playing a dwarf)

 

I'm curious, was the player playing a "classic" dwarf, or one of VA's devolved descendants of them, the Gronard?

 

That's representative of non-humans generally during the Valdorian Age. Most of them have declined from what they were during the preceeding Turakian Age, physically and mentally, and are on their way to going extinct. This truly is paving the way for the human-centric future. (BTW that's also reflective of some of the S&S source material the book builds from, notably Howard and Moorcock.)

[bluesguy]

2 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

I'm curious, was the player playing a "classic" dwarf, or one of VA's devolved descendants of them, the Gronard?

 

More classic and way more isolated.  I treated dwarfs as a 'race' that had fallen into legends people told their children to scare them ("be good or a dwarf will snatch you away and take you to their underground mines where you will never see the sun again").

[Christopher R Taylor]

That's what I did with gnomes: they are tiny earth elementals that look like little wizened men, not necessarily nice ones, either.