Too many Magics?

[Mr. R]

AS I was rooting around Sir Shrike's pages, I found another Magic System the caught my interest.  

 

Now already I planning on using his Metier System as my basic wizard type, and there is NO gift, anyone can learn it!

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/metierSystem.aspx

 

 

Also to give a rational for all those magic items

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/Runecrafting.aspx

 

But I want a system for those simpler types.  This would be the magics of the nomads but also the, I don't want to say poor people, but yes marginalized would fit

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/TotemicShamanism.aspx

 

 

So, my questions:

A) is this too many?

 

B)Am I going down a path where the Casters get all the goodies and the non casters (you know, the warrior, rogues, etc) don't get anything NICE?

 

C) Should I make a hard wall between Magic Users?  By this I mean should practicing type 1 preclude you from learning type 2 or type 3?  

 

Any comment welcome and appreciated!

[Asperion]

I have always believed that there should be one spell caster (perhaps as many as three) for every billion people around.  At this frequency,  even in the largest cities there might be one person capable of casting spells.  Depending upon the public view,  this person could be in a position of prestige or some random being on the street. If there is a magic university,  they will need to operate by communicating with members in the field rather than having some elaborate location somewhere. If you desire more than one type of magic,  then they should be greatly different. A good example of this would be Druid and wizard magic. Druid magic would be the magic involving the aspect of nature (regardless of where the Druid is) and all spells will have the form of plants,  animals,  earth, natural forces,  etc. This can be highly internalized and only requires strong concentration from the Druid. Wizard magic would be in the form of external spells that is more centered on control of other people, objects,  creatures, and other forms of manipulation. 

 

Just my opinion and ROT (rule of thumb)

[eepjr24]

To juxtaposition Asperion, magic works differently in nearly every setting I design. My current setting has 3 major categories of "spell" magic, each with 4 sub spheres. They all work under one system (call it Vitality Pools for simplicity) but have differing SFX and rules for casting (required limitations and style). There is also an alchemy system and two forms of runic magic for making items of either temporary or permanent nature. Magic is common enough that 1 in 100 or so people will know a minor magic or two.

 

I don't think it's too many as long as it makes sense to your players and they don't get lost in the details.

 

- E

[DShomshak]

14 hours ago, Mr. R said:

A) is this too many?

 

B)Am I going down a path where the Casters get all the goodies and the non casters (you know, the warrior, rogues, etc) don't get anything NICE?

 

C) Should I make a hard wall between Magic Users?  By this I mean should practicing type 1 preclude you from learning type 2 or type 3?  

 

A) Too many for what? A setting with only one kind of magic can be focused and challenge players to use what magic is available, exploring it in depth. A world with multiple forms of magic can feel mysterious and open (as the real world was for people in premodern times -- anything could exist just over the horizon), and gives players more options. Though, yes, a large number of magics can also feel arbitrary and encourage an attitude of picking whatever collection of magics seem useful without regard for internal logic.

 

Three sorts of magic that operate in quite different ways, for quite different ends, does not automatically seem excessive to me. But it depends on what sort of setting you intend to create -- and no one else can answer that question for you.

 

That is up to you. If you don't design anything cool for other sorts of characters, then yes, the setting may seem front-loaded on magic.

 

Non-spellcasters can have "non-power Powers" that represent special weapon techniques or other extraordinary training. See Ultimate Martial Artist or Dark Champions for examples.

 

C) That actually does sound liike a good idea. It helps to preserve the mystique of each form of magic so they seem, well, magical, instead of a buffet of arbitrary Powers. Come up with whatever in-setting justification you want.

 

(Unless the whole point of your saga is that some PC is going to become the first multi-caster, as in Hardy's Master of Five Magics. But that's a whole 'nother issue -- and again, is something you must decide for yourself.)

 

Dean Shomshak

[Duke Bushido]

Go for what you like.

 

When I do low fantasy, what magic there is all tends to work in the same way.

 

When I do high fantasy, I range from a couple of kinds of magic to every kind of magic works according to unique rules.  Its all a matter of the feel I want magic to have in that particular setting.

 

 

 

[assault]

6 hours ago, Asperion said:

I have always believed that there should be one spell caster (perhaps as many as three) for every billion people around.  At this frequency,  even in the largest cities there might be one person capable of casting spells.

 

Billions? Even in our world that makes them vanishingly rare. In a premodern setting they would be virtually nonexistent.

[Duke Bushido]

59 minutes ago, assault said:

 

Billions? Even in our world that makes them vanishingly rare. In a premodern setting they would be virtually nonexistent.

 

 

The most current data I can find shows just under 8 billion people on earth today, and I can say that even here in rural america, I am tripping over the danged things!

 

At three per billion, that means that on modern earth, there are not 24 people on the entire globe.

 

 

Now before I go _any_ further, I want to say up front that there is absolutely _nothing_ wrong with that.  It's your setting, after all, and if that's where you want magic to be in your world, go for it.  Just remember that your players aren't going to have much fun if that doesn't bind the GM also: adventures that culminate in magic wielding foes are going to get a bit....    hard to accept, I guess is the best way to say that.

 

Now in 1900, there were 2 billion people on earth (and I am sure it was delightful, at least to the curmudgeons like me).  I remember a point in the... 70s?  Early 80s?  Where there were "roughly 4 billion," so let's say a doubling every fifty years.

 

Still, in 1900, there would only be six people on the planet who could do magic.  Go back to 1800, and there were only 1 billion people (estimated) on the planet, meaning three whole magic users.  Go to 1700 and the estimate is 603 million, or roughly 2 magic users.  Go back to 1400, and the estimate changes to 390 million.  On the planet.  Or, roughly, one magic user.

 

The only problem I can really see is three players wanting to know a little magic.

 

 

Other than that, it's your party, Sir; decorate the way you like. 

 

 

 

 

[Opal]

A) no.  You can have multiple systems of magic, but they're all Hero System

 

B ) yes. Maybe throw in some skill-as-power or slightly over the top martial arts

 

C) no, but you could put in some minor inefficiencies, like each type of magic uses a different skill...

 

[Mr. R]

11 hours ago, DShomshak said:

A) Too many for what? A setting with only one kind of magic can be focused and challenge players to use what magic is available, exploring it in depth. A world with multiple forms of magic can feel mysterious and open (as the real world was for people in premodern times -- anything could exist just over the horizon), and gives players more options. Though, yes, a large number of magics can also feel arbitrary and encourage an attitude of picking whatever collection of magics seem useful without regard for internal logic.

 

Three sorts of magic that operate in quite different ways, for quite different ends, does not automatically seem excessive to me. But it depends on what sort of setting you intend to create -- and no one else can answer that question for you.

 

That is up to you. If you don't design anything cool for other sorts of characters, then yes, the setting may seem front-loaded on magic.

 

Non-spellcasters can have "non-power Powers" that represent special weapon techniques or other extraordinary training. See Ultimate Martial Artist or Dark Champions for examples.

 

C) That actually does sound liike a good idea. It helps to preserve the mystique of each form of magic so they seem, well, magical, instead of a buffet of arbitrary Powers. Come up with whatever in-setting justification you want.

 

(Unless the whole point of your saga is that some PC is going to become the first multi-caster, as in Hardy's Master of Five Magics. But that's a whole 'nother issue -- and again, is something you must decide for yourself.)

 

Dean Shomshak

 

A) I didn't think of that, but it is cool actually.

 

 I do plan to give some nice stuff to the "Pure" Warrior types.  Almost magical, but not.  Think "Book of Nine Swords"

 

C) That was what I was thinking.  I played in a Palladium game where all the most powerful people were dual classed casters (Wiz/ Mind Mage or Wiz/ Warlock or [my favourite] Wiz/ Diabolist/ Summoner).   I'll have to come up with a reason for no cross over.....

[Asperion]

I was attempting to emphasize the point of how rare they are,  which explains other comments I made.  

 

Back to the original topic  - the "correct" amount of magic is the amount that you and your players believe is the correct amount. DO NOT let some arbitrary person in some random discussion board (even this one) say what is write or correct since they don't know the unique situation that is involved at your table. 

[Mr. R]

5 hours ago, Asperion said:

I was attempting to emphasize the point of how rare they are,  which explains other comments I made.  

 

Back to the original topic  - the "correct" amount of magic is the amount that you and your players believe is the correct amount. DO NOT let some arbitrary person in some random discussion board (even this one) say what is write or correct since they don't know the unique situation that is involved at your table. 

 

I'll take THAT advice to heart!

[Chris Goodwin]

I'm always thinking about magic systems.  

 

One recent idea is: everyone can buy a power, probably just one, and with it you get an Everyman Power Skill.  You're encouraged to buy the full skill, and in so doing you can turn your power into a "magic system" of sorts.

[Killer Shrike]

Personally, I prefer multiple magic systems in a Hero Fantasy setting because I feel it offers additional opportunities for character differentiation and highlights one of the Hero System's strongest features.

 

In general it can be difficult to balance different means of empowerment against one another in a given context such as a setting, particularly if those means of empowerment are implemented as orthogonal sub-systems of arbitrary rules. The Hero System and similar game systems influenced by it (or independently evolved) that have a strong notion of separation between fluff and mechanic and a common unified effects model provide a lot of lift to overcome that difficulty. 

 

And so on...I don't have time to wax loquacious on generalities, so I'll forbear further abstraction for now and move on to specifics.

 

The various Fantasy Hero magic systems I offer are meant to be used either together or separately. Some are better for particular power levels or tones, some are more suited to be used as general systems while others are more niche, and some are more by-the-book while others introduce custom mechanics or some structured hand-wavium. However, they are all basically compatible. 

 

As an exercise in dogfooding, back in the days when I was building the bulk of those systems, I made the custom setting of San'Dora with a meta goal of including every single one of those magic systems in one setting. I taped together a bunch of blank paper to make a blank map and drew in a centralized Mediterranean like coastline then passed the otherwise blank canvas around the table of my players at the time and they each extended the map's coastlines, delineated continents, added mountain ranges, forests, rivers, and further geographical embellishments. I then had them each make a list of their favorite genre sources and concepts (books, movies, comics, whatever) and each list 3 things they wanted incorporated into the setting, etc. Then I synthesized all of that into various ages and peoples to incorporate all of it and assigned various magic systems to different cultures, influencing the nature of those cultures and their histories based upon the qualia and power level of their native magic systems. And so on and so forth. This fed back into the magic design, inspiring many of the variants and specializations within the broader systems.

 

Thus, the various magics systems and their relative power levels, tone, etc, actively influenced that particular setting and vice versa, which results in a grounded / organic feel, reinforces cultural notions within the setting, suggests / drives historical detail, and generally acts as an important part of the worldbuilding process.

 

I would recommend a similar approach be taken to ground your chosen magic system(s) and other means to empowerment such as religious and knightly orders, martial styles, significant professions, and so on directly into your setting. And to be clear, not just the superficial "now" of your setting, but from the bottom up starting at the foundation of the setting's conceptual core, layering thru the history / back story thereof unto the present / current era where play will begin. Having taken this approach, a rich tapestry of character origins with verisimilitude and internal consistency will present itself from the resting state of your worldbuilding rather than being no more than a bullet list of tacked on, bolted together choices lacking resonance or contextual relevance.

 

And finally to get maximally specific: my Metier, Runecrafting, and Totemic Shamanism systems all work together reasonably well and I would not expect you to encounter any special problems if you allowed all three. The one caveat there is, as mentioned somewhere in the Runecrafting documentation, as a magic system that revolves around making magic items, you should first work out how you plan to handle magic items in your setting before deciding to incorporate Runecrafting as the assumptions I made when designing that system are based upon how I handled magic items (also documented on the site) which may differ from your assumptions / preferences. 

[Mr. R]

2 hours ago, Killer Shrike said:

Personally, I prefer multiple magic systems in a Hero Fantasy setting because I feel it offers additional opportunities for character differentiation and highlights one of the Hero System's strongest features.

 

In general it can be difficult to balance different means of empowerment against one another in a given context such as a setting, particularly if those means of empowerment are implemented as orthogonal sub-systems of arbitrary rules. The Hero System and similar game systems influenced by it (or independently evolved) that have a strong notion of separation between fluff and mechanic and a common unified effects model provide a lot of lift to overcome that difficulty. 

 

And so on...I don't have time to wax loquacious on generalities, so I'll forbear further abstraction for now and move on to specifics.

 

The various Fantasy Hero magic systems I offer are meant to be used either together or separately. Some are better for particular power levels or tones, some are more suited to be used as general systems while others are more niche, and some are more by-the-book while others introduce custom mechanics or some structured hand-wavium. However, they are all basically compatible. 

 

As an exercise in dogfooding, back in the days when I was building the bulk of those systems, I made the custom setting of San'Dora with a meta goal of including every single one of those magic systems in one setting. I taped together a bunch of blank paper to make a blank map and drew in a centralized Mediterranean like coastline then passed the otherwise blank canvas around the table of my players at the time and they each extended the map's coastlines, delineated continents, added mountain ranges, forests, rivers, and further geographical embellishments. I then had them each make a list of their favorite genre sources and concepts (books, movies, comics, whatever) and each list 3 things they wanted incorporated into the setting, etc. Then I synthesized all of that into various ages and peoples to incorporate all of it and assigned various magic systems to different cultures, influencing the nature of those cultures and their histories based upon the qualia and power level of their native magic systems. And so on and so forth. This fed back into the magic design, inspiring many of the variants and specializations within the broader systems.

 

Thus, the various magics systems and their relative power levels, tone, etc, actively influenced that particular setting and vice versa, which results in a grounded / organic feel, reinforces cultural notions within the setting, suggests / drives historical detail, and generally acts as an important part of the worldbuilding process.

 

I would recommend a similar approach be taken to ground your chosen magic system(s) and other means to empowerment such as religious and knightly orders, martial styles, significant professions, and so on directly into your setting. And to be clear, not just the superficial "now" of your setting, but from the bottom up starting at the foundation of the setting's conceptual core, layering thru the history / back story thereof unto the present / current era where play will begin. Having taken this approach, a rich tapestry of character origins with verisimilitude and internal consistency will present itself from the resting state of your worldbuilding rather than being no more than a bullet list of tacked on, bolted together choices lacking resonance or contextual relevance.

 

And finally to get maximally specific: my Metier, Runecrafting, and Totemic Shamanism systems all work together reasonably well and I would not expect you to encounter any special problems if you allowed all three. The one caveat there is, as mentioned somewhere in the Runecrafting documentation, as a magic system that revolves around making magic items, you should first work out how you plan to handle magic items in your setting before deciding to incorporate Runecrafting as the assumptions I made when designing that system are based upon how I handled magic items (also documented on the site) which may differ from your assumptions / preferences. 

 

 

Thank you!