Earlier vs. Current Editions of Champions

[Sketchpad]

10 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

You seem to have a vision in your mind how you want things to look maybe this is something you can work on and present to other creators.  Personally I very much prefer consistent, clear, and easy to use over "looks keen" but maybe I am a minority.

 

There's another thread somewhere on here where I put up some images on some ideas I was working on, Christopher. Unfortunately, any plans I have at this point to make products using the Hero system have been back shelved due to some of the reasons I stated above. To be honest, I've had some solid ideas for the past decade and I always tend to shelve them after visiting the boards. 

[carmachu]

21 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

For my sake and trying to design more desirable products, could someone with specific examples, illustrations and very exact explanation show what they mean by "modern" and "interesting" and "up to date" layouts?   Pretend I'm an idiot and need to have it explained as if to a child.

 Look at M&M for example. Each villain has multiple plot hooks. Side bars to explain things rules wise.

Add in no support for said game- no adventures. 

 

contrast that with 6th edition champions. It’s dry, boring. More a text book. None of the fun of day the big blue book of 4th

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

To be honest, I've had some solid ideas for the past decade and I always tend to shelve them after visiting the boards. 

 

Let me put it this way: if you were to put some ideas up here where people looking can see them and suggest things, that would help those of us who are writing content.

 

Quote

Look at M&M for example. Each villain has multiple plot hooks. Side bars to explain things rules wise.

 

...that's exactly what 6th edition Champions has.  Champions Complete is pared way down so it has less but that's not the Champions release originally for 6th with the color art and zowie graphics and neato character writeups.  Yet you reject it for being too dry, suggesting strongly to me that its the writing and content, not the neato presentation that's key here, since its, you know a rule book.

[steriaca]

Sketchpad, don't let others bring you down about your artwork. "It's not comic book enough." If you get that, reply with "what do you call comic books then". Not every comic book.looks the same after all. Black and white Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles looks different from Amazing Spider-man who looks different from Batman which looks different from Cherry Poptart. (Only one of the above mentioned comics is porno.) Don't worry about it...people are going to judge no matter what.

[Sketchpad]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Let me put it this way: if you were to put some ideas up here where people looking can see them and suggest things, that would help those of us who are writing content.

 

 

...that's exactly what 6th edition Champions has.  Champions Complete is pared way down so it has less but that's not the Champions release originally for 6th with the color art and zowie graphics and neato character writeups.  Yet you reject it for being too dry, suggesting strongly to me that its the writing and content, not the neato presentation that's key here, since its, you know a rule book.

 

The books are too dry. Look at the formatting that Scott and I posted and tell me what Hero book looks like that? 6e did not look anything like it. It was a move in the right direction, but only 1" in the Megascale market that exists. Nothing against Steve, but many of the books are inflated that really don't need to be. In today's marketplace, a book needs to grab customers visually as well as mechanically. 

 

5 minutes ago, steriaca said:

Sketchpad, don't let others bring you down about your artwork. "It's not comic book enough." If you get that, reply with "what do you call comic books then". Not every comic book.looks the same after all. Black and white Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles looks different from Amazing Spider-man who looks different from Batman which looks different from Cherry Poptart. (Only one of the above mentioned comics is porno.) Don't worry about it...people are going to judge no matter what.

 

Oh, it's not just the artwork. In fact, the times when someone has said, "that artwork sucks" and I was privy to it, I was more than happy to confront the poster (both on and off these boards). My honest problem is how approachable the community is as a whole. I used to be able to come on here and ask a build question and get some fun answers and discussion. Now I get "you shouldn't do that in your game" or some other snarky response because someone doesn't like a playstyle. Screw that. Why would I ever ask a rule question again? So I can watch a simple question turn into a lecture on playstyles? Or the "right way to play your game"? No thanks. It's one of the reasons I don't post here as much and left the Discord community. 

[fdw3773]

I would be happy if Hero Games simply allowed buyers to print hardcover copies of previous Hero System products via Lulu, such as the company that published Basic Fantasy Role-Playing Game (https://www.basicfantasy.org/buytherules.html) 😉

 

 

 

 

[Sketchpad]

9 minutes ago, fdw3773 said:

I would be happy if the Hero Games simply allowed buyers to print hardcover copies of previous Hero System products via Lulu, such as the company that published Basic Fantasy Role-Playing Game (https://www.basicfantasy.org/buytherules.html) 😉

 

 

 

 

 

Heck, I'd be happy of they allowed it through DTRPG.

[Lord Liaden]

Regarding the desirability of adventures, here are published adventures for Sixth Edition Champions widely available right now:

 

https://www.herogames.com/store/product/506-evilution-unchained-pdf/

 

https://www.herogames.com/store/product/111-sands-of-time-pdf/

 

https://www.herogames.com/store/product/87-imaginary-friends-pdf/

 

https://www.herogames.com/store/product/94-king-of-the-mountain-pdf/

 

https://www.herogames.com/store/product/107-pretty-hate-machines-pdf/

 

https://www.herogames.com/store/product/53-the-crossroads-blues/

 

https://www.herogames.com/store/product/28-unkindness-pdf/

 

https://www.herogames.com/store/product/23-war-of-worldcraft-pdf/

 

[Lord Liaden]

For folks here on the forums who are looking for Champions adventures to run themselves, and who use or don't mind converting from Fifth Edition, Digital Hero has a sizeable selection, almost always with maps, usually with fully-statted and illustrated NPCs, at more than reasonable prices. (There are Fantasy Hero, Star Hero, and other genre adventures, too, but the selection is more limited.)

 

VIPER'S FOLDING NEST: VIPER has discovered the technology for the highly sought "teleport escape." But the technology did not come alone, and its price is perhaps too high even for VIPER... DH 1, PAGE 48

YOUR HOROSCOPE FOR: AQUARIUS : An ice-themed Champions adventure, just the perfect thing for such cold weather. DH 7, PAGE 26

INFECTIOUS ENTHUSIASM: This complete adventure even includes the heroes, and is suitable to run as a convention game for beginners to Champions. DH 9, PAGE 34

YOUR HOROSCOPE FOR: GEMINI: Super-villains on sale - buy one, get one free. Oh, wait, those villains are actually evil opposites of your heroes…DH 10, PAGE 21

UNEARTHED MECHANA: Villainous toys aren’t the only opponents in this adventure for a team of standard Champions superheroes. DH 12, PAGE 41

YOUR HOROSCOPE FOR: SCORPIO: Giant scorpions terrorize the city, but who is the all-American couple that keeps turning up along with them? DH 17, PAGE 22

FORCED EVOLUTION: A madman is threatening to turn the entire city into animal-men under his control. Can the city's Vindicators team stop him? DH 17, PAGE 28

AND THERE WAS BLOOD EVERYWHERE!: A giant blur on the satellite photo of Africa leads to unthinkable horrors for your Champions team. DH 24, PAGE 12

TSUNAMI: This Champions adventure sets your heroes against a group of villains planning to destroy the city in a gigantic wave. DH 27, PAGE 30

PROJECT: PREDATOR : Amnesiac mutants try to escape their captors and remain free in this mutants-on-the-run convention game. DH 29, PAGE 23

MURDER ON MONSTER ISLAND : Giant monsters of the world have been shipped off to Monster Island, under the supervision of Bureau 17. DH 32, PAGE 31

THROUGH A MIRROR DARKLY: The real Champions have been replaced by their evil counterparts. Your team of heroes is sent to the rescue. DH 38, PAGE 28

WAR OF THE WORLDS: CHAMPIONS : It’s 1902, and the Martians have invaded. Your steampunk superheroes are the last hope of humanity! DH 39, PAGE 34

CHAINS OF DOOM: Nazi gold, alchemy, legendary dwarves, occult schoolgirls, the mafia... What more could a Champions adventure need? DH 40, PAGE 20

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Look at the formatting that Scott and I posted and tell me what Hero book looks like that?

 

If you want, I can post images from Champions 6th edition that look very much like that.  It has everything you  need to run games, with tons of advice partly written by Aaron Allston.  Did it sell well, was it flying off the shelves?  I dunno.  But they really did try to get it done and I don't think it was enormously successful, sadly.

[Sketchpad]

1 minute ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

If you want, I can post images from Champions 6th edition that look very much like that.  It has everything you  need to run games, with tons of advice partly written by Aaron Allston.  Did it sell well, was it flying off the shelves?  I dunno.  But they really did try to get it done and I don't think it was enormously successful, sadly.

 

I have the books. They do not look like that. *shrug*

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I have the books. 

 

Not Hero Rules 1&2 but CHAMPIONS 6th edition.  The Champions book, not the big two rule books.  This one

 

I am not trying to be a hardass about this, I am genuinely trying to get a clear, specific idea on how to better present and sell books.  I want to produce things people like and want to use to play.  I want you to help me make better products.  I tried really hard with Island of Dr Destroyer to have a light tone, fun graphics, and feel like something superhero-y.  I don't know how well I did.

[Sketchpad]

1 minute ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Not Hero Rules 1&2 but CHAMPIONS 6th edition.  The Champions book, not the big two rule books.  This one

 

I am not trying to be a hardass about this, I am genuinely trying to get a clear, specific idea on how to better present and sell books.  I want to produce things people like and want to use to play.  I want you to help me make better products.  I tried really hard with Island of Dr Destroyer to have a light tone, fun graphics, and feel like something superhero-y.  I don't know how well I did.

 

Yes. I have the book. I have not read a copy of your iteration of the IDD and could not give feedback specifically on that. But, in regards to the Champions (6e) book, beyond the occasional comic panel, how is it that different from the "Twins" in format?

[Lord Liaden]

Looking at both books, Champions is more colorful, with topic headers and text sidebars highlighted with color rather than black and white, in shades of red to yellow instead of the rather uniform blue used in the 6E rule books. There's also more variety in the fonts used for the different chapter and section headers. And there's a full-color "comic panel" on average, I would estimate, every four pages -- sometimes more, sometimes less. I can't speak to whether you would consider that "occasional."

[carmachu]

On 7/4/2022 at 9:15 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

Hero is publishing.  They have several more books planned for this year, hopefully with some kickstarter action.  They already put out several already.  Its just all POD and pdf because they don't have the ready capital to put books in stores.  And... I mean, books don't sell much these days, sadly

what newer pod titles do they have?

[carmachu]

11 hours ago, steriaca said:

You say you want adventures. Look in the mirror. Are you writing adventures? No. Your complaining that HERO isn't giving you what you need. Why are you not writing any adventures?

 

I don't mean any hate, butbwhen you see the lack of something, some people view problems, others view opportunities. 

Maybe perhaps most of us don’t have them the time like we did in HS and college to do more heavy writing. A job. Spouse. Kids. Other responsibilities eating up most of the time and we want to enjoy our hobby rather then it being a second job.

 

whichbis why things like pathfinder, 5e, M&M and other games take off because a lot of that work is done. Hell even the OSR community has tons of support.

 

you might not mean to hate, but that attitude is one of the reasons hero sinks. Unwillingness to see what others do right and blame the base

[steriaca]

30 minutes ago, carmachu said:

Maybe perhaps most of us don’t have them the time like we did in HS and college to do more heavy writing. A job. Spouse. Kids. Other responsibilities eating up most of the time and we want to enjoy our hobby rather then it being a second job.

 

whichbis why things like pathfinder, 5e, M&M and other games take off because a lot of that work is done. Hell even the OSR community has tons of support.

 

you might not mean to hate, but that attitude is one of the reasons hero sinks. Unwillingness to see what others do right and blame the base

Then what can be done to tell management to change? Also, even if the management wants to change, how can they afford to change?

 

The older we get, the closer we go to retirement age, where a lot of time opens up. I'm 51 myself and looking forward to retirement in 15 years. But we are creeping into death. And new people entering our favorite rpg system? It doesn't look promising. 

 

We can say "do this" and "do that" till our faces are blue. That won't change anything till management decides to do it. And they have to balance attracting new players with not upsetting old players. I personally say screw it...we are litterly dieting, focus on attracting new players.

 

But I can't say how. I don't know how. I've been without a gaming group for so long.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Unwillingness to see what others do right and blame the base

 

I see it more as trying to encourage people to step up and offer what they can than any blame.  Its easy to complain on a message board, but harder to step up, if you're able.  After all adventures and campaigns and such are often written by fans of games for the company rather than some sort of staff working at a game company.  Game companies tend to be quite small and have very few employees.  At its height TSR had over a dozen employees, many being in-house artists.

 

So calling for people to take up the keyboard and the pen to help things out is hardly some sort of blame.

[Sketchpad]

10 hours ago, steriaca said:

Then what can be done to tell management to change? Also, even if the management wants to change, how can they afford to change?

 

The older we get, the closer we go to retirement age, where a lot of time opens up. I'm 51 myself and looking forward to retirement in 15 years. But we are creeping into death. And new people entering our favorite rpg system? It doesn't look promising. 

 

We can say "do this" and "do that" till our faces are blue. That won't change anything till management decides to do it. And they have to balance attracting new players with not upsetting old players. I personally say screw it...we are litterly dieting, focus on attracting new players.

 

But I can't say how. I don't know how. I've been without a gaming group for so long.

 

What can be done? Well, I think some of the topics some of us have covered in this post might help. In all honesty, some of this has little to do with the company, and more to do with the community. 

 

7 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I see it more as trying to encourage people to step up and offer what they can than any blame.  Its easy to complain on a message board, but harder to step up, if you're able.  After all adventures and campaigns and such are often written by fans of games for the company rather than some sort of staff working at a game company.  Game companies tend to be quite small and have very few employees.  At its height TSR had over a dozen employees, many being in-house artists.

 

So calling for people to take up the keyboard and the pen to help things out is hardly some sort of blame.

 

There's a tonality which can be inflected in the posts here. A great example is telling folks how to run their game, or that this "needs" to happen. When did we get to the point where someone is going to tell anyone how to run a game? Sure... if someone asks "Hey, I don't know what I'm doing, could someone help me run this?" then that's implied. But asking how to build something? Heck, even asking for feedback on point costs have occasionally drifted in "you shouldn't use that character." What gives X person the right to tell Y person what their game is? Tonally, this is what makes the community seem toxic. I've been playing Hero since the mid-80s on and off, and I'm usually intrigued to see how someone might build this or that, no matter how long they've been playing, or what their preferred version is. But when folks just crap on ideas because they don't like it? Not even interested in a response. 

Long story short... you want new players? Be better ambassadors to your system. This board used to be a welcoming place, but that was a while ago. Show people why Hero is a great system, and that the community can be better. 

[steriaca]

Sketchpad has a point. It is time we stop saying "don't do it this way" and say "ok...it's your game".

 

Take two ACTIVE Hero players, give them the same half build character and challenge them to complete the character, and you'll get an entire different build. As you should, because people are different.  They are going to create each character differently. Run each game differently. 

 

I would like to think I'm not one of these stick in the mud people who gets mad and says "no...do it this way", but I probably fall into that trap myself. 

[fdw3773]

1 hour ago, Sketchpad said:

Long story short... you want new players? Be better ambassadors to your system. This board used to be a welcoming place, but that was a while ago. Show people why Hero is a great system, and that the community can be better. 

I'm trying, Sketchpad! I've been posting a variety of my game support materials for Champions and more recently Fantasy Hero for fans to download for quite some time now. My initial post was expressing personal frustration and the difficulty to recruit new players since the current product reads like a textbook (5th/6th Ed.) and the previous product I want to use that could probably help my efforts (3rd) can't be a print on demand project to a hardcover edition via Lulu.

 

In the meantime, I'm drawing from 3rd Edition while simplifying 5th/6th Edition to hopefully gather new player interest in my part of Omaha, NE. 🙂

[Sketchpad]

6 minutes ago, fdw3773 said:

I'm trying, Sketchpad! I've been posting a variety of my game support materials for Champions and more recently Fantasy Hero for fans to download for quite some time now. My initial post was expressing personal frustration and the difficulty to recruit new players since the current product reads like a textbook (5th/6th Ed.) and the previous product I want to use that could probably help my efforts (3rd) can't be a print on demand project to a hardcover edition via Lulu.

 

In the meantime, I'm drawing from 3rd Edition while simplifying 5th/6th Edition to hopefully gather new player interest in my part of Omaha, NE. 🙂

 

Funny thing about the books... they're both on Amazon and DTRPG as POD products. Both companies offer hardcover IIRC. I did some research while looking into my own publishing needs and found it funny that the HC volumes weren't offered as such. And, as you've seen, you're not alone in the format and layout of the books. 

[fdw3773]

35 minutes ago, Sketchpad said:

 

Funny thing about the books... they're both on Amazon and DTRPG as POD products. Both companies offer hardcover IIRC. I did some research while looking into my own publishing needs and found it funny that the HC volumes weren't offered as such. And, as you've seen, you're not alone in the format and layout of the books. 

I just re-checked Amazon and DriveThruRPG and only Hero System 6th Edition resources are available as print-on-demand, softcover format.

 

Unfortunately for me, the books that I'm interested in, Champions 3rd Edition, Champions 5th Edition, Fantasy Hero 5th Edition, Book of Dragons, and the Hero System 5th Edition Bestiary remain as PDF only.

[BNakagawa]

4 hours ago, steriaca said:

Sketchpad has a point. It is time we stop saying "don't do it this way" and say "ok...it's your game".

 

Take two ACTIVE Hero players, give them the same half build character and challenge them to complete the character, and you'll get an entire different build. As you should, because people are different.  They are going to create each character differently. Run each game differently. 

 

I would like to think I'm not one of these stick in the mud people who gets mad and says "no...do it this way", but I probably fall into that trap myself. 

 

The core issue is that by nature, every Hero System game is it's own thing. If the average CV in your game is 8 and the average in another game is 10, characters are not going to play the same. One point of CV difference can make a big difference over the long haul. Same with skill rolls, defenses, attacks, movement rates, etc. Is your character good at this? Overpowered? Deficient? You'll never know out of context because different groups have different preferences.

 

For a long time, I wished that published characters and villains would have used a delta notation for descriptions where their OCV would be defined as [+- X] which is a modifier on whatever number represented average at your table. Ditto with damage classes, defenses, etc. That way, Grond is always stupidly strong and tough, no matter what the average numbers your group uses. (I have seen some truly redonkulus outliers)

[Scott Ruggels]

 It's becoming apparent in this thread  that what would work is a 3rd. Edition Hero book with modern layout and formatting. Even while Duke has had success with 2nd edition with his youth group, a "powered by Hero" type game with 3rd edition rules (Low complexity, low page count), and a simultaneous release of a minimum of two adventure books (magazines ala Adventure paths?), seems to be the Optimal path.  Anything after 3rd edition is pushing the page count  too high.  Leave the toolbox approach to the core rules that already exist, and incluse only what the genre requires.

What sorts of games?  Well Champions of course as it's the most active. Fantasy could work.  Modern Action would work. It basically become a "Streaming Television game". What else might work, if one remembers that we can have no licenses, and no large page counts?  Try to think about what would sell to people that game on line and don't have a lot of time for prep, rather than your "favorite" genre.  Also how wide or narrow does one go for the genre? No tool box, but a little flexibility might be nice.