Earlier vs. Current Editions of Champions

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

beyond 4th I don’t see much in that same support.

 

5th edition had a ton of stuff come out for it, but yeah few adventures, campaigns etc.

[Hugh Neilson]

First, we need to take the game design kit that is Hero and use it to make actual games that people can play.

 

Then, those games need support.  In the 21st century, Adventures are essential to game sales. The Adventure Path model has  proven itself.

 

To reach the mass market, the game has to reach beyond grognard gamers who will invest the time to build their own game world and design their own scenarios to time-pressured people with family and work responsibilities that limit their leisure time available to devote to the games.

[Sketchpad]

39 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

First, we need to take the game design kit that is Hero and use it to make actual games that people can play.

 

Then, those games need support.  In the 21st century, Adventures are essential to game sales. The Adventure Path model has  proven itself.

 

To reach the mass market, the game has to reach beyond grognard gamers who will invest the time to build their own game world and design their own scenarios to time-pressured people with family and work responsibilities that limit their leisure time available to devote to the games.

 

In the same respect, the game needs to be made more accessible as rulebooks as well, and be something game stores would carry. We can make adventures till the dice roll all 6s, but unless there's a solid rulebook behind them, no one will use them. 

[Grailknight]

1 minute ago, Sketchpad said:

 

In the same respect, the game needs to be made more accessible as rulebooks as well, and be something game stores would carry. We can make adventures till the dice roll all 6s, but unless there's a solid rulebook behind them, no one will use them. 

 

The rulebooks are actually pretty solid. They are just presented in a boring fashion. It seem like Steve lost his passion for the game after 5th Edition Until Superpowers Data Book and every subsequent product was more an obligation than a labor of love. That book has more personality than the whole of 6th Edition.

[Christopher R Taylor]

For my sake and trying to design more desirable products, could someone with specific examples, illustrations and very exact explanation show what they mean by "modern" and "interesting" and "up to date" layouts?   Pretend I'm an idiot and need to have it explained as if to a child.

[steriaca]

Agreed. Edition 6+needs...

1) To be supported with adventures, setting stuff, enemies books/monster books.

2) To be presented in a fun and intresting way.

3) To be easy to find the rules needed and the rules be easy to understand.

4) Needs both digital and physical editions. I kinda find it hard to read a digital copy, but then again I'm 51 years old, going on 52.

 

Can HERO be saved? I honestly don't know. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think Hero could easily see a renaissance, but only if gaming at large gains interest which right now?  I dunno.  Hard to get young people interested in anything that requires their own imagination instead of being spoon fed by a computer.

[fdw3773]

1 hour ago, steriaca said:

Can HERO be saved? I honestly don't know. 

It could enjoy a type of renaissance, as another had mentioned in this discussion thread. Beyond the obvious challenges of generating the fan interest and financial resources available for such a thing to occur, there are other factors that hinder this from happening.

 

First, the writing and presentation style of Hero products are not likely going to change significantly and will likely remain more like textbooks and academic references for the specific genre. This will continue to make it difficult to recruit interest for new players to where they want to buy the products for themselves. If the GM has to put in a significant amount of effort to simplify the system to make it playable and generate player interest, then there's a problem.

 

Second, there is a profound difference in what the fans want and what the company is willing to provide. The Kickstarter Champions Now is the best example of this where the company promoted the idea of featuring raw, unfinished art in the final product and it required a significant number of complaints raised by the backers in order to change how the final presentation was done. Even after this, the final product still featured some raw, unfinished art that made the book look sloppy. Even the cover art is questionable from an aesthetics perspective...while well illustrated, does it really reflect the superhero genre like the cover of the 5th or 6th Edition Champions source book or even Champions Complete? Not really. The Fantasy Hero Complete cover is equally disappointing, but someone in the organization made the final decision to publish it on the notion that fans would like the design, mediocre title font and all.

 

I don't necessarily think HERO needs saving per se, since there's no mention of it going bankrupt and ceasing to exist. It will likely continue to exist in fan forums, fan sites, and through digital publications. After all, if Palladium Books can survive in spite of everything that's happened and the questionable actions by its key personnel over the past several years, why can't HERO?

 

Granted, Palladium Books is now offering hard cover editions of their game books based on fan interest/demand, and being a book publishing company to begin with has its advantages. 😉

[steriaca]

Hero needs to publish again.  Not just relying on 3rd party publishers like Tiger Paw Press or Subrooks own publishing thing, but honest to goodness physical books published in a quality way and often enough that people looking at it won't ask "HERO Games? Whose that?"

 

HERO has to care about bringing new people into the hobby. Do a "second edition" of Champions Complete written in such a way as to not assume that the reader actually knows what a roleplaying game is and they can't or don't want to do everything themselves.

 

They don't have to actually care. They can just sit back, offer digital only everything and let Tiger and others do their work for them. Honestly I think they do care a little. But they don't have funds to put themselves back on their feet again. And I don't have a solution except physical publishing, which they don't have money for in the first place.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Hero is publishing.  They have several more books planned for this year, hopefully with some kickstarter action.  They already put out several already.  Its just all POD and pdf because they don't have the ready capital to put books in stores.  And... I mean, books don't sell much these days, sadly

[Scott Ruggels]

Here are some examples:

 

Third Party 5e Books:

 

 

 

Pathfinder

Homebrew using various template files

 

stat block

Even for the amateur Pathfinder and 5e Homebrew, it adheres to the publisher's style guide for font, page layouts and style of artwork (Digital paintings).  This is why I am saying that "New Champions Material", cannot be Black and white, or Line and tint illustrations. The Illustration need tobe full paint, for the most part, and look like frames from a DC or MCU Movie. Comic art that looks like the 80's and 90's in a book not from the 80's and 90's will look amateurish and cheap.

 

[Sketchpad]

6 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

The rulebooks are actually pretty solid. They are just presented in a boring fashion. It seem like Steve lost his passion for the game after 5th Edition Until Superpowers Data Book and every subsequent product was more an obligation than a labor of love. That book has more personality than the whole of 6th Edition.

 

I respectfully disagree about the rule books. Beyond appearance, content really could be cut down a bit and organized better IMHO. 

 

4 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

For my sake and trying to design more desirable products, could someone with specific examples, illustrations and very exact explanation show what they mean by "modern" and "interesting" and "up to date" layouts?   Pretend I'm an idiot and need to have it explained as if to a child.

 

In addition to Scott's examples, I present some layout from Mutants & Masterminds...

[Christopher R Taylor]

OK that's helpful but... look at the 6th edition Champions book; is that not what you get from it?  Splashy graphics, lots of color, even comic book panels, etc?

[assault]

2 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Even for the amateur Pathfinder and 5e Homebrew, it adheres to the publisher's style guide for font, page layouts and style of artwork (Digital paintings). 

 

 The obvious question is: do they make a profit, and how?

 

How many units do they sell, and for what price?

[Opal]

There's been something of a table-top renaissance going on for, maybe 8 or so years, now, and D&D came back big around 2016, and has been doing extremely well.  (Sadly, it was the execrable D&D 5th edition that was there to cash in on it.)

[Christopher R Taylor]

There is a big board gaming renaissance, but RPGs?  Kinda.  D&D is doing really well because they managed to get some very high profile people to play it on YouTube, generating interest.  Plus, they have a lot of money to throw at products even if they don't do well, to flood the market and pay top end artists.  I'd love to have Larry Elmore do a cover for me, but I don't have 2500 lying around and cannot reasonably expect to sell enough to make that back up.

[assault]

I had a conversation with a friend today. There is no way we could art enough together to publish together.

 

There is no way a non-hack artist would be able to do this work.

 

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

5 hours ago, assault said:

 The obvious question is: do they make a profit, and how?

 

How many units do they sell, and for what price?

The amateurs using the templates? No, there is no profit.  The Kickstarters , however, seem to be. 

 

https://www.hipstersanddragons.com/best-dnd-kickstarters-5e/
 

An unfortunately named website, but the data there is up to date. 
 

Another item I have noticed that there is a small but growing OSR community, and they are reprinting old tabletop wargame rules for miniatures that Pauli Kidd on YouTube has been showcasing.  There is definitely interest out there, but for Champions, I think taking a modest approach, with adventures, and slim rules would be better.  

 

[Scott Ruggels]

1 hour ago, assault said:

I had a conversation with a friend today. There is no way we could art enough together to publish together.

 

It might be taking advantage, but I know several Russian digital painters, classically trained, looking for work. 

 

1 hour ago, assault said:

 

There is no way a non-hack artist would be able to do this work.

 

 

Maybe, maybe not.  But there are non hacks out there. Just need to look at a lot of stuff and compare rates. Art Station, Deviant Art, Polycount, there are plenty of places to look.  

[Jhamin]

22 hours ago, carmachu said:

frankly the game doesn’t need another edition. It really needs SUPPORT. Adventures. Scenarios. Settings. Games like pathfinder have the adventure paths. 5e has adventure campaigns

 

I've been arguing this for a while.  Give me something to *do* with all these tools.  I don't need an Advanced Players Guide 3 or the big book of Talents.  I need some adventures.

Battlegrounds was *great*, but it was also published in 2003.

The Island of Doctor Destroyer was republished a few years ago, but its a retread of something from the 80s.

 

Let do some adventures!

[steriaca]

21 minutes ago, Jhamin said:

 

I've been arguing this for a while.  Give me something to *do* with all these tools.  I don't need an Advanced Players Guide 3 or the big book of Talents.  I need some adventures.

Battlegrounds was *great*, but it was also published in 2003.

The Island of Doctor Destroyer was republished a few years ago, but its a retread of something from the 80s.

 

Let do some adventures!

You say you want adventures. Look in the mirror. Are you writing adventures? No. Your complaining that HERO isn't giving you what you need. Why are you not writing any adventures?

 

I don't mean any hate, butbwhen you see the lack of something, some people view problems, others view opportunities. 

[Scott Ruggels]

20 minutes ago, steriaca said:

 

I don't mean any hate, butbwhen you see the lack of something, some people view problems, others view opportunities. 

Not everyone can write well.  Fewer can draw well.  Noticing a problem is valuable, but not everyone can create a solution.   

[Christopher R Taylor]

I want to do one more retread of 80s stuff (Escape from Stronghold) because in my opinion it is lacking and can be done better, and updated.  But I agree, new stuff is ideal.  I think Hero really ought to update and reprint their older adventures so they match 6th and are packaged in a manner that is more modern, but newer stuff is very desirable as well for older players.

 

But, I agree a lot with both Steriaca and Scott: if you have the ability, do it yourself.  If you want to see something published, and you can do it, then its time to make it happen.

[Sketchpad]

13 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

OK that's helpful but... look at the 6th edition Champions book; is that not what you get from it?  Splashy graphics, lots of color, even comic book panels, etc?

 

Nope. It's a great attempt, but the stat blocks really need to be more dynamic. One of the biggest problems and benefits from Hero is how character stats are laid out. Color is nice, but there needs to be a better way to represent stats IMHO. 

 

13 hours ago, assault said:

 The obvious question is: do they make a profit, and how?

 

How many units do they sell, and for what price?

 

Well, as a 3PP for M&M, I was making okay money off my little 3-4 page PDFs for 99¢ that included bio, stats and an illustration. But, I was also doing most of the writing, art, design and marketing, while my wife worked as editor. 

 

9 hours ago, assault said:

I had a conversation with a friend today. There is no way we could art enough together to publish together.

 

There is no way a non-hack artist would be able to do this work.

 

2 hours ago, steriaca said:

You say you want adventures. Look in the mirror. Are you writing adventures? No. Your complaining that HERO isn't giving you what you need. Why are you not writing any adventures?

 

I don't mean any hate, but when you see the lack of something, some people view problems, others view opportunities. 

 

I have to agree with Scott here. Not everyone can create art, work on page design, or write on a professional level. I think this was the advantage of Adventurer's Club and Digital HERO. It gave potential creators a chance to get their feet wet and see what they could create in a specific area. I was lucky enough to do some art and writing for DH, and even worked on a few covers before it ended. Even Haymaker had some great opportunities for others to work on projects and gain proper feedback.
That said, I totally think that someone could create books on their own given the proper skills and creative mind. Will their art look like the next Jim Lee or George Perez? Probably not, but you never know. One of the biggest issues I've found within this community is how judgmental it can be. You want adventures? Great. But give folks a break for at least getting something out there. I can't tell you how many times I've had to defend my art on this board alone unless it was free. And even then I got guff from some folks. Heck, even asking questions on here have occasionally set off a "you're not doing it right" vibe. It's awesome that we are all able to sit in comfort and lambaste folks you don't even know for shucks and chucks. TL;DR - Maybe if the community was more accepting and open to new ideas, there might be more 3PP books to choose from.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Nope. It's a great attempt, but the stat blocks really need to be more dynamic. One of the biggest problems and benefits from Hero is how character stats are laid out. Color is nice, but there needs to be a better way to represent stats IMHO. 

 

You seem to have a vision in your mind how you want things to look maybe this is something you can work on and present to other creators.  Personally I very much prefer consistent, clear, and easy to use over "looks keen" but maybe I am a minority.