Extra Damage Only For Stunning

[Uthanar]

Looking at making a power that does damage, but then has extra damage that is only useful to determine whether the target is Stunned or not.  I was thinking that would likely be a -1 Limitation, but did not know if there was something to reference for something similar.  

[Hyper-Man]

Making a Blast Stun Only is a - 0 Limitation.

 

You might want to look at the Stunning option within Change Environment.

[Uthanar]

Will take a look at that.  

As for that -0 Modifier, that is to have it not do Body rather than not do damage at all, right?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Right, it should be a bigger limitation to do no actual damage other than stunning the target.  I'd probably give that a -1/2 since it is having significant combat effect, just not as long-term.

[Steve]

I don't have my books handy right now, but I believe Change Environment's Stunning effect is 20 Active Points and can be resisted with a CON roll. You could link it to an attack power and get the effect it sounds like you are going for.

[Uthanar]

I just went and looked at Change Environment and did not find the Stunning application.  Is there a book reference someone can provide?  

 

Found it in APG 1.  Thanks.  

[Beast]

or you could link a con drain to the attack

[Greywind]

As I recall, the damage would be assessed fully before the drain hit. So, yeah, you drain his CON. Whether or not he was stunned depends on his CON before the drain.

[WistfulD]

As I recall, the damage would be assessed fully before the drain hit. So, yeah, you drain his CON. Whether or not he was stunned depends on his CON before the drain.

Second effect with extra time (delayed phase)?

[Greywind]

No. Naturally occurring.

 

You can't hit someone with PD Attack coupled with a PD drain effect and have their PD drained first. Same with an ED attack. I would also translate that to any attack coupled with a CON drain.

[WistfulD]

A little cheesy I'll admit. Buying an extra point of speed with the "only for follow-up attack" or a trigger might also be considered that.

 

I myself like the idea of simply more damage dice, but with a only for stun exceeding con purposes limitation. I'd say it's a - 1/2 limitation (It's only slightly less powerful than other attacks-which-can't-accindetally-kill-someone, which is what it is clearly competing with).

[Tech]

I don't have my books handy right now, but I believe Change Environment's Stunning effect is 20 Active Points and can be resisted with a CON roll. You could link it to an attack power and get the effect it sounds like you are going for.

 

I've don't have the AGP 1. How does this Stunning effect work?

[Hyper-Man]

Here's an example of using it to build a Taser Shotgun:

 

27 Taser Shotgun: Change Environment (-6 to Characteristic Roll or Skill Roll, Long-Lasting 1 Turn, Stunning), Sticky (+1/2) (75 Active Points); OAF (-1), Instant (-1/2), Can Be Deflected (-1/4), 4 clips of 12 Charges (Increased Reloading Time: 2 Full Phases; -0)

[Notes: From APG1 page 83 - The Stunned effect lasts as long as the Change Environment is maintained (1 Turn*). However, when affected the victim gets to make a CON Roll immediately (at -6*), and if the roll succeeds the attack has no effect on him. If the roll fails, he gets to make an additional CON Roll every Phase he’s affected at a cumulative +1 (so +1 on his second roll, +2 on his third, and so on). As soon as any roll succeeds, the power immediately stops affecting him and he has his full Phase in which to act.] - END=[12]

 

edit - here's the a more detailed build I found:

 

15 Taser Shotgun: Change Environment (-6 to Characteristic Roll or Skill Roll, Long-Lasting 1 Turn, Stunning), Sticky (+1/2) (75 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 9-13 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), Instant (-1/2), 2 clips of 12 Charges (Increased Reloading Time: 1 Turn; -1/2), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), Can Be Deflected (-1/4)

[Notes: From APG1 page 83 - The Stunned effect lasts as long as the Change Environment is maintained (1 Turn*). However, when affected the victim gets to make a CON Roll immediately (at -6*), and if the roll succeeds the attack has no effect on him. If the roll fails, he gets to make an additional CON Roll every Phase he’s affected at a cumulative +1 (so +1 on his second roll, +2 on his third, and so on). As soon as any roll succeeds, the power immediately stops affecting him and he has his full Phase in which to act.] - END=[12]

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Its a bit odd, because as a Change Environment effect, its constant.  So people stay stunned until the effect ends, they are out of the area, or they make  CON roll to break free.  Being stunned sucks so bad I'm frankly amazed its built as a continuous effect.

[Uthanar]

The power surprised me a bit.  It seems to do its job very well and is a really nasty effect.  The way that I was doing something similar before was Con based Entangles.  

[Hyper-Man]

It was possible to build a similar effect in 5e via Supress (it's own separate power in that ruleset). I like the Change Environment method better.  One major difference is that Overall Levels can be used as a defense (improving the CON roll to defend against the effect).

[Lucius]

Frankly, I think extra damage only for stunning seems simpler.

 

Not to mention, available to anyone with the core rules but not the extras in Advanced Player's Guide.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Extra palindromedary only for taglines

[Hyper-Man]

It's also built into the latest versions of Hero Designer.

[massey]

Oh it's worth way, way more than a -1/2.  Waaaay more.  I'd say the limitation should be somewhere in the -1 1/2 to -2 range, in all likelihood.  That's a lot more than other people suggest, but I think it's appropriate.  It would probably never be smaller than -1, unless it's built as part of an overall team strategy.

 

First you have to consider the size of the attack.  How often will the average opponent be stunned by it?  Can you exceed campaign dice limits with your attack?  If the average opponent has 20 Def and 25 Con, and you've got a 12D6 "can only stun" energy blast, then it's unlikely to do anything at all to most opponents.  Now if those are the average defenses and you've got an 18D6 "can only stun" attack, then it's a lot more likely to stun them.

 

Then you've got to factor in that the attack can't actually knock anyone unconscious.  If that's your only attack, the only thing you can do is keep someone stunned.  You can't actually finish a fight with it.  In my experience, most attacks are designed to work through attrition -- you nickle and dime your opponent to unconsciousness.  This power doesn't do that, and doesn't contribute to that, and leaves a person perfectly healthy whether it works or not.

 

Finally you have to realize that you're using an action every time you do it.  Even if you're successful, all you've done is use one of your actions so that your opponent doesn't get one of theirs.  You're breaking even, except you still have to worry about rolling to-hit, rolling good enough damage, and spending Endurance.  And that's if your power works exactly as it's designed.  Combat-wise, you end up in the exact same place you were before, except minus some Endurance and it's a few segments later.  If you miss, or don't beat his Con score, then you're actually in a worse place then you were before.  With normal attacks at least you're gradually wearing down your opponent's Stun total.

 

 

 

Now, the actual value is going to be very campaign specific and very build specific.  If you have enough dice that you can Con stun Mechanon nearly every time you hit him, and that's the plan so that the rest of the team can then pound on him with impunity, then it's still a pretty useful power.  That's presuming, though, that a good amount of your fights are "team versus one big villain".  If you normally fight Viper teams then your power is worse than useless, because you're going to be regularly outnumbered.  At that point it's like a Viper guy is using his action to stun you.  "Hey guys, I gave up my action by him shooting at me so that he can't do anything else this phase!"

 

If your team has well developed strategies for how to best take advantage of this power, then the limitation may not be worth as much.  If it's in a multipower with a bunch of other attacks, then the limitation may not be worth as much because it's just one move out of many (and you're only spending like 3 or 4 points on the slot anyway).

 

The only real benefit I see is if you target an opponent who has a lot of non-persistent powers, especially defenses (and like everything else, it's better if you have a high Speed).  You shoot Force Field Guy and his 30/30 Force Field drops.  Then your next action comes along before his does and you blast him with your normal attack (in the multipower) and hit his puny 8 PD and ED.

 

Now that's a legitimate use of the power, and that's why it's worth some points.  But remember that the power is very specific and it is very limited.  Stunning someone in Hero is usually very powerful not just because they lose their next chance to go, but also because you blew 35 Stun off of them.  This power doesn't do that second effect.

[Hyper-Man]

deleted

[Mister E]

Cannot Be Stunned (15 cp) is proof versus single target CE:Stunning attacks. It is the "de facto" Life Support.

 

It follows that there ought to be a Change Environment ("Bleeding") to coincide w/ the Does Not Bleed Automaton Power.

 

For symmetry.

[Mister E]

Stunning stretches Change Environment pretty far.

 

I would make it a new Power.

[Hyper-Man]

Or just make Suppress its own separate Power again.

 

In 5e you could do this:

 

20 Tazer Round Loaded Shotgun: Suppress STUN 8d6 (standard effect: 24 points), [DEX & STUN] simultaneously (+1/2) (60 Active Points); OAF (Shotgun; -1), Can Be Missile Deflected (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Physical Manifestation (Shell sticking to victim; -1/4), Limited Range (Shell must hit target with enough velocity to stick to clothes or skin [There is no damage from impact]; -1/4), 8 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (-0)

[Notes: Negative Dexterity - At DEX 1 or less, a character is CV 0. A character with negative DEX loses control over his reactions, and must succeed with DEX Rolls to perform any Actions requiring physical movement (even just aiming at a target, or making Gestures). If he fails the DEX Roll, he cannot perform the Action that Phase. Characters with a DEX of -30 (or minus their initial DEX value, whichever is better for the character) or less may take no physical actions.] - END=[8 cc]

 

It would take more than one hit to Stun most targets but it would keep them down for a few Phases.

[Mister E]

I would make "Only For Stunning" a -0 Limitation/Advantage.

 

It is too good.

[Hyper-Man]

But Stun Only is already -0 and it does contribute to knocking out a target.  Only for Stunning should be worth at least -1/4 and probably more for the reasons pointed out by Massey.  Another reason is that many GM's impose a Damage Class cap if not a flat Active Point cap.  If only the former, a reduction to Real Points would be about the only way this would get used by allowing some Advantages like AOE Accurate to be added and still be able afford the ability outside of any other capped frameworks.