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Character types that other game systems can't handle

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The key difference is that all the extra HERO books do not actually introduce much if any actual NEW rules. They typically only provide example builds that anyone could do on their own with the core rules.

 

HM

I was meaning all the D&D books.

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Of course, we are picking exclusively at D&D and its ilk. The thread is about "other game systems" not just class/level ones. So let's get a more direct comparison. Are there character types that Hero does better than Gurps, Savage Worlds, Cortex, Cortex Plus or Fate. To be honest, Fate is sort of an unfair comparison. It is deliberately written to simulate anything, but not with very detailed mechanics. It is almost the definition of handwavium in gaming.

I'll be honest, I found Gurps to be very tedious for character generation. I would not want to have to do that again. Hero is sometimes painful in character generation, but I had more a feeling of, ah ha, this is how this power will be modelled, and you feel like an evil genius until gameplay reveals that no matter how great the cool power, you are going to roll badly today.

 

Somehow, making characters in Gurps just felt like Palm Sunday mass had been turned into a movie by Ang Lee, and Peter Jackson convinced him to make a trilogy out of it. It's been a looong time since I did any Gurps, so I can't even remember why it felt that way, I just came away from Gurps with an aversion to character generation. I imagine you could model a lot of the same things. It's weird, I like making Hero characters, I can't for the life of me pin down why I hated making Gurps characters so much.

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Of course there's no autohit in Hero*, but the usual way is with some combination of One Hex AOE, +OCV, autofire, sometimes NND does body, and sometimes even attack vs. ECV.  Much like Sleep it becomes outrageously expensive, even after you tack on Charges 1x/day, but that just goes to show you how OP Magic Missile really is.  Especially compared to Magic Mouth.  Or Tenser's Floating Disc.  The only reason it's not radically unbalanced in D&D is because of the hit point system there.

 

 

* Which is a feature, not a bug.

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Build a magic missile in Hero.

 

1D6 NND Blast, 1 hex area, accurate, megascale, no range.  (5*(1+1+1+0.25+1))/1.5 = 14pts

 

You could add autofire if you want but it gets expensive quick...

 

now there is often good reason to exclude using accurate and megascale together but I think magic missile fits the bill.  If you can dive 1km for cover I reckon I can live with a magic missile missing....

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Most magic systems in games autohit,

I don't know about most.  Magic attacks in Savage Worlds, GURPS, the few Fate settings I've played, Unisystem, Call of Cthulhu, Sixcess, some versions of Cortex, and pretty much every indie game I've ever played has required a roll.  The only games, in my experience, that have auto-hit magic is D&D and its clones.  And even then, most attack spells either require an attack roll or are area of effect and the single target auto-hit spells have the saving throw mechanic so someone is still having to roll to something to determine the spell's effectiveness.  D&D saving throws pretty much only exist as a balancing factor to the fact that the magic was made up ad hoc without any consistent underlying system.

 

which is interesting because its one thing that Hero only does awkwardly (or with custom modifiers).  Its one area Hero is, in my opinion, weak in because of one of its primary design concepts: no absolutes.

I think the Absolute Effect rules and GM discretion cover most cases pretty well. The Absolutes in a gritty, no-magic fantasy or low powered heroic military game would not make sense in a four color comic setting. What absolutes exist, if any, is a Campaign issue, not a system issue with Hero.

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1D6 NND Blast, 1 hex area, accurate, megascale, no range.  (5*(1+1+1+0.25+1))/1.5 = 14pts

 

You could add autofire if you want but it gets expensive quick...

 

now there is often good reason to exclude using accurate and megascale together but I think magic missile fits the bill.  If you can dive 1km for cover I reckon I can live with a magic missile missing....

 

Not really harping on the build, but I should think you would want to define what the Defense is for the NND. I imagine having Power Defense? Anyway, here is my take;

 

Magic Missile, Apprentice Killing Attack - Ranged 1/2d6, Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Power Defense; All Or Nothing; +0), Line Of Sight (+1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (1m Radius; +1/2), Does BODY (+1) (30 Active Points); Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Unified Power (Magic) (-1/4)  Real Cost: 17

 

Magic Missile, Journeyman Killing Attack - Ranged 1/2d6, Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Power Defense; All Or Nothing; +0), Line Of Sight (+1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (1m Radius; +1/2), Does BODY (+1), Autofire (2 shots; +1 1/4) (42 Active Points); Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Unified Power (Magic) (-1/4) Real Cost: 24 (but it is an upgrade so drop 17 points for a total of 7 to upgrade the power)

 

Magic Missile, Master Killing Attack - Ranged 1/2d6, Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Power Defense; All Or Nothing; +0), Line Of Sight (+1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (1m Radius; +1/2), Does BODY (+1), Autofire (5 shots; +1 1/2) (45 Active Points); Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Unified Power (Magic) (-1/4)  Real Cost: 26 (but it is an upgrade so drop 24 points for a total of 2 to upgrade the power - adding Autofire is what makes this power expensive so just increasing it by + 1/4 does not have much of a point cost impact)

 

If the GM allows Multipower or Variable Power Pools, you can ditch the Unified Power Limitation and just plop the powers into the framework. Then it would cost, 3, 5, and 9 points for a variable MP slot and "free" for a VPP.

 

Any Magic Missile build in Hero is going to be different than D&D though. They are different systems with different expected experiences. The key is understanding what you are looking for and playing to that expectation.

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I don't know about most.  Magic attacks in Savage Worlds, GURPS, the few Fate settings I've played, Unisystem, Call of Cthulhu, Sixcess, some versions of Cortex, and pretty much every indie game I've ever played has required a roll.  The only games, in my experience, that have auto-hit magic is D&D and its clones.  And even then, most attack spells either require an attack roll or are area of effect and the single target auto-hit spells have the saving throw mechanic so someone is still having to roll to something to determine the spell's effectiveness.  D&D saving throws pretty much only exist as a balancing factor to the fact that the magic was made up ad hoc without any consistent underlying system.

 

I think the Absolute Effect rules and GM discretion cover most cases pretty well. The Absolutes in a gritty, no-magic fantasy or low powered heroic military game would not make sense in a four color comic setting. What absolutes exist, if any, is a Campaign issue, not a system issue with Hero.

I think one thing is, the no absolutes have the effect of not bypassing other character's expenditures as a handout, and create a fairness. Magic Missile is, in effect, bypassing all the things a player might do to make them hard to hit by missiles. This SHOULD cost more, as those defenses cost and should not be bypassed by a special rule that invalidates them, like autohit.

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I think one thing is, the no absolutes have the effect of not bypassing other character's expenditures as a handout, and create a fairness. Magic Missile is, in effect, bypassing all the things a player might do to make them hard to hit by missiles. This SHOULD cost more, as those defenses cost and should not be bypassed by a special rule that invalidates them, like autohit.

 

But the Shield spell automatically stops Magic Missile, maybe that can be the defence to the NND, kills two birds with one stone!

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Not really harping on the build, but I should think you would want to define what the Defense is for the NND. I imagine having Power Defense? Anyway, here is my take;

 

Magic Missile, Apprentice Killing Attack - Ranged 1/2d6, Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Power Defense; All Or Nothing; +0), Line Of Sight (+1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (1m Radius; +1/2), Does BODY (+1) (30 Active Points); Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Unified Power (Magic) (-1/4)  Real Cost: 17

 

Magic Missile, Journeyman Killing Attack - Ranged 1/2d6, Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Power Defense; All Or Nothing; +0), Line Of Sight (+1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (1m Radius; +1/2), Does BODY (+1), Autofire (2 shots; +1 1/4) (42 Active Points); Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Unified Power (Magic) (-1/4) Real Cost: 24 (but it is an upgrade so drop 17 points for a total of 7 to upgrade the power)

 

Magic Missile, Master Killing Attack - Ranged 1/2d6, Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Power Defense; All Or Nothing; +0), Line Of Sight (+1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (1m Radius; +1/2), Does BODY (+1), Autofire (5 shots; +1 1/2) (45 Active Points); Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Unified Power (Magic) (-1/4)  Real Cost: 26 (but it is an upgrade so drop 24 points for a total of 2 to upgrade the power - adding Autofire is what makes this power expensive so just increasing it by + 1/4 does not have much of a point cost impact)

 

If the GM allows Multipower or Variable Power Pools, you can ditch the Unified Power Limitation and just plop the powers into the framework. Then it would cost, 3, 5, and 9 points for a variable MP slot and "free" for a VPP.

 

Any Magic Missile build in Hero is going to be different than D&D though. They are different systems with different expected experiences. The key is understanding what you are looking for and playing to that expectation.

 

I might add +10 OCV to offset the auto fire minuses which would add to the cost as well.

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Here's a version I did a while back

 

6 Magic Missile for 6e: RKA 1d6-1, Area Of Effect Accurate (4m Radius; +1/2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense ("Magic Resistance"; All Or Nothing; +1/2), Does BODY (+1) (30 Active Points); 1 Charge (-2), Limited Power Only Affects Living Targets (-1), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4), Limited Range (-1/4) - END=[1]

 

HM

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The big thing with the magic missile builds in HERO is that there will be a very small chance of missing unless the GM has built it with the proviso that anyone without magical defence or unearthly CV will get hit automatically but if you have a massive DCV then you might actually either dodge or block the missile.  That would be a cool game moment...

 

The other thing is that, unless you decide to artificially limit the use, the upside of the HERO build is that you use it as often as you want...

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The other thing is that, unless you decide to artificially limit the use, the upside of the HERO build is that you use it as often as you want...

 

All of my D&D to Hero builds had the "spells" in a multi-power and the multi-power using charges per day.  A little more flexible than the traditional D&D spell-caster since the caster could cast any spell in the array, just was limited per day. 

 

As for the auto-hit, I just mad the spell use ECV/OMCV/DMCV and added high enough to hit bonus to be effectively an auto-hit.  Heroic game character/NPC/Creature stats are not usually high enough to be cost prohibitive. 

 

Maybe not as elegant a build and maybe not as cost efficient, but it is close enough for a game.  The Mage can bang off a Magic Missile that will hit and be restricted to one or two a "day".  I normally just have it as one damage roll but describe it as multiple bolts. 

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I built a variant to ACV "No Normal Evasion" which allows building effects that always hit, but must provide some way of eluding the attack (also, doesn't make the attack indirect, etc).  And then a variant of AVAD for "saving throws" in which you roll against a stat or do something like dive for cover, with a lower advantage if the attack is ignored and a larger one if its halved.  It simulates the basic effects people are familiar with in hosts of games without much fuss.

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I built a variant to ACV "No Normal Evasion" which allows building effects that always hit, but must provide some way of eluding the attack (also, doesn't make the attack indirect, etc).  And then a variant of AVAD for "saving throws" in which you roll against a stat or do something like dive for cover, with a lower advantage if the attack is ignored and a larger one if its halved.  It simulates the basic effects people are familiar with in hosts of games without much fuss.

 

I like this and am actually now surprised it is not an official modifier.

 

I mean, NND and the other AVAD type advantages take defences out of the game except when they attack is absolutely ineffective (see what I did there?)

Why should you not be able to take DCV out of the game except when the attack always misses?

 

After all - HERO is pretty much a numbers game, the balance between how often you hit and when you do how much damage you get by defences in a turn compared with STUN/BODY and how much you recover in a turn.  All autohit does is remove some of the randomness of how often you hit.  The question would be what it is worth...+1?  +1.5??

 

Doc

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I think the issue with 'Hands' is in part because people are trying to approach his abilities through classes only; although hardly perfect I think a better starting point would be make him a doppleganger to handle the basic shape shifting and then try to get a hand on the partial shifting abilities.

 

 

As a disclaimer, its been awhile since I played DnD so I could be misremembering what dopplegangers can actually do.  };op

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