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4, 5 or 6?


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#1 GCMorris

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 02:52 PM

What are the differences between the editions? I really hate learning new systems but I feel like my 4e is pretty dated. I'm not sure if our group is going to get back together after our summer hiatus but I'm wanting to take a serious turn at being a player for a while. I would like to rebuild my brick Verbeeg (Very Big) with the new rules but I'm not sure it's worth the investment.

Enlighten me.

#2 dsatow

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 03:25 PM

There are several one to two page sheets describing the difference.

 

From a functional point of view, you could play most characters in one into another.  I usually allow this at cons.  The big functional differences is the lack of find weakness/lack of weakness in 6th and penetrating has its own defense impenetrable (+1/4).

 

From a build point of view, there are a lot of changes between the two especially between 6th and the other editions.  Growth gets really reamed in points in 6th.  If you are going to update, I would suggest going for 6th and getting Champions Complete as the cheaper way to go about it (buy CC online and they will give you a PDF copy for free last I looked).  I think most longtime GMs favor 5th over 6th for the most part (most due to the way growth and barrier were broken in 6th).

 

You can get 5th (and 6th) core rulebooks via print on demand IIRC if you can't find it in the HERO games online store.


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#3 zslane

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 03:34 PM

If you (and your group) is already accustomed to 4th edition, then I wouldn't advise switching to another version unless there is some really compelling reason to do so. Most 5e supplements will work without alteration in 4e, though there will be references to limitations and advantages here and there that aren't in 4e. Those are really easy to just take from 5e and use in 4e as needed.

 

The jump to 6e is much more involved and not recommended (by me) unless you really want to use the 6e core library books for equipment or monsters. Is there a 6e campaign setting you are desperate to use? I suspect not, and if not, then I would recommend not bothering with 6e.


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#4 Christougher

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 04:49 PM

Echoing the above, 4E and 5E are 95+% the same.  6E drops to about 90%.  If you're familiar with one, you're familiar with the others.  Biggest changes are mostly in point costs for powers; once you're playing it doesn't make much difference.


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#5 Christopher R Taylor

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 05:57 PM

Yeah when you're actually playing the game you aren't going to even notice the edition except for a power or two that comes up once in a while.  4th edition guy is going to say "Damage Negation??" but other than that, its the same game.


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#6 Nolgroth

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 06:16 PM

I will echo the 'stick to 4th if you are in doubt' sentiment. If your group is itching to move on, I suggest 6th. Fifth edition is enough like 4th to make it more of a lateral transfer.
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#7 massey

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 06:42 PM

5th edition has a few cost changes from 4th edition.  Aid doubled to 10 pts per D6.  Transform became cumulative by default.  They screwed around with Regeneration and Instant Change, building them out of other powers instead of leaving them separate.  And they added a ton more options (i.e., complexity) that didn't exist in 4th.

 

5th edition is a pretty good change from 4th.  The rules aren't quite as tight, but the extra options are nice.

 

6th edition made some big changes.  The biggest one is that it removed Figured Characteristics.  Having a high Str or Con doesn't give you any Stun or other stats.  Everything is bought separately.  And then they completely reworked the costs on a lot of things, including stats, skill levels, and many powers.  6th is like 75% the same game.



#8 Tasha

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 07:04 PM

One thing that 6e gives players is an increased amount of flexability in character generation. If they want a high OCV low DCV character they don't have to do it with Skill levels. Also the Dex/Spd wars end with 6e. PC's don't HAVE to have high strength and high dex to have a decent secondary characteristics.

Also no more Elemental controls, No GM's having to say "no that doesn't belong in an EC, or Yeah, you can put that in the EC even though it's illegal", no more split powers where the EC is small and you have part of the power in the EC and the rest without any bonus. It's all been replaced by a handy Limitation "Unified Power" which links all powers of a given special effect together. It means that if one power is drained they are all drained by the same amount. It's much more simple to use and simplifies the math a TON. BTW in 5e EC's assume that all powers inside the EC are drained when any power is drained that is in the EC.

Area Effect Advantage is much more flexable with being able to choose the size of the AOE, also Explosion is a part of the AOE advantage and cheapens the advantage like Uncontrolled Selective does in 4e.

Growth is expensive in 6e because it includes all of the things it included in 3rd ed (reach, running bonus, KB resistance etc).

there are a ton of other changes in Character Gen that are very cool and very worth looking at. Champions Complete is a great way to get 6e. It doesn't have as many examples and nitty gritty edge case rulings, but it has everything you need. IMHO it's the best $40 you can spend on a game.

 


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#9 Hugh Neilson

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 08:00 AM

I'll mention one of my favorite 6e modifications: Armor Piercing is actually viable now. As a +1/4 advantage, it can be the hero's primary attack in a Champions game without crippling him every time we see hardened defenses. [Funny how we will typically not let an AP attack exceed the DC cap, but we generally have no problem with campaign max defenses being Hardened...]

Expanding on Tasha's comment on Figured, many costing (while not perfect) is vastly improved. Skill levels are much closer with the changes to characteristics. It is actually viable to buy more STUN, END and REC rather than Defenses and Reduced END.

Overall, though, the "sames" vastly outweigh the changes, it's the same game and it plays the same.
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#10 Cantriped

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 09:58 AM

While I'm not sure that 6E1&2 are worth investing in if you are looking to try a new edition, Champions or Fantasy Hero Complete definitely ‚Äčare. My wife jumped straight from 4th edition to CC/FHC, and I jumped straight from 5th edition to CC/FHC. I feel like its impossible to find anything in 6E1&2, so while I like the ruleset, I hate those particular books. 6th edition supplements convert just as easily to CC/FHC as they do to any other edition in that 95% of the material is fine as is, but the costs of certain things change slightly (namely certain skills which were imploded in CC/FHC).

I'm certain there is a document floating around the net somewhere that details many of the changes made from edition to edition, but I'm not sure where you would find it now... I think it might be available for free on Paizo's site, or as part of the digital package for Champions Complete.

 

Character generation is a bit different, but I think overall it has improved (at least since 5th). My wife is sad they got rid of Figured Characteristics and Elemental Controls, but personally I think it makes character generation much easier by removing most of the fiddly math from character optimization. In 5th edition I felt like I had to use Hero Designer to build anything, with CC/FHC I generally don't bother using it at all.

 

Once you get into Gameplay itself, I feel like 6E/CC/FHC are all basically the same as 4th & 5th, neither my wife nor I had any trouble making the transition to CC/FHC.


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#11 Christopher R Taylor

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 02:26 PM

I think if you trim down the big books a bit (leave out 'the history of Champions,' for example, stuff like 'design philosophy' and so on, you can make a pretty streamlined book with all the rules and examples you want.  Good for your own POD version of your PDF.


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#12 zslane

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 02:37 PM

I'm curious how one similarly "trims down" the character writeups in books like the 6e Enemies books? They are all really good examples of how 6e hs evolved into the system afflicted with Massive Blocks of Inscruitable Text syndrome.



#13 Christopher R Taylor

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 03:20 PM

For one thing, you leave off the modifier numbers (+1/4) etc.  That cuts back a character writeup by a pretty large amount.


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Jolrhos Bestiary Monster Pack for Hero Designer

Elenthar's Tower

 

The Kestrel Arts webpage: art, books, free downloads, and more


#14 Tasha

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 02:02 AM

I'm curious how one similarly "trims down" the character writeups in books like the 6e Enemies books? They are all really good examples of how 6e hs evolved into the system afflicted with Massive Blocks of Inscruitable Text syndrome.

 

Most of those write ups create full characters instead of a simple power writeup. It makes the character sheet longer, but it's nice seeing a fully fleshed out character YMMV. Many of us have been building complex characters since 4e.


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#15 Tasha

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 02:05 AM

To navigate 6e1 and 6e2 you either use the index (which includes page numbers for both books in both books) or you use the Table of Contents. On the PDF it's generally easier to use the PDF's Table of Contents. Even without that Once you understand how the books are organized it's not very hard to find stuff. They are organized exactly like 5e and 5er.


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#16 NuSoardGraphite

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 07:49 AM

5th edition is my go to.


It is like a more detailed and malleable version of 4th edition, which is the version I started with (though I did play some 3rd ed stuff too) so that is what I prefer.
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#17 zslane

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 02:03 PM

The OP certainly doesn't have to (and shouldn't) take my word for it. I suggest that he peruse the 6e Villains books and decide if he likes what he sees.



#18 zslane

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 09:58 AM

I guess one compelling reason to move to 5e or 6e is you can use Hero Designer.



#19 Christopher R Taylor

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 10:17 AM

Here's how I see the editions:

 

4th: simple layout but organized, unites different Hero products into one system, excellent support and source materials, adventures, etc.

5th: organizes better and more clearly creates one system to run all genres under, adds some great new features for build concepts and fixes some problems with past editions

6th: streamlines character creation and increases flexibility, gives exhaustive rules and examples for every situation. Excellent third party support.


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Also author of Hero Games licensed products:

The Lost Castle

The Fantasy Codex

Jolrhos Bestiary
Jolrhos Bestiary Monster Pack for Hero Designer

Elenthar's Tower

 

The Kestrel Arts webpage: art, books, free downloads, and more


#20 Tasha

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 01:55 AM

Here's how I see the editions:

 

4th: simple layout but organized, unites different Hero products into one system, excellent support and source materials, adventures, etc.

5th: organizes better and more clearly creates one system to run all genres under, adds some great new features for build concepts and fixes some problems with past editions

6th: streamlines character creation and increases flexibility, gives exhaustive rules and examples for every situation. Excellent third party support.

you missed an edition
5er: Still organized great and has the fixes of 5th but gives exhaustive rules and examples for every situation. Has great Hero Games support with a ton of supplements and Genre books.

Champions Complete. Has the Character design Options of 6e, but has a more simple layout and organization. Fewer Edge Case rulings and examples. Simplifies some powers. Is 6e just edited down into something easier to digest.